convince me DIY > store

[TweakGames]

Hi all. I REALLY like to build my own subwoofer boxes and such for the reason that I feel proud when its all done and working good.

But I am having a hard time, justifying spending over $200 a speaker (for my 5.1 system) building a DIY speaker. Is it REALLY that much better quality? Could a not audiophile person (friend of mine) come into my home theatre room and be blown away? Or would they maybe not be able to tell a difference between a $200 2 main 2 satellite set?

Thanks.

[warnerwh]

You and your friend will notice a big difference. Sounds like you haven't heard high quality equipment. It sounds much more realistic than the stuff from Best Buy etc.

If you diy you'll have much better quality than you will get for the same money buying commercial projects. There's alot of designs here that can be directly copied. If you spend 200 per speaker you'll have one heck of a home theater system. It will more than likely amaze you. If you spend the same amount at Circuit City nobody will be amazed.

I'd recommend a good sub. For what I've built for under 500 I'm amazed with. I've heard alot of commercial subs but this one for under 500 is way better than anything I can imagine at a store for the same money. The more you spend on diy the more efficiently the money is spent as far as getting better quality per dollar spent.

If you can build the boxes and make the crossovers you'd be crazy, lazy or too busy not to diy.

[TweakGames]

Ok, that is all I need to hear. Thank you.

Seeing how I was semi impressed with my old DTS surround sound setup (logitech z-5500 $300) I am willing to spend what I need to get the job done audio wise.

When I go back to school (7 months @ WSU) and have an apartment I am in charge of the home theatre system / living room. This will be my first major "investment" in a while, and I am somewhat nervous on what to do. Although I have tons of time till I need to buy, I have been researching for about a year now.

I dont mean to go on, but I'm going to have a projector setup, and hopefully a 5.1 surround sound. But some of the completed projects I have been looking at have a couple 8 inch subwoofers built into the mains/satellites. So maybe a subwoofer might not be required? Some of them seem to go down past 40 hz with ease. If not, then I dont see a reason to have subwoofers in the satellites/mains. Then I will be looking into getting 4 "budget" 2 way speakers, and then a seperate powered subwoofer.

Anyways sorry for ranting on. Like I said I'm nervous, although I have experience with car subwoofers, I'm somewhat lost in regular home theatre speakers.

This site is great and I have already learned SO MUCH. I never noticed how important crossovers were.

Thanks all for the site, and all the great information on it!

[Chris7]

First off, I love your idea of a projector setup. I imagine that would be fantastic for someone in college.

In general, you can do a lot better with DIY than buying commercial. A lot of commercial speakers at the $200 price point are not very good; many, for instance, lack adequate baffle step compensation (e.g. PSB Alpha Bs, just to pick on one). However, there are also some good commercial products. The AV123 x-ls bookshelves that Danny designed really are a fantastic deal at $200; it is hard to DIY something like that (the total package, including real maple veneer, quality finishing, etc.) at that price. With DIY, it's the little costs that get you, finishing supplies, veneer, router bits you may not have, etc. Every DIY project I build always ends up costing me more than I thought, though I am obsessive about finishing and little details (but not about boutique crossover parts). DIY also requires a large investment of time.

So make sure you get into DIY not only to save money... there has to be some other underlying reason... maybe you enjoy building things with your hands, maybe you enjoy the filter design aspect of crossovers, maybe you enjoy understanding exactly what you're getting and the engineering tradeoffs involved (this is a big one for me), maybe you enjoy experimenting, maybe you find it relaxing to have a non-academic hobby, etc.

Also, the sweet spot for DIY is probably the $400-500 range. With that kind of investment, you can outdo some good commercial speakers. For motivation, read the recent thread where someone compares his DIY Modula MTs to $2000 Totem speakers. There are still good designs that can be built for much less than $400 though. Check out zaphaudio.com's Bargain Aluminum MTMs as one example.

[dyazdani]

I would go ahead and build a dedicated sub rather than the 8s combined with the mains, IMHO. Also, if your budget is thin, I'd go with 2 main speakers and a sub first, then add the 2 surrounds at a later date. You could also use some cheap speakers or maybe rob a couple from your Logitech setup for the rears.

If you liked your Logitech setup, prepare to be absolutely floored...

[TweakGames]

I would go ahead and build a dedicated sub rather than the 8s combined with the mains, IMHO. Also, if your budget is thin, I'd go with 2 main speakers and a sub first, then add the 2 surrounds at a later date. You could also use some cheap speakers or maybe rob a couple from your Logitech setup for the rears.

If you liked your Logitech setup, prepare to be absolutely floored...

Now you got me all excited. But, yes that does sound like a good plan. I think I will do the "Modula MTM 1 Design" so that I can get the lower price when I buy 4 RS180.

Do you guys see any reason to wait and do these speakers in 7 months? Is there any new technology/speakers or any special price drops that are coming out soon?

I'm not going to be able to sleep tonight I'm so excited. Now I just need to figure out what receiver to get.

[dyazdani]

Do you guys see any reason to wait and do these speakers in 7 months? Is there any new technology/speakers or any special price drops that are coming out soon?

There's always new components coming out, but the design is more of a concern here, IMO. The Modula MT or MTM would be a great choice.

[warnerwh]

Exactly what dyazdani says. The smartest route is go with the best 2 channel system plus a sub you can now and upgrade later. Which do you think sounds better, two really good speakers or five fair ones?

A sub is hard to get around if you want true bass. Alot of what are called subwoofers are merely woofers. Also don't believe what the commercial makers advertise as most of their specs are misleading. In other words they stretch the truth. You can build a fair sub for 300 that will outdo the 500 commercial dollar ones with ease. For 500 you can build a very very good sub. If I can do it you can do it too. I've never considered myself much of a woodworker and it had been difficult to take the plunge.

Being as DVD's are now recorded with frequencies below 20hz a sub is the only real option. To get a sub to reproduce frequencies that low isn't easy and that's why most of the stuff in Circuit City etc doesn't really cut it. As a matter of fact I couldn't listen to the best stuff they have. Once again, don't believe the specs for frequency ratings that commercial sub givers offer. Some are true and some aren't.

The quality you're going to have will be so amazing you will love it :T . It's hard to describe as you really need to experience it. You say you're going to WSU. If that's Washington State you're more than welcome to come to my home in Portland. I've also got friends in Washington, Sequim and Bremerton, that have high end HT systems and I could arrange for you to hear what good speakers sound like. Both of these guys are close friends so it would be no problem. If you're interested just PM me and I'll give you my phone number.

This is the place with some pretty smart amigos, let me tell you. I've spent hours reading through threads and you're going to have something you won't believe til you experience it for yourself. No, I'm not exagerating.

I wish I started where you're at. Back then computers were only for the military and some big business so no internet. After building high quality subs and saving myself some serious money I can hardly wait to do a speaker. Now if I could just have the balls to try veneering. 8O

[joecarrow]

There's sort of a "sweet spot" for DIY audio. This is just my opinion, and it probably varies based on your finances.

For the lowest possible price, nothing sounds so great- but you're going to have a hard time building a $50 speaker that sounds good enough to be worth your time and effort. For $200 to $1000 per speaker, you can build speakers that compete with commercial systems that cost up to several times that. For over $1000 per speaker, you start to get into an area of diminishing returns where the speakers stop being the weakest link.

If cost was no object ($10k+ per speaker), then I'd seriously consider some flagship products by some of the big names in the business, since I'm really not patient enough to get the level of cosmetic perfection that I'd want from something so expensive.

At the price point you're talking about- $200 per speaker- it's just starting to be the difference between hearing the speakers and hearing the music. I've never heard $100 speakers that made me question whether a sound I was hearing was really in the room or if it was coming out of the speaker. The Modula MT, for me, is just about on the threshold where I start to get a good illusion of the sounds in my room, and not in the boxes. It would help a lot if I was able to place them in the room properly instead of jamming them in the corner, but that's the price you pay for domestic harmony.

Have fun with a projector and a good sound system! In college, that's the best. It seems like you can always round up some friends for a movie night- that gets so much harder when everyone gets jobs and kids.

Edit- it looks like you posted while I was typing. If you're worried about money, try the Natalie Portman or the Modula MT design, rather than the Modula MTM. The Modula MTM uses a more intense crossover that costs more for parts.

[TweakGames]

At the price point you're talking about- $200 per speaker- it's just starting to be the difference between hearing the speakers and hearing the music. I've never heard $100 speakers that made me question whether a sound I was hearing was really in the room or if it was coming out of the speaker.

I have never even been CLOSE to hearing the music as though it wasn't being reproduced from a speaker. I think when I visit warnerwh and have the pleasure of listening (do you guys call it listening? The way you guys talk about it, it might be called "experiencing" ) his setup, I will truely understand it.

I guess I will just have to wait and see.

I have one last question before I attempt to sleep. (although I am way to excited to get any good sleep tonight.) Do you think that a Onkyo TX-SR604 receiver or the Modula MT mains would be the weak point in the system? I dont think it would be a good idea to have really good speakers and a bad receiver or vis virsa. What I'm trying to ask now is, what level of receiver would be a good match for that quality of a speaker?

I am not that worried about money if the extra input reflects efficient output.
So basically if there is a noticable difference spending $100 extra more per main then I am fine with that. Also I am already saving money because I thought it was going to cost over $200 per speaker X 4 for the mains and satellites.

Thanks. :T

Edit- it looks like you posted while I was typing. If you're worried about money, try the Natalie Portman or the Modula MT design, rather than the Modula MTM. The Modula MTM uses a more intense crossover that costs more for parts.

It's weird how the actual drivers cost under $40 each but the crossover can easily be over 1/2 the cost of the speaker. I'm starting to see how important the crossovers really are. I'm only used to a subsonic filter on my car audio subwoofer amps. Going to be interesting making my own.

[warnerwh]

Hey, I'm looking very forward to getting to let you see and hear what a good system can do. I'm probably more excited than you as it's fun for me also.

[Hdale85]

I would say that receiver would be the weak link and definitely not the Modula's. To get the best sound you would probably want an outboard amp or a high end receiver. The nice thing about the amp is you can use your onkyo receiver as a pre/pro. One very good amp is the Bheringer A500 from partexpress supposed to be very good quality for the 200ish bucks it costs just an idea. Of course you could upgrade your amp later and use the onkyo receiver for now. If it will do 4ohms that is.

As for a good receiver I have a Yamaha RX-V2400 and it is a very nice receiver. Of course it retailed for 1000 dollars but I bought it used off Audiogon/Videogon if you want something at a good price might want to check there for an amp or a receiver. Like I said if you got a power amp you could use your receiver for a pre/pro.

[---k---]

There are several other very good budget designs out there. There is CJD's MTM design and Zaph also has a couple. IIRC, Chris's MTM's can be built for around $250. We compared them to my Ascend 340SEs, Paradigm Studio 40s and DynAudio 42s. His were better, so there is great value in DIY. But you got to be into it, and willing to spend money for routers, clamps, and lots of time. It takes weeks, if not months, to build speakers and subs. Jon's Modula/NatP projects are nice because they use the PE cabinets and save some time.

I think anyone coming from a HTIB, not really into music, or what ever would be impressed by the sound quality of the AV123 XL-S system, or the SVS SB-01 5.1 system, or an Ascend HTM200 package. All of which can be had for around $1000 - $1200. But, anyone who is seriously into music or has experienced a big, real system won't be satisfied for long and will want to upgrade it.

[joecarrow]

Do you think that a Onkyo TX-SR604 receiver or the Modula MT mains would be the weak point in the system? I dont think it would be a good idea to have really good speakers and a bad receiver or vis virsa. What I'm trying to ask now is, what level of receiver would be a good match for that quality of a speaker?

You will gain something by upgrading to outboard amps or a higher end receiver, but the specifications on that one look respectable enough that I don't think you'll have any trouble. It will certainly be fine for the Modula MTs (rated at 6 ohms), and will most likely be fine for the MTM designs, which are rated at 4 ohms. Here's the link I found that tells me that: http://www.onkyousa.com/model.cfm?m=...class=Receiver

They actually give a power rating for a 3 ohm load, which leads me to believe that they can handle a 4 ohm load without blowing up. You could do better, but you could do a lot worse.

What would be ideal is if after you build your main speakers you borrow a serious amp from somebody to see how much you can hear the difference. You probably will, but at that time you can decide if the extra performance is worth the money.

Oh, and one caution about your receiver- be careful about throwing parties. I can't tell you how many times I've seen college kids destroy amplifiers and receivers by turning it up so loud that it sounds horrible, not knowing that the amp is clipping, and leaving it that loud all night for a party. If it starts to sound worse, turn it down. If the receiver starts to get warm, make sure it has plenty of air.

It's weird how the actual drivers cost under $40 each but the crossover can easily be over 1/2 the cost of the speaker. I'm starting to see how important the crossovers really are. I'm only used to a subsonic filter on my car audio subwoofer amps. Going to be interesting making my own.

They're extremely important- you've got that right! The individual drivers might sound great across a certain range of frequencies, but then there is a point where the sound goes bad. For paper and poly cone woofers, it's not so sudden or harsh- but the ultimate sound quality just isn't the best possible. With metal cones, the sound quality for their range might be superb- but then there's a point above which where all hell breaks loose and distortion increases rapidly.

The crossovers in the Mission Accomplished area all do a good job of getting the most out of the individual drivers. They use them where they're good, and keep them from playing where they're bad. That's why you can't just take any random handful of drivers and make a speaker out of them.

A last word- the speaker's location in the room has a large effect on the sound. High quality speaker designs account for something called "baffle step". They work based on the assumption that your speakers won't be too close to the wall- say 2 or 3 feet at least- if the speakers are shoved back against the wall then they just won't sound as good. Also, the position of your subwoofer can have a noticeable effect on performance. Be prepared to move it around a little bit looking for the best bass.

If you're really into music and the way things really sound, you're in for a treat

[cjd]

Just a couple comments to add here.

Joe C, I think the DIY stuff can hit the sweet spot for a lot less than you're suggesting. You really start to get into good stuff at about $250-300 a PAIR (Modula MT and my MTM are both in this range).

Ryan's comment about cost on my MTM is for the pair (It really is ~$300/pr now with copper up and such).

I would suggest the Natalie P over the Modula MTM. Modula MT is closer to the Nat P. A bit easier on the budget and less component picky than the Modula MTM is.

I'm working on yet another design that may push budget even lower, and be a good bit smaller.

C

[joecarrow]

C, I'll agree with that- I guess I forget how much you could potentially save on a pair of speakers by building your own cabinets.

If you already own the tools and skip on the fancy binding posts and damping foam, cost does decrease even more. I spent a little over $400 on my Modula MTs, with parts express boxes, sonic barrier foam, and gold binding posts. I don't know if I'd change anything if I had it to do over- but the foam really doesn't do that much. From my experience, I learned that I'm really not set up for woodworking right now. Apartment life makes that tough.

So Chris, are you ready to spill the beans? What's in the works?

[cjd]

So Chris, are you ready to spill the beans? What's in the works?

There's another thread going about it. :P

You can do accurate speaker boxes with a router and a circular saw + sawboard. I've done such projects in the dorm, out on the side porch.

Gold plated posts don't cost, it's copper ones that do. PE has a great line of brass posts gold plated, not too costly at all, that are "clones" of much more costly posts (WBT or Supra for example).

The 3-layer sonic barrier IS good and does make a difference. It's just hard to A/B it. You can be picky about where you use it, however. And plain fiberglass works superbly.

C

[Saurav]

Hey, if you guys are getting together at warnerwh's place, let me know I need to get over there some time too

[jonathanb3478]

I run a trio of Dynaudio Audience 42 bookshelfs (they are 4 ohms) across the front three channels on my Onkyo SR602, and four 6-ohm Monitor Audio surrounds. I have been doing this for almost a year and a half now, as I got it for $250 as a refurb in fall of '05.

My point is, the Onkyo stuff can handle a 4-ohm load very well.

The 604 is a good unit (not perfect, but good for the price) according to what I have seen on other audio/video forums. Plus, I know the amp sections in the Onkyo models are up to snuff. A very good choice.

Especially if you look around for a good price from a well respected merchant on www.pricegrabber.com, or even www.bizrate.com. They have good prices - how does $363-shipped sound?



I will say that if you want to build a "home theater", not a "music system that is good with movies", you need to focus really heavily on the subwoofer. A large portion of the impact of HT is in the stuff you don't hear, but feel. That is done by a good sub. It is hard to describe to someone who has not experienced it, but it is hard to take away from someone who has, ya know?

One of the good 15" drivers with 500w, or more, in a ~10cuft ported tube/box is a good starting point. I understand it would be serious overkill at the moment, but anything worth doing is worth doing right the first time.

A sub like that and a pair of NatP's would be awsome, I have no doubt. I do not think you would be dissapointed with the Modula MTs either, however.

Regardless, good luck. Oh, and welcome to your new obsession! :T

[TweakGames]

Thanks all again very much for your comment and suggestions. I will take any advice thrown my way off this forum. From what I have seen, and soon hear, I really think it is going to turn out nice. Now I am almost done reading the Modula MTM-1 post, (haha on page 9 but getting headaches reading so much) And I have a couple questions, that are semi related to then MTMs and home audio in general.

1. I understand the reason for having a tweeter and a mid driver is because each is good at reproducing a certian range of frequency. I also understand that having two seperate ranged drivers increases sound output cause one driver would take the high and one would take the low instead of one trying to play two frequencies at the same time. I also understand how the crossovers works, and from what I can tell on the MTMs crossover design, both the mid drivers are getting the same signal. Wouldn't it be even better for example if the tweeter took its normal highs, the left mid driver took the higher mids, and the right took the lower mids? Wouldn't that help stop distortion incase two different frequencies were going to the mids? If your going to have 3 speakers, why not have each one doing it's own thing? I am in no way saying the design is bad, and I'm sure there is a reason for it. It would just be nice to have it explained.

2. What is an Arvos?

hehe Thanks.

[joecarrow]

1-It seems that you're asking- if you have three drivers, why not make it a three-way design?

Well, it's a fine balance between a few things. First of all, the thing that stresses ALL drivers is when they play a note that's too low. As the cone moves back and forth, it starts to leave the magnetic field that allows the electric current to make a force. The driver also starts to get pulled back to its resting position with an increasing force when it goes past what the spider and surround were designed to withstand. The point where it all adds up and it starts really killing the sound is the "excursion limit", or "Xmax".

The biggest reason you'd want to do an MTM configuration is to allow it to play bass notes louder. The upper frequency limit for bass cones is usually where cone breakup starts. At a certain frequency, the voicecoil starts trying to vibrate the cone faster than it can keep up, and the cone starts to bend. The cone flaps and shakes like the head of a drum, or as most people would say- rings like a bell. There are other reasons why you cannot have a higher crossover, and they mostly have to do with the wavelength of the sounds produced.

You're on your way, but there is a LOT of information to digest. Look at the Mission Accomplished area, especially the non-project threads and the list of reference websites. It took most of us months of reading or reading and experimenting to really understand what all the problems involved in speaker design are.

2- The Arvo is an advanced dipole design by some of the resident gurus. For more about dipoles, check out linkwitzlab.com. Try not to worry about this too much right now...

[ChaoticKinesis]

1. The design that you describe would either be a 2.5-way or 3-way, whereas any MT and most MTM's would be a 2-way. The number refers to how the signal is being filtered from the source to the drivers. You shouldn't have any trouble finding out the difference between a 2.5- and 3-way if you do a search for them. Some reasons why a 2-way MTM could be preferred over the other types in this alignment is you have a symmetrical vertical response, narrower vertical dispersion (may be considered a plus or a minus), smaller parts count in the crossover, easier to design. Additionally, it is debatable whether there really is any benefit to either the 2.5-way or the small 3-way over the MTM.

2. The Arvo is Jon Marsh's open baffle speaker project. You can find plenty of info about what that is on this site, as well as on Sigfried Linkwitz's site: www.linkwitzlab.com.

~Dave

[Inu_Yasha]

To comment on the Onkyo reciever, I would actually go with another brand if you plan on using the preamp section. I have the TX-SR703 and it has really really weak output on the preamp. If you do a topic search you can see where I was having problems with my sub playing too low (SS RLP-15). Ever since I got my cleanbox (line amp) I have been able to play fine, but it's something to consider when buying a new amp.

I recently got into diy and I love it. Trust these people when they say that you'll be blown away by the sound quality! I just finished my DIY sub 2 days ago and will be posting some pics soon. I'm going to be doing the Nat P's which are very close to the Modula MTM's. I would suggest looking at that as a possible project.

[DougyD19]

^^That's weird. I have the Onkyo TX-SR503 which was the same year as yours but not as advanced and my sub signal is fine. LOL, I even have the gain set at -2 for the sub channel on the Onkyo and the gain on my sub amp at less that middle.

TweakGames - The Onkyo has a nice setup for HT and listening to music with the HT setup. I has a subwoofer section so you can adjust the crossover points to rolloff the low frequency to the sub and not let your surround play that low bass.

I just finished a low cost DIY sub system. It uses a Dayton 15 inch DVC sub with a 240 amp, I got both from Parts Express for I think around $250. You don't need to buy a crossover because the Onkyo does it for you. You'll need a pretty big area for the sub, but you will be able to get the really low frequencies that are needed in HT for explosions that shake the house. Simple fact is that small speakers can't make low frequency bass...because you gotta move air....and that takes a big speaker (unless you are in a small room). I'm amazed by the low frequency response my setup has.

[Inu_Yasha]

^^That's weird. I have the Onkyo TX-SR503 which was the same year as yours but not as advanced and my sub signal is fine. LOL, I even have the gain set at -2 for the sub channel on the Onkyo and the gain on my sub amp at less that middle.

TweakGames - The Onkyo has a nice setup for HT and listening to music with the HT setup. I has a subwoofer section so you can adjust the crossover points to rolloff the low frequency to the sub and not let your surround play that low bass.

I just finished a low cost DIY sub system. It uses a Dayton 15 inch DVC sub with a 240 amp, I got both from Parts Express for I think around $250. You don't need to buy a crossover because the Onkyo does it for you. You'll need a pretty big area for the sub, but you will be able to get the really low frequencies that are needed in HT for explosions that shake the house. Simple fact is that small speakers can't make low frequency bass...because you gotta move air....and that takes a big speaker (unless you are in a small room). I'm amazed by the low frequency response my setup has.

Really now, the reciever output is ok? Honestly it could be the type of amp used. Mine is a dbu (I think) whereas the reciever is a dbv which makes the signal lose something within the lines of -12db. I really do think it has something to do with me using a Behringer EP2500.

As far as a sub goes, I would highly recommend the Dayton 15" HF. It was on sale a while back at $130 and I got one to try it out and man was I impressed. I currently have a SS RL-p15 and love it; if you can go with something more expensive on the first shot, do it! Like SteveCallas said, do it right the first time or do it twice.

[DougyD19]

Really now, the reciever output is ok? Honestly it could be the type of amp used. Mine is a dbu (I think) whereas the reciever is a dbv which makes the signal lose something within the lines of -12db. I really do think it has something to do with me using a Behringer EP2500.

I just have the cheap 240 watt plate amp from PE. The only thing I don't like about the amp, is that it is a plate style. I didn't mount it onto my box, so now I have to find a place to put it.

The only other little problem I notice between the Onkyo and PE amp is that when switching between Tuner, DVD, or Video a one time signal is sent across to the sub that causes a little noise for a split second (it's really not an issue for me though unless I focus on it.

[---k---]

The PE plate amp expects to see a very differnt line voltage than the Behringer Pro amp or any other pro amp. Looks like there is a bit of confusion about the issues here.

But, bottom line is the better the receiver the better it will drive the speaker porjects here, which are typically 6-4ohm. Yeah, my pioneer 1015 can drive 4ohm speakers without shutting down and not sound like dog, but a dedicated amp does provide recongizible improvements.