Iron on glue question...

[Jim Holtz]

I've always used contact cement in the past and had good luck as long as I used Oakwood BFV veneer. Not so good with other brands. Anyway, I'd like to try the iron on method this project. I was going to use Heatlock glue that is designed for iron on use but it seems the experienced finishers that post on this forum just use plain old Titebond. Can anyone give a comparison between Heatlock and Titebond for iron on use? In other words, which is better, easier to use and works right every time.

Thanks for the feedback!

Jim

[JonMarsh]

I haven't used Heatlock or even heard of it, so I'll have to check that out. I've been an iron-on Titebond user since the early 70's, so you could say I'm stuck in a rut with what works, and works well, incluidng with oil finishes. Reading the specs and description it sounds like it does exactly what Titebond does... from an inventory management viewpoint, why have two glues where one will do both jobs? (of course, Heatlock may be a good general purpose glue, too, comparable to Titebond II- don't know)

Here's a good FAQ for Heatlock which is a good guide also for iron-on veneering.

Heatlock FAQ

[cjd]

FWIW I've been using white glue lately for a lot of my woodworking. Same stuff but longer set time and no staining.

C

[Jim Holtz]

I haven't used Heatlock or even heard of it, so I'll have to check that out. I've been an iron-on Titebond user since the early 70's, so you could say I'm stuck in a rut with what works, and works well, incluidng with oil finishes. Reading the specs and description it sounds like it does exactly what Titebond does... from an inventory management viewpoint, why have two glues where one will do both jobs? (of course, Heatlock may be a good general purpose glue, too, comparable to Titebond II- don't know)

Here's a good FAQ for Heatlock which is a good guide also for iron-on veneering.

Heatlock FAQ

Thanks for the feedback Jon. I have over 1/2 gallon of Titebond that I'll go ahead and use. I see Heatlock suggests letting the glue set up for several hours before applying the veneer. Is that your experience with Titebond too? One final question. Is there a time limit on applying the veneer where the glue will no longer activate?

I believe I saw a "sticky" where Pete gave instructions for applying veneer using the iron on method. I'll go read.

Thanks for the feedback! I appreciate it! :T

Jim

[Rolex]

I have used the titebond method with great results. I apply the first coat and let dry completely. Then apply a second coat and when it is about 85-90% dry (30-40 minutes), I apply it to the speaker. That seems to work better for me than letting the second coat dry for hours. I'm very happy with the results.

[timber_mg]

I let PVA just about gel (sun works nicely) and apply the veneer when still slightly sticky and let the IRON evaporate the rest (one sees and to a lesser extent smells it doing so).

A Key to success is the even application of the adhesive and taking care of MDF end-grain.

Letting PVA dry completely before ironing is not a good solution in the long run ime. Specialist glues might be different.

[JonMarsh]

I let PVA just about gel (sun works nicely) and apply the veneer when still slightly sticky and let the IRON evaporate the rest (one sees and to a lesser extent smells it doing so).

A Key to success is the even application of the adhesive and taking care of MDF end-grain.

Letting PVA dry completely before ironing is not a good solution in the long run ime. Specialist glues might be different.

Completely agreed on all points! I use a bathroom squeegee for applying and spreading the Titebond evenly- inexpensive, and works very well.

[Chris7]

FWIW I've been using white glue lately for a lot of my woodworking. Same stuff but longer set time and no staining.

I don't recommend using white glue for iron-on veneering. I've experimented with it (on the reasoning that white glue is purer PVA -- fewer additives) than carpenter's yellow glue, but the longer set time led to adhesion problems in a couple of places. You can still get it to work, it's not a big problem, but I just found yellow glue to be a bit better.

[capslock]

bathroom squeegee

what's that? a rubber duck?

[capslock]

I don't recommend using white glue for iron-on veneering. I've experimented with it (on the reasoning that white glue is purer PVA -- fewer additives) than carpenter's yellow glue, but the longer set time led to adhesion problems in a couple of places. You can still get it to work, it's not a big problem, but I just found yellow glue to be a bit better.

What are the additives in yellow glue?

[timber_mg]

It takes about 5-10 minutes for the glue to gel under our African sun (after using masking tape to make sure the veneer doesn't curl too badly) and two layers on the MDF seem to do the trick once one has found something that works.

I use a piece of MDF or other wood (almost a scraper) to spread the glue making two passes over most areas.

If the veneer is very curly (bird's eye maple....eish) apply a very thin second coat(almost film) to it after the first has dried a fair bit and allowed teh veneer to uncurl a little...the thickness PVA that seems to work doesn't take longer than 5-10 minutes to gel under the sun but it can take up to 30 minutes when it's cold and raining.

The glue sets by evaporating water and leaving behind PVA. The yellow stuff (called professional here in South Africa) I haven't worked with but it might be a different chemical base completely or the good ol'e solvent/alcohol trick (evaporates more quickly). The heat of the iron (and the cotton t-shirt) make the rest evaporate reasonably quickly, but it is still an evening's work to veneer a cabinet.

[timber_mg]

Oh, and a good bit of pressure helps, but usually that trickery is required when the glue has dried. The point is that the glue isn't completely dry and you'll see the steam coming through the veneer slightly. The first pass is slow and with a fair bit of pressure until it stops evaporating. If you hear the glue boiling it is too wet and you risk tearing the veneer. The rest is basically just drying the glue and ensuring it is dry and remains stable over time.

Oh...and like with lacquering....surface preparation is key to good results. Take your time and don't rush too much, when it gos wrong (and this is why one does a few test pieces) it is a remarkably frustrating experience.

[JonMarsh]

what's that? a rubber duck?

Not quite!


Cleret




:B

[Jed]

Have any of you used a brayer- similar to what is used for traditional printmaking, to tranfer wood glue? I'd imagine one would have a lot of control over the amount and thickness of glue over the surfaces.

[augerpro]

Which Titebond do you guys recommend? Also what thickness veneer should I look for to use with a 1/2" roundover?

[JonMarsh]

Have any of you used a brayer- similar to what is used for traditional printmaking, to tranfer wood glue? I'd imagine one would have a lot of control over the amount and thickness of glue over the surfaces.

I use similar hard rubber rollers for rolling the veneer after the iron pass, to make sure it's flat and firm against the cabinet. That "Brayer" thing must be kind of like a small paint roller? With a fine foam surface to hold the ink? Not sure how it would work with Titebond unless you thinned it somewhat.

[JonMarsh]

I've never done roundovers like that- have always used solid wood at the corners. With that small a radius, you'll need to pretreat with veneer softener I imagine, and the length of the grain will need to run in the direction of the joint I expect.

[---k---]

Not quite!

:B

Joh, I was picturing the guys that wash your car windows on the street corners downtown. And you know, if you look as much like your avatar as you say, you would....


jejehhee

[Chris7]

Also what thickness veneer should I look for to use with a 1/2" roundover?

For a 1/2" roundover, you should go with 10 mil veneer. Depending on the wood, you may want to consider veneer softener. It is possible to do a 1/2" roundover with 22 mil veneer but it is not very easy (you really need veneer softener).

[augerpro]

For a 1/2" roundover, you should go with 10 mil veneer. Depending on the wood, you may want to consider veneer softener. It is possible to do a 1/2" roundover with 22 mil veneer but it is not very easy (you really need veneer softener).

Thanks for the info. I seen at Rockler or maybe oakwoodveneer the 10mil back was on 1/64" veneer. Now joewoodworker has an awesome selection of unbacked 1/42" veneer, do you think that would work as well if I used some softener? Is backed veneer easier to work with?

[Chris7]

Thanks for the info. I seen at Rockler or maybe oakwoodveneer the 10mil back was on 1/64" veneer. Now joewoodworker has an awesome selection of unbacked 1/42" veneer, do you think that would work as well if I used some softener? Is backed veneer easier to work with?

Just to be clear, 10 mil paperbacked is the same as 1/64" paperbacked (since 1/64" works out to 15.6 mil, which is 10 mil for the veneer and about 5 mil for the paper). Just two different ways of writing the same thing. Likewise, 20 mil is the same as 1/42". Some stores write it one way, some the other.

For a small-radius roundover like you're trying to do, the thinner stuff is easier to work with. Also, paper-backed in general is easier to work with. The only minor drawbacks are a very small line at the edges from the thin paper (not visible except on close inspection) and a greater likelihood of telegraphing surface flaws.

[capslock]

I use a foam paint roller to apply the PVA glue. We don't have the yellow stuff. The most common stuff is Ponal, but there are a range of other vendors with virtually identical products. There is even a DIN-standard for this:

D1: the generic PVA stuff, needs about 15 minutes of clamping and several hours to cure to full strength

D2: needs 5 min clamping and about 30 minutes to reasonable strength

D3: only slightly faster than D1, but with improved water resistance

D4: this has PU added, resulting in unlimited water resistance


All are white and all have PVA as the major ingredient. D1 - D3 have been reported to work both for press and iron on veneering.
D2: needs 5 min clamping, 30 min clamping

D3:

[JonW]

Really thick "veneer"

This may be a crazy idea, but I'll see what you guys think...

For my next speaker cabinets, I was considering making them double walled thickness, so two layers of 3/4" wood. And I had the idea of having the inside layer the standard baltic birch (or MDF). But make the second, outer layer from regular wood, say red oak. So no need for veneer. Making roundovers, etc. should go smoothly and I won't end up seeing the edges of the veneer at any corners.

I'm also considering cuting facets on the front baffle. So there I could make the front baffle from 3 or 4 layers of solid oak. Then cut the facets out from there. If I want to sand down the sharp edges of the facets (to help diffraction) it will be easy to do. And there would be no easy way to use regular veneer over facets with sanded edges.

It will probably be a little more expensive that veneering, but the good Oakwood paper backed veneer I've used is pretty close to the cost of real wood, at $85 shipped per 4x8 sheet. Using the real wood should be a little less work and the final results might actually look better.

Silly idea?

[JonMarsh]

Not silly, but you might run into problems with different coefficients of expansion with temperature and moisture. Some use removalbe decorative hardwood panels held on with the furntiture cap screws. Me, being the guy that has done things inside out, used solid oak bracing on the inside of the M8a two way "bookshelf" speaker.

would you miter the corners, or have end grain showing, or? A lot depends on the design you want to pursue and what kind of esthetic you're seeking.

~Jon

[Brian Bunge]

$85 for a sheet of oak veneer?!!! That's just crazy. I get figured cherry for that price from Tape Ease. Last time I checked, I spent under $30 for a 4x8 sheet of oak from them.

[JonP]

Which Titebond do you guys recommend? Also what thickness veneer should I look for to use with a 1/2" roundover?

I wanted to hear some opinions on this as well... I had a Rockler employee say "Titebond 1 would probably be best" so thats what I used on my one small project so far. Worked well, but I'm open to suggestions...

[JonW]

Not silly, but you might run into problems with different coefficients of expansion with temperature and moisture. Some use removalbe decorative hardwood panels held on with the furntiture cap screws. Me, being the guy that has done things inside out, used solid oak bracing on the inside of the M8a two way "bookshelf" speaker.

Yes, I recall you doing that, as described in the article about those speakers (a sticky around here somewhere). I think those were red oak braces in a premade cabinet of something else (MDF?).

Thanks for the tip on expansion. Didn't think of that. I wonder how much of a problem it really is. It seemed too easy. Maybe make the whole cabinet out of red oak? It's pretty dense. It may not be as good as BB or MDF though, but if it's doubled thickness (1.5")... Hmmm...

would you miter the corners, or have end grain showing, or? A lot depends on the design you want to pursue and what kind of esthetic you're seeking.

Not sure. Haven't gotten that far yet. I thought I'd do all the computer sims of various cabinet designs (narrow, wide, facets or not, roundovers or not, tapered baffle narrowing by the tweeter or not, etc.). Then decide on how to make it after I know what it's going to look like.

$85 for a sheet of oak veneer?!!! That's just crazy. I get figured cherry for that price from Tape Ease. Last time I checked, I spent under $30 for a 4x8 sheet of oak from them.

That's what it was for a 4x8 sheet of flat cut maple, including shipping. I didn't run into any major problems with my first veneer job, including going around 3/4" rounded over corners. So it was probably worth the money. But at that much... maybe use "real" wood?

[Brian Bunge]

I think I can get 10-mil paperbacked maple for about $40-$50 and it'll wrap around a 3/4" (or even 1/2") radius all day long. I'm not totally sure what the total cost was with shipping, but it definitely was cheaper than $85.

[ColoradoTom]

I would be VERY careful trying to make a cabinet out of solid wood. As Jon mentioned the effects of expansion in wood are not consistant across grain and along grain, and while the enclosure may hold up for a while, eventually you will most likely develop cracks that will make it less than air tight.

Anybody that builds furniture with solid wood learns VERY quickly to account for expansion/contraction - look at kitchen cabinet door construction and you will find that the center panel "floats" in a groove to allow for this expansion, or look at the "cleats" that hold a solid table top to the frame and you will see it is designed to allow movement as well. It will be next to impossible to design for this in a speaker cabinet if you need the cabinet to remain sealed. A solid wood veneer over a MDF/plywood inner box might be able to work if you designed a way for the outer solid wood part to flex... but I sure wouldn't try it!!

Another thing that may be of note is that solid wood has the potential to "ring" or have a particular "tone". I play guitar and trust me, different woods sound different. That's one of the reasons players have preferences in body materials, some like Koa some like Rosewood (like me!), Maple, Mahogany... each sound different. Manufactured wood products like MDF and plywood have much less tendency to have a pronounced character of their own that a solid wood may have..... just a thought.

On the other hand... this could bring a whole new generation of audio reviewer "speakmanship" - the depth and the "oakish" mellowness of the mids in the Dayton MTMW solid wood speaker ..........................

Tom

[bob barkto]

I've tried Original Titebond, TB2 and Titebond Cold Press, Elmers Carpenters Interior Wood Glue, Elmers Carpenters Exterior Wood Glue and ordinary Elmers white glue.

Original TB worked best for me.

Cold Press didn't work well at all. Neither did Elmers Carpenters Exterior.
TB2 seemed a bit tougher to get plastic under the iron and so didn't adhere as well, I think it wanted more heat than I was willing to put on the veneer.

I wanted to hear some opinions on this as well... I had a Rockler employee say "Titebond 1 would probably be best" so thats what I used on my one small project so far. Worked well, but I'm open to suggestions...

[JonW]

I would be VERY careful trying to make a cabinet out of solid wood.

Wisdom from the woodworking master- thanks! I figured there had to be some reason people don’t do this. (I thought the expense might keep people away.) Seemed too easy. I’ll stick to Baltic birch and veneer.

The only major downside is if I want to use facets, but sand down the edges of the facets to further reduce diffraction. It will be too tough to try and veneer over that.

I guess that’s why when you look at commercial speakers with a rounded front baffle on more than two opposite sides, they’re painted rather than veneered. (e.g., Thiels)

[ColoradoTom]

More like a woodworking master in training................ :B

Is it me or is nearly everybody else in this thread a Jon, with all the Jon's posting here maybe I should change my user ID to ColoradoJon :E

Tom

[Steve Manning]

Heatlock .....

I am new to the forum, but I figured I could pass something along on this recent thread on Heatlock vs. Tightbond. I have only done a couple of speaker/veneering projects so I don’t have a lot of experience, the last project on, I did use Heatlock though. The stuff is great, very easy to use, no bubbling, great for someone new to veneering ( as in me ….). Follow the directions and you have great results. I actually got to meet Joe, he lives 5 minutes from my in-laws and I spent over an hour with him at his house where he runs his business, talking about his products. Nice guy and very helpful in answering all of my question before I purchased some Heatlock. The glue is actually a fair bit different from Titebond in that it is specifically formulated for use with veneers, he worked the formula out with a chemical company for that purpose. Contact Joe and he will answer any of your questions, (no I don’t get a kick back), I just found it to be a great product and figured I would pass my experience on. I used it with 10 mil paperbacked Teak from Tape Ease and was very pleased with the results.

Steve

[Jim Holtz]

I think I can get 10-mil paperbacked maple for about $40-$50 and it'll wrap around a 3/4" (or even 1/2") radius all day long. I'm not totally sure what the total cost was with shipping, but it definitely was cheaper than $85.

Hi Brian,

Actually TapeEase and Oakwood are very competitive in price for similar veneers. The plain 10 mill paper back is quite reasonable but I've avoided it for fear of bubbling, bleed through etc. and have selected Oakwoods BFV (bubble free veneer) series that has a resin barrier built into it that works. It costs more but I've never had a problem with it. Edge lines are so thin, you can barely see them. I used another brand the last time to save money and had bubbling problems. I'll not use anything but Oakwood's BFV veneer from now on. :T They have a huge selection of veneers in many sizes and offer book matching if you want to pay for it. Shipping is fast and their service is about as good as it gets.

Brian King recommended them to me a long time ago and I can see why after having problems. It's more than a little frustrating to get to the final stage of finishing and see all of your careful work screwed up to save a few bucks. That's my take anyway.

Jim

[digital desire]

I am getting ready to order 2 sheets of some oak veneer.
From Oakwoods site, I gather that they do not endorse using the hot PVA method with the BFV 22 mil stuff. I have yet to call tham and ask. If you go to their PVA tips section, they suggest using the 10 mil stuff.
EDIT: Just called them. 22 mil is not needed for hot PVA method. He said that was like hitting a bug with a sledge hammer. 10 mil is all that is needed, the 22 mil was developed for contact cement and its associated problems.

[Jim Holtz]

I am getting ready to order 2 sheets of some oak veneer.
From Oakwoods site, I gather that they do not endorse using the hot PVA method with the BFV 22 mil stuff. I have yet to call tham and ask. If you go to their PVA tips section, they suggest using the 10 mil stuff.

Hi Peter,

Thanks for the heads up. Would you post their recommendations after you hear back from them? I was going to use BFV and the iron on method. I may rethink things after reading your findings.

Thanks for the post!

Jim

[JonW]

I'll not use anything but Oakwood's BFV veneer from now on.

So Jim, how do you glue on your Oakwood BFV? I tried contact cement. It went OK, but I probably want to try something different for next time. The solvent vapors of the cement had me concerned. (Too cold to work outside.)

From Oakwoods site, I gather that they do not endorse using the hot PVA method with the BFV 22 mil stuff.
-snip-
EDIT: Just called them. 22 mil is not needed for hot PVA method.

Hmmm... so if the BFV is easiest to work with... but don't use hot PVA with that. And hot PVA is less trouble and the 10 mm paper veneer is more trouble.... Not sure what I'll try next.

[digital desire]

I talked to Oakwood about the 22mil and hot PVA. He said not needed. The 22mil is more for the contact cement.
For me that means 10 mil and either iron on adhesive, titebond or the hotseal stuff.

[Jim Holtz]

So Jim, how do you glue on your Oakwood BFV? I tried contact cement. It went OK, but I probably want to try something different for next time. The solvent vapors of the cement had me concerned. (Too cold to work outside.)




Hmmm... so if the BFV is easiest to work with... but don't use hot PVA with that. And hot PVA is less trouble and the 10 mm paper veneer is more trouble.... Not sure what I'll try next.

Hi Jon,

I'm going to try using the 10 mil paperback with iron and Titebond. That seems to be a proven formula. I have always used contact cement in the past. Solvent based outside in the garage and water based inside during the Winter due to fumes. I think it was the water based contact cement and using something other than BFV that got me in trouble. If I were to use water based contact cement, then yes, I would only use BFV.

All of the feedback from the experienced folks here have convinced me to give 10 mil Oakwood paper back and Titebond with the iron on method a try.

Thanks to Peter for calling Oakwood and getting their recommendations.

Jim

[JonW]

Peter and Jim-

Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll try the same for my next project: 10 mil paperbacked and iron on PVA.

-Jon

[chasw98]

Peter and Jim-

Thanks for the info. Maybe I'll try the same for my next project: 10 mil paperbacked and iron on PVA.

-Jon

Just to give you a frame of reference, all my speakers L,C.R, and 4 MT's were done using that method with iron on and 10 mil.

Chuck

[Brian Bunge]

I've always used contact cement and 10 mil paperbacked veneer, but I think I'll use titebond on the subwoofer I'm finishing soon.