Couple of finishing Q's for woodworking whizzes

[JoshK]

Making some more incremental progress on my Arvo woofer baffles (U baffles of the Arvo classic). Got a break from home renovations so I thought I'd make use and do some more work on the Arvo's.

My questions are:

I was thinking of making the sides and plinth black gloss finish while the front and trim will be Mahogany. I am assuming it is prudent to paint the sides and plinth, and stain the veneer/wood trim before gluing all the pieces together. Is this most likely the best way to go about it? How about for Lacquer'ing?

I am just not sure I can contain the two zones well if they are already glued together. But, I am worried that I will get glue on the outside after painted/stained. Anyone have some pointers for a newbie?

I am going to have a big challenge of finding a dust-free area to spray and finish. My basement is my woodshop and despite a dust collector and dust filter is chock full o dust. Upstairs we are doing gut renovations on the second floor which means dust is pervasive through the house to some extent (even with plastic/duct tape seal). What do some of you guys do when you don't have a spray room?

When we did homemade wayne-scoting in the bathroom, we had to finish and refinish and refinish lots of the pieces because we couldn't keep the dust from the finishing area in our dining room.

Cheers,
Josh

(I am typing while taking a break from breathing MDF dust).

[JonMarsh]

I've used 1/4"-20 cap nut connector bolts and threaded inserts so that the hardwood parts can be finished separately and bolted on and/or removed as needed.

Rockler has the right hardware, but you can usually find it at many Lowes, because they bought Eagle Hardware, which had pretty good furniture assembly stuff.

For the MDF stuff, be sure to use several coats of sealer/primer prior to painting. I'm more a fan of wipe on poly and satin finishes than lacquer, but that's probably just because I know how to do that fairly well, and I don't know squat about using a lacquer spray gun.

Check out this page for examples.

Check out the latest post on the Arvo Heavy Metal testing page, too, I did some stuff for JimS on biamping woofer to tweeter, with a conventional active crossover, and modified midrange crossover, plus a passive LF equalizer.

[PMazz]

Not sure how it'll all go together but in general paint/stain and put a seal coat on first. Assemble and then clear coat. As long as you won't need to flat sand joints you'll be OK.

Pete

[WinstonSmith]

My suggestion is to get some 3M blue masking tape then mask the edges to be glued so they don't get sprayed. I wouldn't worry much about getting glue on the finish if you are using Titebond II or III. Just clean it off with water before it dries. I'm uncomfortable about spraying indoors because many finishes are toxic. Maybe using something like Waterlox instead of lacquer until it's warm enough to spray outdoors?

[Chris7]

I was thinking of making the sides and plinth black gloss finish while the front and trim will be Mahogany. I am assuming it is prudent to paint the sides and plinth, and stain the veneer/wood trim before gluing all the pieces together. Is this most likely the best way to go about it?

You can do it either way, but usually masking the areas off for individual finishing with painter's tape after glue up is easier (since it allows sanding after glue up, etc.), but the choice is yours. Mahogany is a porous wood and you should tape it prior to glue up whatever you do so that any dripping glue ends up on the tape, not on the wood, otherwise it is a nightmare to remove.

How about for Lacquer'ing?
...
I am going to have a big challenge of finding a dust-free area to spray and finish. My basement is my woodshop and despite a dust collector and dust filter is chock full o dust. Upstairs we are doing gut renovations on the second floor which means dust is pervasive through the house to some extent (even with plastic/duct tape seal). What do some of you guys do when you don't have a spray room?

If you're working indoors and dust is an issue, you should go with shellac, not lacquer. Lacquer fumes are terrible while shellac is benign, even enjoyable. Also, shellac dries *very* fast, making it the best choice for dusty areas. It's possible to get a mirror-smooth finish in even very dusty areas with shellac, properly applied.

Shellac has only two caveats. First, you have to mix it from shellac flakes, not use the premixed Zinsser stuff from the hardware store. This is because as soon as it's mixed, it starts to degrade, and after a couple months sitting in a can it stops drying quickly. Just buy flakes (you can get shellac online if you can't find it locally) and mix it with your favorite alcohol and you'll be good to go. Second, shellac works best when applied using a cotton pad, rather than brushed on. Light spray works too if you have a spray rig, but if you're working indoors, the pad method is best. This link has a good howto for applying shellac properly:

http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/padding_shellac.htm

Because the pad method applies only a thin coat at a time, it dries exceptionally fast and dust is not an issue.

[Chris7]

I was thinking of making the sides and plinth black gloss finish while the front and trim will be Mahogany. I am assuming it is prudent to paint the sides and plinth, and stain the veneer/wood trim

One more thing... I'd encourage you to consider not staining the mahogany. Mahogany is a beautiful wood, and although it doesn't look special straight from the wood store, over time and with sunlight it develops a deep, beautiful color. Stain pigments will obscure the grain and hide much of the wood's richness. I would encourage you to consider a traditional finish, just a coat of boiled linseed oil then shellac, and let it develop. If you want a more reddish color, use a natural shellac, which has a yellowish tinge, which combined with the wood over time becomes reddish. This is not the faux reddish you'd get with a stain, but rather a natural red. If you want a deeper red or even a deep purplish bombay-style mahogany, consider mixing an aniline dye in with the shellac, rather than using a stain. Professional furniture finishers tend to use aniline dyes rather than stains because they obscure the grain much less.

[Rolex]

I would say stains and dyes both have their place. In open grained woods..oak, ash... I find that stains work the best. I prefer dyes for harder woods and woods that tend to be blochy when staining. Things like birch, and curly maple.

Spraying lacquer, for me, is the ultimate finish. It is expensive to have the right setup and fumes are terrible. So, you have to have the right spraying conditions. Which I have access to. I haven't been able to touch the sprayed lacquer finish with any brush on, wipe on, or other type of finish. Lacquer dries very fast. Sealers are known to dry in 20 minutes and top coats dry in less than an hour. One day of spraying will allow me 4-5 coats, and a completed project.

As far as staining mahogany, I don' like to stain exotic woods. Most of them have grain, and color worthy of showing off. Why hide it with a different color? The best solution for me is to use wood that is already the correct color for my project.

[Jim Holtz]

Spraying lacquer, for me, is the ultimate finish. It is expensive to have the right setup and fumes are terrible. So, you have to have the right spraying conditions. Which I have access to. I haven't been able to touch the sprayed lacquer finish with any brush on, wipe on, or other type of finish. Lacquer dries very fast. Sealers are known to dry in 20 minutes and top coats dry in less than an hour. One day of spraying will allow me 4-5 coats, and a completed project.

You might consider trying Target finishes water based lacquer. It has low VOC's and burns in just like solvent based with the same durability characteristics I've read. It's on my list of finishes to try. I'm currently using Crystalac with is a resin based product, low VOC and uses water clean up. It's super hard and can be buffed just like lacquer. Extremely durable too. It's recommended for guitar or counter top finishing.

I'm also a proponent of spray on finishes. I just upgraded my finishing system and can't wait to use it.

Great stuff IMHO.

Jim

[Rolex]

You might consider trying Target finishes water based lacquer. It has low VOC's and burns in just like solvent based with the same durability characteristics I've read. It's on my list of finishes to try. I'm currently using Crystalac with is a resin based product, low VOC and uses water clean up. It's super hard and can be buffed just like lacquer. Extremely durable too. It's recommended for guitar or counter top finishing.

I'm also a proponent of spray on finishes. I just upgraded my finishing system and can't wait to use it.

Great stuff IMHO.

Jim

Interesting. Never heard of them. Something I'll have to look into. I'm currently using pre-catalyzed lacquer from glidden. I've also used ML campbell, but found that the glidden is a harder, mor durable product.

[JoshK]

Thanks guys for all the pointers! This is why I asked, I wouldn't have thought of some of these choices.

FWIW, I have a large air compressor and one gun which I haven't tried yet, which is for finishing, not paint. So I can try that if I can contain the dust, or get a fast enough drying substance.

As far as stain, I know, I know it isn't PC to stain pretty wood. It is just a matter of matching the furniture we have in our room which is darkly stained (or dyed?) mahogany. This is why I chose mahogany.

The current Modula MTM's I have in the room are not nearly as dark as the furniture. I had John Bateman make my cabinets and I never sent him the sample he requested so he guessed. But overall it doesn't look too bad in the room. I guess I could make the speakers contrast but my wife would probably prefer they match everything else.

I personally think darkly stained mahogany is one of the most eloquent finishes, but lost popularity recently.

Maybe its dye that is used on our bed that is beautiful. Its a crotch mahogany that is really dark (much much more than natural) but the grain still shows and it is stunning.

[Jim Holtz]

Interesting. Never heard of them. Something I'll have to look into. I'm currently using pre-catalyzed lacquer from glidden. I've also used ML campbell, but found that the glidden is a harder, mor durable product.

Rolex,

Here's a link to Target Coatings. http://www.targetcoatings.com/manual.html Download the user manual for an excellent description and tips of how to use their products.

Here's a link to McFeely's Crystalac listing on their website. http://www.mcfeelys.com/subcat.asp?sid=37 Crystalac is a superior product that lives up to it's claims.

Good luck!

Jim

[Chris7]

I personally think darkly stained mahogany is one of the most eloquent finishes, but lost popularity recently.

Maybe its dye that is used on our bed that is beautiful. Its a crotch mahogany that is really dark (much much more than natural) but the grain still shows and it is stunning.

I agree, I like the look of a dark Bombay dyed mahogany. It's interesting that it has fallen out of favor recently. I've noticed that too. There has been a move towards maple and cherry in their natural tones.

Anyway, do take a look at TransTint aniline dyes. They're the best and tend to be easier to use then powdered anilines. I notice that Target Coatings, who make some of the products some of the other posters are recommending, are now a vendor for TransTint, which is nice:

http://www.targetcoatings.com/dyes-trans-tint.html

TransTint also works well with shellac.

Whichever finishing method you choose, the most important thing is to do some practice first. I can't emphasize how important this is for a great finish.

[JonP]

A thought on the dust situation.... I bought myself a selection of PVC pipe and fittings, for the idea of a break-downable spray booth. Basically, make a big cube, and line/drape/attach with plastic sheeting. When done, toss or fold up the sheeting, take apart the cube. I got some of the very large painting dropcloth type of thin plastic sheeting to use as the walls. It's pretty cheap. Think I got $20 in the whole thing...

Then I got so busy, I have yet to actually try it out. :roll:

Downsides likely would be gassing yourself with a small volume booth and a lot of spray... and it might be more worth containing the overspray rather than keeping dust off the project. Maybe spraying with one wall open, then during the drying phase you could close it up and it would serve the dust protection purpose....

Anyone try something like this?

[JoshK]

This link has a good howto for applying shellac properly:

http://antiquerestorers.com/Articles/jeff/padding_shellac.htm

Because the pad method applies only a thin coat at a time, it dries exceptionally fast and dust is not an issue.

Just wanted to say thanks, even if really belated, for such a great link. I dug it up when I was looking for a resource on shellac'g. While I am not yet ready to exclaim success, I have done a number of coats so far on an amp project using this outline. The results look really nice so far, and I imagine it is going to turn out great (knock on wood). It is pretty easy to work with.

The application is much easier than polyurethane that we used on wayne-scoting.

P.S. what do you use to clean the shellac off your hands when done?

[EdL]

[/QUOTE] what do you use to clean the shellac off your hands when done?[/QUOTE]

After it is on you? Peel, scrape if off, taking cells with it...ouch!

Before it is on you? get some of those disposable latex gloves; or lather on some moisturizing lotion...and get the lotion into the nether regions around your nails to prevent the finish (and/or stain) from getting there.

[JoshK]

Thanks Ed. Hadn't thought of using lotion to prevent the shellac from sticking. Gloves I use when spray painting, but often when applying sticky stuff like shellac they stick and tear apart, so I tend not to use them.

I just noticed when I got it on my hands it wasn't so easy to get off. Goo gone doesn't help, nor does soap. Even Ajax didnt' help much.

[Dennis H]

Did you try alcohol to get it off your hands?