Staining/Finishing Questions

[Inu_Yasha]

This is my first time staining and finishing wood so I was wondering a few things. I am staining birch plywood (home depot) and wanted to know what steps should I follow. I remember seeing Thomas post something about using a wood conditioner before staining so I just applied one coat; do I need another coat? Also, how many coats of stain do I put down before I need to sand or put down a clear coat? What grain of sandpaper? I have a polyurathane semi-gloss.

Thanks!

[orbifold]

Inu,

Always try a test on a loose piece, a cutoff, of the material you are finishing. run one coat of the conditioner, stain, and see what it does as opposed to two coats of conditioner, etc. Birch is hard to get a 'clean' stain if you are going dark at all, so experimenting will save things, more experimenting, more saving of the end product. In other words, try to get a complete finish on junk pieces before you commit to anything on the production piece.
I have finished many a project, not speakers, and only just discovered shellac. I love it for keeping stain from looking like tiger grain, or stained plywood. A 'wash coat' diluted 1 pt shellac to 4 plus or minus pts alcohol is good, if your polyu finish coat is quality stuff, it should stick to the shellac undercoat. But you have a conditioner already, so probably keep with that.
220 grit between coats is what I use on finish coats, Ok to use 000 or 0000 steel wool on the dry stain, and get yourself some tack rags to wipe after sanding. Depending on how slick you want the end result, and how much time and effort you feel like, go down through 320, 400, 600 wet sanding with a hard, flat block and shining low-angle light and very careful cleaning between coats. Keep the coats light, and believe me, don't follow instructions on not diluting the material. Manufacturers want to sell material, they don't want you to dilute it. Almost never(!) use full strength poly, it levels much better if diluted up to maybe 10%. Again, try it on test piece and you should see what I mean.
Best of luck! :T

[WinstonSmith]

Inu,

Always try a test on a loose piece, a cutoff, of the material you are finishing. run one coat of the conditioner, stain, and see what it does as opposed to two coats of conditioner, etc. Birch is hard to get a 'clean' stain if you are going dark at all, so experimenting will save things, more experimenting, more saving of the end product. In other words, try to get a complete finish on junk pieces before you commit to anything on the production piece.
I have finished many a project, not speakers, and only just discovered shellac. I love it for keeping stain from looking like tiger grain, or stained plywood. A 'wash coat' diluted 1 pt shellac to 4 plus or minus pts alcohol is good, if your polyu finish coat is quality stuff, it should stick to the shellac undercoat. But you have a conditioner already, so probably keep with that.
220 grit between coats is what I use on finish coats, Ok to use 000 or 0000 steel wool on the dry stain, and get yourself some tack rags to wipe after sanding. Depending on how slick you want the end result, and how much time and effort you feel like, go down through 320, 400, 600 wet sanding with a hard, flat block and shining low-angle light and very careful cleaning between coats. Keep the coats light, and believe me, don't follow instructions on not diluting the material. Manufacturers want to sell material, they don't want you to dilute it. Almost never(!) use full strength poly, it levels much better if diluted up to maybe 10%. Again, try it on test piece and you should see what I mean.
Best of luck! :T

Pretty good advice. Before you seal, sand the birch but don't worry about going to very fine grits. Stop at 180 or 220. Working at a finer grit just takes longer and has the potential to cause finish adhesion problems. Take a clean lint free cloth and dampen it with mineral spirits or denatured alcohol and get all the sawdust off of it. DO NOT USE WATER. Once clean, apply the seal coat. I like Zinssers Sealer. It's dewaxed shellac and that's important for poly finishes. Most shellacs contain wax unless it specifically says otherwise. For virtually all finishes BUT poly this isn't a problem, but poly doesn't stick well to wax. Be careful here.

[Inu_Yasha]

Ok, I got a shellac I think because I had to dilute it to a certain strength before I could use it as a wood conditioner. I know it says something about not containing wax on it (I'm almost certain). I used 2 parts shellac (sanding sealer) and 3 parts denatured alcohol for the initial coat.

Do I need to sand inbetween staining layers? I've laid down 3 layers of stain so far and I plan on doing one more tonight. Also, how long should I wait to put on another layer of stain? I've been testing this on my baseplate before doing it to the actual box to make sure everything going the way I want it.

[warnerwh]

If this is your first time please take your time and be thorough. I'd use about 220 grit. You can go 320 though if you want a perfectly smooth piece it will also take off less meat. Let the stain dry before you sand!

If you have an orbital sander it will make life much easier and you'll probably do a better job with one rather than hand sanding everything. I highly recommend buying one if you don't have one, they're inexpensive.

The main thing is to make sure it's perfectly smooth everywhere. Feel it with your finger tips and look at the panels at different angles in the light. Wipe regularly when sanding with a rag that is just slightly damp with solvent.

I'd read the directions on the stain can to see what the manufacturer recommends for time between staining. The longer you let it sit between stain the darker it will be. It also depends on the temperature and humidity.

I don't know how much time you let pass between the first three coats of stain but if less than an hour I'd give it at least 2 more hours if you live in a warm climate or 3-4 if in a cool damp environment. You can keep doing it til you reach the darkness you're happy with.

That poly varnish you have is not easy to put on especially for a beginner. Be sure to thin it at least 10%. If you use a brush do not try to save a dime! Get the best varnish brush you can find. It's worth every penny I guarantee it. :T

[WinstonSmith]

I think it would be a good idea to tell us what specific stain/finishyou are using. There are many many formulations out there. Some things are water based and some not. It can make a difference. What poly are you using?

[Inu_Yasha]

Sorry for taking so long to answer. I'm using a Sedona Red stain my Miniwax and a Polyurathane Semi-gloss by Miniwax. I put a coat of the semigloss on after using some turpentine to make it a little thinner and it went on great!

I have a bit of a problem right now though... I had been putting on the stain without stirring it with a stir and the color was kinda light. Then I used a stir to stir one time when I forgot to shake the can, the color came out darker. Is there a way to lighten up a darker board? If not, can stain be directly applied to a semi-gloss finish? I want to try to get everything the same color.

[WinstonSmith]

Sorry for taking so long to answer. I'm using a Sedona Red stain my Miniwax and a Polyurathane Semi-gloss by Miniwax. I put a coat of the semigloss on after using some turpentine to make it a little thinner and it went on great!

I have a bit of a problem right now though... I had been putting on the stain without stirring it with a stir and the color was kinda light. Then I used a stir to stir one time when I forgot to shake the can, the color came out darker. Is there a way to lighten up a darker board? If not, can stain be directly applied to a semi-gloss finish? I want to try to get everything the same color.

The finishing process is seal, stain, topcoat. Applying a stain between coats is technically a glaze. It won't look the same. You are either going to have to accept the difference in coloration or sand everything down and start over again.

[Inu_Yasha]

The finishing process is seal, stain, topcoat. Applying a stain between coats is technically a glaze. It won't look the same. You are either going to have to accept the difference in coloration or sand everything down and start over again.

Thanks for the suggestion on sanding, I was able to sand out the color (it was only one layer as I started those 2 particular boards last)!

Ok, as far as the poly finish goes, is there a way to sand without it sticking to the sand paper? What I mean is that some of the poly comes off when I sand with 220 and it gets stuck in little hard clumps to the bottom of the sand paper. When it does, it makes a rub mark on the other parts that I sand. Would it be better to wet sand with a higher girt paper?

[EDS]

Would it be better to wet sand with a higher girt paper?

This is something I've been wondering lately. I have been refinishing 20 year old coffee tables and have been having trouble getting an acceptable poly finish.

[Brian Bunge]

I sand with 400 or 600 grit paper between coats of poly. I find 220 grit to be way too coarse for this.

[WinstonSmith]

Thanks for the suggestion on sanding, I was able to sand out the color (it was only one layer as I started those 2 particular boards last)!

Ok, as far as the poly finish goes, is there a way to sand without it sticking to the sand paper? What I mean is that some of the poly comes off when I sand with 220 and it gets stuck in little hard clumps to the bottom of the sand paper. When it does, it makes a rub mark on the other parts that I sand. Would it be better to wet sand with a higher girt paper?

I may be able to make your life a bit easier. Don't brush on the poly, wipe it on. Here's how.

Take a portion of the poly. Mix it 3 parts poly and 1 part mineral spirits and mix well. Buy a polishing cloth from an auto parts store or some other soft lint free material. It MUST be lint free.

Pour the mixture onto it and wipe it onto the surface. You want the cloth pretty wet at this time since it will soak into the wood. Wipe with the grain. You want to allow at least four hours to dry (at normal room temp) but no more than 24 hours between coats. If you were finishing a table then you would apply 6 to 10 coats, but I think 4 to 6 would do fine. You do NOT want to sand between coats.

It's now that you want to let the finish dry for a good 24 hours. Longer is ok at this point. Sand lightly (emphasis on lightly) with the grain using 320 grit sandpaper. You will want to use a sanding block of some kind so you are sanding with a perfectly flat surface. Wipe the dust off well. Now take more poly from the can and add 10% mineral spirits to it. Take a different piece of cloth and wipe with the grain again. This time apply coats about an hour apart. What you are looking for is to fill in whatever imperfections remain in the finish.

When you are satisfied with the appearance let it dry for a day. If you like the looks of the finish you can stop, but many people will want to rub it out so that the finish is perfect. To do that take some 600 grit wet/dry paper and use a little mineral spirits as a lubricant. Lightly sand with the grain and let the finish rest for 15 or 20 minutes. Take a clean cloth and wipe to clean things up. Apply a paste furniture wax the next day and people will be impressed :T

[Inu_Yasha]

I may be able to make your life a bit easier. Don't brush on the poly, wipe it on. Here's how.

Take a portion of the poly. Mix it 3 parts poly and 1 part mineral spirits and mix well. Buy a polishing cloth from an auto parts store or some other soft lint free material. It MUST be lint free.

Pour the mixture onto it and wipe it onto the surface. You want the cloth pretty wet at this time since it will soak into the wood. Wipe with the grain. You want to allow at least four hours to dry (at normal room temp) but no more than 24 hours between coats. If you were finishing a table then you would apply 6 to 10 coats, but I think 4 to 6 would do fine. You do NOT want to sand between coats.

It's now that you want to let the finish dry for a good 24 hours. Longer is ok at this point. Sand lightly (emphasis on lightly) with the grain using 320 grit sandpaper. You will want to use a sanding block of some kind so you are sanding with a perfectly flat surface. Wipe the dust off well. Now take more poly from the can and add 10% mineral spirits to it. Take a different piece of cloth and wipe with the grain again. This time apply coats about an hour apart. What you are looking for is to fill in whatever imperfections remain in the finish.

When you are satisfied with the appearance let it dry for a day. If you like the looks of the finish you can stop, but many people will want to rub it out so that the finish is perfect. To do that take some 600 grit wet/dry paper and use a little mineral spirits as a lubricant. Lightly sand with the grain and let the finish rest for 15 or 20 minutes. Take a clean cloth and wipe to clean things up. Apply a paste furniture wax the next day and people will be impressed :T

Wow, sounds pretty nice to me actually So with the cloth, do you let it sit in the poly/spirits mixture so that it won't dry up? Also, do you know what the exact name of the cloth is? I'm going on a date tommorow and hopefully will have some time afterwards to pick some of the cloth up.

Also, what type of furniture wax would you recommend? I have a semi-gloss poly that I'm using (I'm planning on using this in a theatre room so I don't want it to be overly shiny and distracting).

[WinstonSmith]

You can store finishing goodies in a sealed container. A coffee can with a lid, large screw top jar etc. Any furniture paste wax can be used. Wax should enhance the sheen, not make it glossy but since I won't have a finished surface to evaluate try it on a finished test piece or a small spot where it won't be seen first. That way you can determine if it's something you like. As far as the cloth goes just go to your local AutoZone or equivalent and ask for polishing cloths. You don't want something treated. Be careful about that. The packing should say if something extra has been added. Avoid anything that's been treated with silicone like the plague. With lacquers it causes real problems, but I can't imagine it doing anything positive as far as the poly sticking to the wood.

Oh something I forgot. If you aren't satisfied that the end product has an even sheen, you can use 0000 steel wool after the 600 grit final sanding and before waxing. Again go with the wood grain and you just want to even things out not use too much pressure.

Hope this helps.

[EDS]

Thanks WinstonSmith. I will give that a try.