Large RS 3way concerns...

[Jonniebravo]

My enclosures are pretty much completed,but I realized a problem that needs attention before I build and install my crossovers. Iv'e learned that my Sony STR-ES 2000 receiver won't be happy driving a 3ohm load. The receiver has additional line outputs for the front left and right channels which could be used for bi-amping, if that's and option. Any thoughts and direction would be greatly appreciated...Jon

[cjd]

Heh...

You can't drive these with a sad little Sony, no way! :P heh. Actually, you probably can for a little while, it will just be SPL limited. I kicked one of my chip-amps (I use it on 4.5ohm speakers a lot without trouble even though it's an 8ohm only amp) into protection, but it's all about level. So keep it quiet and you should be ok. Quiet being probably rather acceptable listening levels. Only do so if you're confident the amp has good protection circuits built in.

Seriously, yes. Line outs to a solid amp will be perfect. Nice 2 channel unit with a few hundred clean watts on tap should do perfectly. But you really should be going separates at this level anyhow - for SQ, but also for flexibility.

C

[Jonniebravo]

Thanks Chris. Just so I understand, are we talking a seperate amp basically for the midbass using the pre-amp or line outs ? Then the speaker outs from the receiver for the tweeter and midrange? Or are we talking stereo amplification strictly from the pre-amp or line outs with higher output able to operate at lower impedance (3-2ohm) for the tower ? A complete system of seperates wouldn't be a option for me right now, but I'll think about It. I'll be using the 3ways for HT as well as 2 channel stereo listening Jon...

[ThomasW]

You might want to consider using something like the Behringer A500 to power the towers. They supposedly sound pretty good and they aren't very expensive.

Use the main L>R pre out into the A500

[kgveteran]

You might want to consider using something like the Behringer A500 to power the towers. They supposedly sound pretty good and they aren't very expensive.

Use the main L>R pre out into the A500

Remember to use your PE link at the top.They're going for 179.00 each.I'll be purchasing two for my four surround speakers.

[Jonniebravo]

I checked out the Behringer A500 on the PE web site. I think It will work just fine, but If I'm going to spend $179.00, what about the Behringer EP1500 for $279.00 ? Thanks guys. Jon...

[cjd]

Do not use the speaker-level outputs from the Sony at all. Just put an amp off the line-outs and put the 3-ways on that amp.

The tweeter circuit is the low spot, not the mids. I think.

C

[ThomasW]

I think the passively cooled A500 would be desirable to the fan cooled EP1500

[JonMarsh]

for Reference:

The Audio Critic Magazine measured a Behringer A500 amplifier(test measurements made using Audio Precision Analyzer and PowerCube). I thought that people here would be interested in the results since it appears to be a superb value.

Of special note...

-bridgable to use a high power monoblock
-balanced and unbalanced inputs
-rock steady stability into 4 ohm loads and into highly inductive/capacitive loads(required for some rare difficult loads that many recievers may have problems driving)
-$180 street price!

Signal:Noise: -99dB

Crosstalk: -55dB

Frequency Response: -0.3dB @ 10Hz, -0.1dB @ 20Hz, 0.0db @ 1000 Hz, -0.2dB @ 10kHz, 0.6dB @ 20kHz,-2dB @ 40kHz

138 watts @ 8 ohms @ 1000Hz @ 1.000% THD+N, both channels driven

120 watts @ 8 ohms @ 20Hz @ 0.030% THD+N, 1 channel driven

120 watts @ 8 ohms @ 1000Hz @ 0.025% THD+N, 1 channel driven

120 watts @ 8 ohms @ 20000Hz @ 0.045% THD+N, 1 channel driven

220 watts @ 4 ohms @ 1000Hz @ 1.000% THD+N, both channels driven

180 watts @ 4 ohms @ 20Hz @ 0.056% THD+N, 1 channel driven

180 watts @ 4 ohms @ 1000Hz @ 0.050% THD+N, 1 channel driven

180 watts @ 4 ohms @ 20000Hz @ 0.050% THD+N, 1 channel driven

Harmonics of THD are primarily 2nd order, with subsequent harmonics approaching or under -100dB.

Power output was tested from 0 degrees phase resistive load(results given above) and into other phase angles up to +/- 60 degrees. Little variation of output voltage occured, regardless of phase angle.

I.E., it's a good little 100W/ch amp at 8 ohms, that comes close to doubling down. Would probably be a good upgrade to the power section of most receivers. Would be curious to see what clipping behavior and recovery on the bench looks like, and IM distortion at low levels (how much crossover, how much low harmonics, etc). Certainly sounds like it's worth every penny of the asking price. If the Toshiba transistors it's using are the extnded beta output transistors as used in Aragon and similar amps, then this could be very recommended for the budget conscious. Only one way to know, though....


Keep expectations reasonable- this little puppy just weighs in at a little over 18 lb. For comparison, an Audiosource AMP300, rated at 150 watts/8 ohms, 230 watts 4 ohms, weighs in at ~29 lb, and costs almost 3X.

The AMP200 from Audiosource (at PE) is 80 watts RMS @ 8 ohms, 125 w/4 ohms, auto sensing on, weighs ~24 lb. These amps have autosensing on/off, 12V trigger inputs, etc, and are setup to handle HT installs and controls.

My only point here is there are a wide range of options even at modest price points.

Lastly, at a slightly less modest price point, but still under $1K, but possibly a pretty big step up from the AudioSource AMP300 for $500, the Parasound Halo A23. Street price about $850. Design by John Curl, one of the smarter guys around doing this stuff, and a real gentleman.








Well designed, well reviewed, and certainly an amp you'd be happy keeping for years. A lot closer to "high end" sound than you're normally going to find under $1K.

~Jon

[stidrvr]

I always like to see inside of amplifiers. Why? I dont know its just me. Anyway for the curious.

Linky

Linky #2

[---k---]

Jon,
Do you have an opinion about Outlaw gear?

[ThomasW]

Jon,
Do you have an opinion about Outlaw gear?

He doesn't but I do..... :W

The widow of the fellow that introduced me to audio ask me to find her a new receiver. We bought one of the Outlaw RR2150's. It's a very impressive piece of gear. I think I'm safe in assuming that all their gear is made to this same level... :T

[---k---]

Yeah, heard you say that before. I've heard nothing but good things about Outlaw. I like the idea of a 5 channel amp over a rack full of pro type gear, and their prices are reasonable. I need to resist the temptation though, so it probably would have been better for me if you guys had a negative opinion of them.

[JonMarsh]

The Outlaw receiver appeals to my sense of retro value, and has gotten nice reviews- but I don't have any personal hands on experience. In this day and age, I like seeing gear manufactured in the good old US of A.

[Dennis H]

The Outlaw multichannel amps are OEM'd from ATI (and made in the USA ). SL knows a thing or two about amps and chose ATI for the Orion. 'Nuff said.

[Bri]

Um, I don't see a single vacuum tube anywhere inside that amplifier. Must be harsh and grainy and digital sounding and stuff! :roll:

[Jonniebravo]

Chris,ThomasW,Jon...Ect, I appreciate all the detailed Information you guys always provide. It makes speaker building a lot easier for me. This week I have some free time, so I'll browse through the High End audio shops and see what I can squeeze out of the budget. If not the Behringer will have to do for now...Jon...

[cjd]

Look for something people will say can handle 2ohm. Hesitantly is fine, since it doesn't get that low, and it doesn't even dip below 4 all that much. But some people already like to stretch the truth when they say something is 4ohm stable, so...

C

[GMorris]

Potential used amps

Here are a few other good amp brands to think about. They can generally be found for 50% or less of original retail:

Proceed, Marsh, Threshold, Aragon, Forte, Anthem, Odyssey, Acurus, B&K, Parasound, and NAD.

[Evil Twin]

Used Aragons are a good value, but the price may still be an issue. At one time they seemed fairly plentiful, 8008ST and 8008BB. These, and the smaller 8004, would handle CJD's design with aplomb.

[JimS]

Does anyone have experience with Emotiva products?

They're offering the LPA1 6/7 channel amp at $499 w/ free shipping and a 5-year transferable warranty - could be interesting for ht or for folks looking at active crossovers for 3-ways . . .

weighs in at 63 lbs. and completely stable at 4-ohms according to their specs . . .

http://emotiva.com/lpa1.html

http://emotiva.com/expandedpages/lpa1expanded.html

[Hdale85]

I've been looking at the LPS-1 so been having the same questions.

[Jonniebravo]

Checked out "Emotiva" web site. These products Look to good to be true. If anyone has hands on Info, I'd like to know. I could definitely afford not only an amplifier for the RS 3ways, but possibly the Pre-amp/muti-channel power amp they are selling for $2,999.00...Jon...

[Outfitter]

I have been checking in on Emotiva products from time to time. They originally were sold by av123, and somewhat recently have spun off on their own. The best place to find feedback on their products is at the av123 forum.

I just posted recently on another forum looking for feedback on their products. I too think that they are an incredible value....please post your findings and thoughts as you research, I'd love to find out what others think about them.

http://av123forum.com/forumdisplay.php?forumid=18

[Hdale85]

Depending on what your useing this setup for I would go for the 2199.99 package as the pre/pro has a lot more features. It has HDMI and what not. If you just need it for 2 channel go for the other

Thats what I'm looking at anyways is the MMC-1 and IPS-1.

[cjd]

I actually heard an Emotiva setup - it's really hard to form an opinion based on that one listening setup, because there were so many variables. The modules were solid and well built, so nothing immediately at issue.

The setup I heard them in was exceedingly dry and uninvolving and possibly some loss of detail in some rather intricate and difficult classical I threw at it. Could easily have been the use of a digital crossover (Behringer) or the room (hotel). Drivers were Seas Millenium/Peerless sub.

C

[JoshK]

I have the Emotiva LMC-1 for my living room HT system. Its surprisingly transparent. Its nice to have a full featured preamp back in the system for TV and movie watching.

I am not a big HT guy and still have only 2 speakers for this system (Modula MTMs) but I'd say it doesn't sound bad like a lot of lesser preamps and processors I've owned and heard.

[Evil Twin]

Audio Critic Review of Beheringer A500

on his web blog

Audio Critic Review of A500

[Jonniebravo]

Thanks Evil Twin, It would appear from that Info as well as the article from JonMarsh, that the Behringer A500 Is a very good performer and quite a bargain...Jon...

[Hdale85]

The Emotiva amps are Mark Levinson designs I've heard.... Just food for thoughts If you went with the A500 you would have 2 channels of amplification. If you need 7 you would have to buy 4 of the A500's and would spend 720 bucks + shipping (unless they are still doing free shipping) The LPS-1 is 1199 and might be a better built amp and isn't TOO much more then the 4 A500's and it has the same style amp modules as the bigger Emotiva it just has less watts. Just some thoughts for you :B Chances are the Emotiva is a better amp though I can't say this from experience as I have not heard them.

[---k---]

on his web blog

Audio Critic Review of A500

Dang it Jon! There, are you happy! I clicked on the PE banner ordered one! Now, do you mind sharing with us how much of a kickback you just received?



(all's good, but will need to steathly move this one past my wife. I promised no more purchases for a while)

[JonP]

Hey... you saved nearly $30 with the free shipping! That's saving some cash! (use that line if busted)

I came very, very close myself last night...

[Evil Twin]

Dang it Jon! There, are you happy! I clicked on the PE banner ordered one! Now, do you mind sharing with us how much of a kickback you just received?



(all's good, but will need to steathly move this one past my wife. I promised no more purchases for a while)

A small Force mind push and a reminder to her that "This isn't the amplifier you're looking for" should take care of the spousal factor...

Besides, everyone knows that time flow works differently for human male minds and human femals minds, and "for a while" is a rather vague concept to guys... like promising not to ogle the female T'wilik bar servers for a while, which means, not until the next time you are visiting the cantina...