Metal dome should always go with metal cone? Is this a rule?

[Jay_WJ]

Should a metal dome always go with only a metal cone? Is this a rule? Or a misconception?

For example, is the Seas 27TBFC/G metal-like sounding? So should it always be better matched with a metal cone in a 2-way design? How about matching the 27TBFC/G with the Peerless 7" HDS Nomex driver? A bad idea?

[augerpro]

Should a metal dome always go with only a metal cone? Is this a rule? Or a misconception?

For example, is the Seas 27TBFC/G metal-like sounding? So should it always be better matched with a metal cone in a 2-way design? How about matching the 27TBFC/G with the Peerless 7" HDS Nomex driver? A bad idea?

I'm going to test this out. I have the Peerless 832873 and Dayton RS150 I'm going to try with some SS9800 and Vifa D26NC55. I wouldn't think there is any good reason not to pair metal tweet with paper woofer. Afterall people pair the metal woofers and soft tweeters all the time.

[cotdt]

I've tried a paper woofer and metal tweeter and it sounded great, but then I tried a metal woofer and textile tweeter and I didn't like it.

[Jay_WJ]

Thanks for your replies.

I found that John at Zaph audio always used a metal dome with a metal cone. But he never implied that he did so for the reason of sound match of the drivers. Rather, my impression is that he did that because metal drivers went well with each other because of their same metallic looks. What do you think?

[TurboFC3S]

Haha, too funny ... you tell me I don't know what I'm talking about on avsforum, then come here to find out.

I guess that's why I don't like avsforum, everybody automatically has to try and act like they're a guru at whatever they're talking about.

[cjd]

FWIW, I've never heard any rule about this. I've done metal with metal, metal with silk. Paper with silk. Um. That's it so far. But I've heard paper with metal. Though I don't know where ribbons fall officially. Poly with ribbon, poly with silk... yeah.

C

[TurboFC3S]

This started because we were talking about the Parts Express Usher kit on avsforum.com. Jay said he's rather swap in a TBFC/G or Peerless HDS with 'simple crossover modifications'. I said that would be silly to do, because you'd have to start from scratch on the crossover ... and if you wanted to upgrade the tweet then use the Usher 9950, it would be much easier to integrate.

For some reason Jay interpreted it as me saying never use a metal dome with paper cone, which was never my point. Only point was that the TBFC/G isn't the best match for the Usher, and certainly not in the context of swapping into that kit.

[Jay_WJ]

Only point was that the TBFC/G isn't the best match for the Usher

Have you tried that exact combination? If not, how can you be that sure? As people said above, there is no rule.

Good job, you found this thread! If people's opinion accumulated enough, I meant to point this thread to you. That was my intention. Let's see what people thinik of.

[Jay_WJ]

TurboFC3S, apparently you started this DIY audio not long ago. Let's be humble and listen to what people say about this issue.

[Jay_WJ]

I'm thinking of using Seas 27TBFC/G and Usher 8945A in a two-way bookshelf design. PE's D'Appollito design gave me an insight, though I cannot use his CO as is. Perhaps I'll end up using all different values for CO parts except his choice of electrical 3rd order. Will this be a good project? I like metal dome sound but will also consider Peerless HDS tweeter.

[TurboFC3S]

I don't know why this is such a big deal to you. It's not like I said there'd be a tear in the space-time continuum if you mate the TBFC/G with an Usher paper cone, just said it's not the best match ... and especially since the context was of the PE kit. I have no doubt you could put the two together and have them sound good, but there would be no point to try and adapt it to the PE kit, you'd have to start from square one and redesign.

My point is totally valid, please stop trying to make this into an issue that doesn't exist.

[Jay_WJ]

I don't see your point here. Look at my last post above. To me, now this is purely a DIY project. I'm just asking for people's opinion. I already got your opinion. Thanks.

[TurboFC3S]

I'm thinking of using Seas 27TBFC/G and Usher 8945A in a two-way bookshelf design. PE's D'Appollito design gave me an insight, though I cannot use his CO as is. Perhaps I'll end up using all different values for CO parts except his choice of electrical 3rd order. Will this be a good project? I like metal dome sound but will also consider Peerless HDS tweeter.

The other point I made on avsforum was that if you want a metal dome, try the Dayton RS28a. It's less 'metal' sounding than the TBFC/G, and would likely integrate better - and you wouldn't have to pad it down as much either. The HDS, as I said, is a very good choice.

You've made it clear over there that your only decision making is based on John and Mark's test data. IMHO that's just silly, you really need to hear some of these drivers before making up your mind about them. You ruled out the TDFC because you said it had higher distortion, that's just silly. It's a great tweeter too, and in certain applications can sound better than tweeters with less distortion.

If driver measurements were all that mattered, Focal stuff would be worthless and AV123 X-LS speakers would be trash.

[Jay_WJ]

The other point I made on avsforum was that if you want a metal dome, try the Dayton RS28a. It's less 'metal' sounding than the TBFC/G

Is this people's consensus? Then I think EVeryone should choose the RS28a over the TBFC/G, unless s/he is crazy about 'metal' sounding tweeter.

[Jay_WJ]

You've made it clear over there that your only decision making is based on John and Mark's test data. IMHO that's just silly, you really need to hear some of these drivers before making up your mind about them.

I didn't make up mind yet. That's why I want to ask around.

And the test data are important to me. What I want most from speakers is clarity and transparency, that should be directly related to distortion numbers.

[TurboFC3S]

Listen, there's no such thing as 'best'. The TBFC/G is an amazing tweeter as I have said to you about 10 times today, as long as it's in the right application.

The only way you're really going to learn that is with your own personal experience. So make an experient out of it - but the PE 701 kit and assemble as is, then design an x-over to swap in the TBFC/G tweet and compare. No amount of reading distortion graphs or internet forums can compare to hearing for yourself.

[Jay_WJ]

Of course, I understand your point. I just want to hear other people's opinion about my choice of drivers and their match before I pull the trigger. What's wrong with that? Your point has been well taken.

[cotdt]

The PE 701 design looks great and you can't go wrong with it. But if it was me, here's what I'll do:

-Go for the phase plug "P" version of the Usher woofer
-Use the Scanspeak AirCir tweeter
-cross over around 1300Hz using a cauer-elliptical network

I bet it would sound amazing. Extremely low distortion and airy highs. That Usher has 10mm of linear xmax and should pound real hard.

[cjd]

-Go for the phase plug "P" version of the Usher woofer
-Use the Scanspeak AirCir tweeter
-cross over around 1300Hz using a cauer-elliptical network

Seems a good idea to me...

[TurboFC3S]

Sure, if you want to spend 3x as much ...

[cjd]

:lol:

I don't like the TBFC/G so. But that doesn't mean it's a bad tweeter, it's superb actually. I just prefer the silk sibling, the TDFC. Something in the TBFC hits me in a bad spot, probably the breakup peak. Sounds wonderful as long as I can listen to it. Were I looking at something almost exactly the same as that kit but not quite, I'd just build it as designed.

If you're doing your own design, you're doing your own. You can pick based on your own preferences, etc. That's the point. You may get some hints by looking at a different design, yes. But often even a seemingly small change isn't so much.

C

[AJINFLA]

Should a metal dome always go with only a metal cone? No
Is this a rule? No
Or a misconception? Yes
For example, is the Seas 27TBFC/G metal-like sounding? No
So should it always be better matched with a metal cone in a 2-way design? No
How about matching the 27TBFC/G with the Peerless 7" HDS Nomex driver? If it fits the design parameters, why not?
A bad idea? Why?

I found that John at Zaph audio always used a metal dome with a metal cone. But he never implied that he did so for the reason of sound match of the drivers. Rather, my impression is that he did that because metal drivers went well with each other because of their same metallic looks. What do you think?

Krutke is big on the "bling" factor with his designs. So it makes sense that he would match the shiny metal Seas drivers in his design. I know he carries on about measurements this and measurements that, but in the end, its all about the looks. Notice how the "split" cone SS gets matched to the "wavy" cone XT in his HD5. Or how much the Seas woofers look like those WG's in the TMM. Coincidence? I doubt it.

cheers,

AJ

[Jay_WJ]

Thanks, AJ. You confirmed my thought.

[Jay_WJ]

:lol:

I don't like the TBFC/G so. But that doesn't mean it's a bad tweeter, it's superb actually. I just prefer the silk sibling, the TDFC. Something in the TBFC hits me in a bad spot, probably the breakup peak. Sounds wonderful as long as I can listen to it.

Thanks for your suggestion and I respect your preference---not like saying "the TBFC/G is metallic sounding, so it is not better matched with a paper cone."

[ThomasW]

We can and will leave the AVS cat fighting on AVS. Constructive comments are always welcome. Sarcasm, baiting, and snide remarkes get threads locked and people banned.

AJ,

it might be a good idea to put a big smiley after your comments regarding Zaph. Those that know him understand your joke, those that don't might think you were serious....

[cjd]

it might be a good idea to put a big smiley after your comments regarding Zaph. Those that know him understand your joke, those that don't might think you were serious....

Oh, that's totally zaph. Not a joke, and you know it. :P :lol: I mean, he doesn't like ribbons because they're so thin they make the speakers look fat...

:B

[AJINFLA]

AJ,

it might be a good idea to put a big smiley after your comments regarding Zaph. Those that know him understand your joke, those that don't might think you were serious....

Who? Me? Joking....?

[jkrutke]

Krutke is big on the "bling" factor with his designs. So it makes sense that he would match the shiny metal Seas drivers in his design. I know he carries on about measurements this and measurements that, but in the end, its all about the looks. Notice how the "split" cone SS gets matched to the "wavy" cone XT in his HD5. Or how much the Seas woofers look like those WG's in the TMM. Coincidence? I doubt it.

Holy crap, that's the most ridiculous thing I've heard, and completely wrong. What is this, beat on Zaph day? What bothers me more is that people are actually listening to your BS posts.

I've got great reasons for selecting drivers in each project, NONE of which have anything to do with their looks AT ALL.

I like the Nextel Excel woofers, but you're not going to find me pairing the matching painted tweeters with it any day. (just tested the Crescendo)

I could sit here and go over the reasons for picking each tweeter in my project, but that would be dignifying a post that doesn't deserve a response. For those that can read, in most of my projects, I specify the reasons for choosing the drivers.

BTW, if that was a joke post, I apologize for getting my undies in a bundle. The thing is, I love comedy, and it's usually the other way around - people don't get my jokes and take me too seriously. :B

[AJINFLA]

Alright, I hate to do this, but here is a pic of Krutkes SUV that he drives to work at his always crowded office parking lot. Now, Jay, you tell me why he's using silver metal tweeters with silver metal woofers? Measurements?


cheers,

AJ

[Jay_WJ]

Wow! Thanks, Zaph, for your post. Don't worry. I never suspected that you chose drivers in your design just for their looks. But I doubted that you matched the TBFC/G with aluminum woofers simply because you believed the "metallic sounding" TBFC/G had better not go with a paper cone.

[cjd]

You know that ride is filled with lots-o-subs because Zaph has such a long-standing love affair with that thumpin sound as he tools around.

C

[Nathan P]

I think you can have any combination sound good if you match them right. Certain woofers don't integrate well with certain tweeters, I don't think it's based off of cone material, just the particular tweeter and woofer involved. Also, I really hate the lambo doors on anything not Italian... It's just dumb. Plus, that thing's rear wheels look really small compared to the fronts for some reason.

[Bent]

He's got the rear hydraulic lifts jacked, for the snoop-dawg look. :rofl:

[Nathan P]

I hate hydraulics too...