We are all just building Monkey Coffins...

[Davey]

You lost me Craig. You're thinking I'm going to divorce my Orion's and move across to the dark side with a pair of line-arrays? Nah, I don't think so.

The power-tapering aspect of line-arrays is interesting to me though. I understand the reasoning behind it, but it seems kind of like a bastardization of the concept though.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Jim Holtz]

You lost me Craig. You're thinking I'm going to divorce my Orion's and move across to the dark side with a pair of line-arrays? Nah, I don't think so.

The power-tapering aspect of line-arrays is interesting to me though. I understand the reasoning behind it, but it seems kind of like a bastardization of the concept though.

Cheers,

Davey.

Davey,

Jim Griffin could discuss the merits of the concept much better than I. I can tell you that in practice it works really well. Images are full sized but not over blown which is a common complaint with line arrays. The taper is slight and not really noticeable. Jim did a lot of tweaking to get it where he wanted it.

Jim

[Davey]

Jim,

Yeah, I'm sure they sound okay, but since we kinda got on the subject of near-field/far-field distances/frequencies you can see where I'm coming from with the question.

You're starting with a line that's only a little over 4 feet high (already only half your listening room height) and then the power applied to the drivers is tapered such that the middle drivers are probably receiving twice the power as the end drivers. The room reverberation factors into the equation I'm sure and I guess it still qualifies as a "line-array," but it's well on its way to being a point source. My guess is that you're in the far-field at your listening position for most of the frequency range. I'm sure the speaker sounds good, but I think it probably has more to do with the much reduced distortion possible with multiple drivers and excellent crossover design vice the line-source/array propagation aspect.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for it.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

Yeah, I'm sure they sound okay, but since we kinda got on the subject of near-field/far-field distances/frequencies you can see where I'm coming from with the question.

You're starting with a line that's only a little over 4 feet high (already only half your listening room height) and then the power applied to the drivers is tapered such that the middle drivers are probably receiving twice the power as the end drivers. The room reverberation factors into the equation I'm sure and I guess it still qualifies as a "line-array," but it's well on its way to being a point source. My guess is that you're in the far-field at your listening position for most of the frequency range. I'm sure the speaker sounds good, but I think it probably has more to do with the much reduced distortion possible with multiple drivers and excellent crossover design vice the line-source/array propagation aspect.

My two cents. Worth what you paid for it.

Cheers,

Davey.

Hi Davey,

Actually, if I remember correctly, it's a 1 1/2 - 2 db taper at each end. The rest I'll let you discuss with Jim Griffin. He has the research and dozens of speakers in the field that back up what he says. I'm not qualified to discuss the technical aspects of why you don't think it works.

Jim

[Dennis H]

Jim,

I don't think Davey's saying it doesn't work. I'm sure your speakers sound great. It's just that the nearfield/farfield theory doesn't match some of the technical claims being made by the LA fans. I agree with Davey, for all the reasons he stated, that your speakers are mostly operating in the farfield. Nothing wrong with that if your listening position is close to what the speakers are tuned for. But the 'short' lines do need to be tuned for a specific distance unless the lines are much longer, i.e. near floor to ceiling.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

I don't think Davey's saying it doesn't work. I'm sure your speakers sound great. It's just that the nearfield/farfield theory doesn't match some of the technical claims being made by the LA fans. I agree with Davey, for all the reasons he stated, that your speakers are mostly operating in the farfield. Nothing wrong with that if your listening position is close to what the speakers are tuned for. But the 'short' lines do need to be tuned for a specific distance unless the lines are much longer, i.e. near floor to ceiling.

Hi Dennis,

I didn't take Davey's comments to be anything other than he doesn't think I'm listening in the nearfield. I hope my response didn't come across as "pissy" because I didn't mean it that way. I'm simply not qualified to discuss why I'm in the nearfield. Jim and Rick are qualified to discuss it. Simple as that.

As far as whether my speakers sound good. Yes they do but so do lots of others. I've listened to many point source speakers that I really admire. I also think di-poles of the Orion and NaO caliber sound exceptionally nice too. If this was fine wine we were discussing, we'd be debating why one variety was better than another. Now, do I like line arrays better. Yes I do. :T

I only have one final comment about the nearfield thing. If I wasn't old and hadn't listened to dozens of speakers of many designs and owned a number of so called high end speakers before going into DIY, I might be worried that I didn't know the difference.

But, how many point source or di-pole speakers envelope you in the sound. What I hear is exactly the same effect that I heard when I sat next to Jim Griffin listening to his line arrays in Dayton about 4 years ago while we discussed the merits of line arrays. Just to clear up another misconception about a tuned distance. You can sit anywhere from about 8' back to my normal seating at 15' and experience the same thing. I've asked any number of people that have come to listen to do the same thing and they have heard exactly what I just described.

I wouldn't begin to try to tell you why, I just know it does.

Again, I didn't take any of the comments wrong and i hope my straight to the point answers didn't come across in the wrong way. Folks, this is just a hobby. It's supposed to be fun. For me it is and I hope it is for everyone else here.

Best regards,

Jim

[AJINFLA]

But, how many point source or di-pole speakers envelope you in the sound.

How many have you heard? Over the past 20+ yrs I have heard dozens of line arrays (VMPS, McIntosh, Nearfield, Genesis, etc) with dynamic drivers, ribbons, etc, not to mention large planars like Maggies,etc. at Hi-Fi shops, high end shows, audiophile homes, etc, etc.
I'm pretty familiar with what line arrays sound like, good and bad (especially the Mc and VMPS uker: )
Over the past say 20yrs, other than a malfunctioning NaO (looks like a nice design on paper), how many dynamic driver point source dipoles have you actually experienced?

cheers,

AJ

[ThomasW]

Gentleman, do I need do bring out my frying pan?.....:frypan:

[AJINFLA]

No, no, I was just curious. Audio Artistry was around for a couple years.
Gradient? It's possible...

cheers,

AJ

[Rick Craig]

How many have you heard? Over the past 20+ yrs I have heard dozens of line arrays (VMPS, McIntosh, Nearfield, Genesis, etc) with dynamic drivers, ribbons, etc, not to mention large planars like Maggies,etc. at Hi-Fi shops, high end shows, audiophile homes, etc, etc.
I'm pretty familiar with what line arrays sound like, good and bad (especially the Mc and VMPS uker: )
Over the past say 20yrs, other than a malfunctioning NaO (looks like a nice design on paper), how many dynamic driver point source dipoles have you actually experienced?

cheers,

AJ

I didn't know that VMPS has built an array. They have used the BG planar (RD-50?) but not with an array of woofers. Every design has its tradeoffs - maybe a dipole array is something to consider?

[AJINFLA]

I didn't know that VMPS has built an array. They have used the BG planar (RD-50?) but not with an array of woofers. Every design has its tradeoffs - maybe a dipole array is something to consider?

You might be correct on the VMPS (I've heard several). Been a while, I seem to remember a long ribbon section. I believe Jon is working on the very such thing (dipole array).
A true floor to ceiling array might be interesting. IIRC SL is doing some models using a small array in a scaled down room. The problem as I see it is that you need to sit a good distance from the line, which means greater signature from the room.

cheers,

AJ