Looking at a couple Zaph Audio projects

[HMenke]

OK, I'm still thinking about a project to build some 2-way speakers for 2.1 audio use, and I've been studying a couple of John Krutke's Zaph Audio projects. Even though I've heard a just little about Zaph on this forum, I'll go ahead and ask if anyone has built or heard some of his designs. What's attractive about them from my standpoint is the documentation that comes along with them, making the projects pretty easy to follow. Also it just plain seems like the guy has put a lot of thought, time, and effort into getting them right.

I'm looking at these two projects:

"Bargain Aluminum MTM"

http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM.html

"Seas L18/27TBFCG" MT

http://www.zaphaudio.com/audio-speaker17.html

Seems like the MTM is meant to be sealed and the MT is meant to be ported. Both of these would represent a departure for me philosophically in that they have metal-dome tweeters, of which I have a perhaps ill-founded perception as being harsh and fatiguing. After reading some Krutke, I am coming around to the idea that my negative impression may have resulted from being exposed to metal dome designs that simply had too much distortion, which had nothing to do with the tweeter material.

For cost (pre-fab enclosures included), I'm coming up with $338/pr for the bargain MTMs, and $450/pr for the L18 MT. A lot of the $112 cost adder for the L18 MT is being driven by $54 extra for Sonic Barrier damping material, $20 extra for the crossovers, and $75 extra for the Seas L18 woofers, but you pick up $54 for the smaller MT enclosures. See tentative BOMs attached.

I'm leaning toward the L18 MT because it looks like it will have better power handling/dynamic range. Thoughts?

Henry

[rumatt]

I wonder how these MTM's compare to the Modula's. The Zaph crossover is much simpler.

His side mounted subs in the sealed tower MTM are pretty interesting... Is there a down side to doing this?

http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM-2.00-MTM-Sub.pdf

[ThomasW]

Speaks for itself....

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=19121

[Outfitter]

I have completed the BAMTM recently and am very happy with what $170 in compnents and drivers get you. I have them in a 2 cu ft. enclosure, I am going to try them ported in a couple weeks. I have also have built CJD's MTM, which is all I have to compare them to. The BAMTM has better low end extension, while the CJD MTM has a more pronounced midrange. They both use different tweeters CJD MTM is the rs28a, while the BAMTM is the Seas H1212, both sound very similar. From a cost standpoint CJD's is about double. Opinion, I think that the BAMTM is a great economical design for a person on a tight budget.

[HMenke]

Speaks for itself....
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=19121

As in: DA-175-8's are so worthless they have to be given away...or so cool people couldn't wait to get their hands on 'em for free?

[joecarrow]

I wonder how these MTM's compare to the Modula's. The Zaph crossover is much simpler.

His side mounted subs in the sealed tower MTM are pretty interesting... Is there a down side to doing this?

http://www.zaphaudio.com/BAMTM-2.00-MTM-Sub.pdf

The DA175 drivers aren't as nice as the RS180, but from what I've read they are really quite good for the price. They also have most of their metal cone breakup concentrated at one frequency, allowing a sharp notch filter to do the job where the RS180 needs a little more. This is what allowed Zaph to use a simpler crossover than the Modulas. Also- the speaker you'd really want to compare this to is the Natalie Portman, the budget version of the Modula MTM.

I have the Seas H1212 (the tweeter used in both of the projects you linked to), and I love it. Certain recordings sound harsh, but you know what? Certain sounds in real life are harsh- like cymbal crashes and distorted guitars. I think it's very realistic.

[HMenke]

Outfitter your craftsmanship is intimidating..those look freakin' incredible! Do you have a build thread or site with more info on how you did it?

[ThomasW]

As in: DA-175-8's are so worthless they have to be given away...or so cool people couldn't wait to get their hands on 'em for free?

Him giving them away was the point. People sell speakers when they have value...

[Outfitter]

Yeah, the black and silver baffle looks incredible in person. First off, I am very new to this, so don't let the build be intimidating. I used 3/4" MDF with a 1" baffle. The baffle is painted with Rust-Oleum textured paint. Now the secret is the cherry colored vinyl laminate finish. Nobody except me knows that it is not the real deal. I use the PE Vinyl cherry, it's only about $19.00 for 18 feet. Plenty to do 2 speakers. Some day I will try wood laminate and stain, but for now, it's just too time consuming. Most important tip is to use a Jasper circle jig to cut all holes on the baffle.


Check out the following link, it discusses the BAMTM. It does get off topic, but does discuss the rs180 and the da175. Somehow the pics I posted I deleted.

http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=88985&perpage=10&pagenumber=1

A couple other tips to this specific build. I built a removable baffle because I wanted to be able to try different internal volumes by changing the shelf brace-not a good idea. When I decide on the final volume, I am going to glue the baffle down. It's too large a surface area for 6 screws to keep it sealed tight and it's not ridgid enough.

On future projects that are smaller, I will put the hurricane nuts into the back of the corner brace- this keeps the pressure on the back of the corner. Right now I have some that are splitting because I keep retighting to eliminate the vibration. I also like a #6 1" screw on the woofers- I tried #8 but they looked a little big and sloppy.

[WillyD]

Those look outsanding Outfitter!

[rumatt]

Yep, I'm definitely sold on the black baffles. Very nice.

How hard is it getting the laminate to line up and look good at the corners?

[HMenke]

Thanks, Thomas - just wanted to make sure I didn't miss the obvious, one way or the other.

Outfitter - pretty clever with the vinyl laminate. Fooled me! Still looks great.

Was this the paint you used on the baffle? DId you seal/prime first? http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp...ct_id=20&SBL=1

Uh-oh...got my wife looking over my shoulder, "Very nice, but where do we need those?" 8O

[Dennis H]

PE's Vinyl Tutorial

[Outfitter]

Was this the paint you used on the baffle? DId you seal/prime first? http://www.rustoleum.com/Product.asp...ct_id=20&SBL=1

Uh-oh...got my wife looking over my shoulder, "Very nice, but where do we need those?" 8O

Yes, that's what I use. It looks much better than truck bed liner. I use a basic black sandable primer- probably 2-3 coats, with extra attention on the roundover edges. They will soak up a lot of paint. If time permits, I will mix water/wood glue and paint the edges to seal them. Then I will do 3-5 coats of the texture paint waiting about 20 minutes between coats. I have read that Zaph uses a clear sealant, I haven't tried it yet, but makes a lot of sense.

[HMenke]

Tony Gee's DD8-MkII

This is interesting: Tony Gee in the Netherlands also has a 2-way MT design based on the same Seas H1212 tweeter and Seas L18 woofer, also crossed at 2kHz. http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/DD8-MkII.html

I like the cabinetry - looks pretty straightforward, low-cost, yet high end styling.

[lellis]

Ive made a pair of the seas MT from Tony, i love them and will soon be ordering the parts to make another 3 giving me 5 for HT!

[HMenke]

He just emailed me the detailed enclosure drawing today. Did you use US-spec enclosure material as opposed to the metric material (22mm) shown on the drawing? What did you use for the port? Got any pictures? Inquiring minds want to know!

[rumatt]

PE's Vinyl Tutorial

Hey, thanks. I hadn't seen that.

[tdv]

Bargain Aluminum MTM

Just finished my Bargain Aluminum MTM, a very simple, affordable, and nice sounding John Krutke speaker. The Seas H1212 is a very nice tweeter and the Dayton DA175 is a great value. I just finished them and am listening to the Eagles, Norah Jones, and Katie Melua, all of which sound great for not being broke in. These do not compare to Jon M's RS180 Modula MT/Seas H1189 but I did not expect them to, just wanted another project.

[technimac]

tdv,
Nice looking cabinets in the photo. What are the smaller MT's in between them? Are you using them as surrounds or rears?
Cheers, Bruce

[tdv]

cabs

tdv,
Nice looking cabinets in the photo. What are the smaller MT's in between them? Are you using them as surrounds or rears?
Cheers, Bruce

I finished my cabinets with rust-oleum black hammered finish, I wanted them to match the stereo rack I made. Not sure if I like the finish or not, oh well. After additional listening to the Bargain MTM I think they are a great budget speaker. My son was over and wants a pair, back to the shop.

The BIC MT's are not in use, at one time they were paired with a larger pair of BIC's in a home theater setup. They have since been replaced with Modula MT's.

[JonP]

Yes, that's what I use. It looks much better than truck bed liner. I use a basic black sandable primer- probably 2-3 coats, with extra attention on the roundover edges. They will soak up a lot of paint. If time permits, I will mix water/wood glue and paint the edges to seal them. Then I will do 3-5 coats of the texture paint waiting about 20 minutes between coats. I have read that Zaph uses a clear sealant, I haven't tried it yet, but makes a lot of sense.

Shellac is a great sealer for cutting down that "MDF thirst". Thin it down to a "1lb cut", paint it on, let the MDF drink it up. Being alcohol based, it soaks in well and dries pretty fast. I usually go back later and give it a second slathering... Hardens up the surface nicely for better sanding too...

[yousuredo2]

Be carefull using anything on top of hammered paint, what makes it turn out hammered is a silaca based product that doesnt ussualy do well with a top coat...

[tktran]

I'm sorry to dig up this old thread, but is that definitely the Cherry vinyl?

Your speakers look more like the Red Maple vinyl-

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-620

The PE website shows a very dark looking Cherry vinyl-

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=261-614

Just trying to replicate your look, but don't want to order the wrong product.

[Jim85IROC]

I used the cherry vinyl from PE, and it's definately darker than those speakers above.

Here's a pic of my speakers with the PE cherry:

[LNeilB]

Easy choice

That L18 driver is something else. I'd go with the MT - it's transparent as hell. I'd recommend the impedance correction circuit for most any application - consider it required unless your room is dead.

[Outfitter]

Sorry-

Just caught this post, if it's my speakers, it is the red maple vinyl from PE.

[adowns]

My son built a pair of the Zaph bargain aluminum MTM speakers for me and they sound great. The tweeters are the key part of this speaker. Whenever I listen to a CD that I have not listened to since I started using these speakers I think "I never noticed that before." It's hard to descibe but there is just more fine detail to the sound. The bass is not as strong as my previous speakers, large Advents. If you want hard-hitting bass you will probably have to add a subwoofer.

[cjd]

The tweeters are the key part of this speaker.

Not to disagree but... while it's a fine tweeter, the crossover is the key.

You might be surprised by how much of the stuff you've never heard before is actually solidly in the mid-woofer's territory.

C

[Finleyville]

I cannot be more happy with my Zaph L18's. You can find the thread here. . I took them to a get-together and everybody was surprised of how low this two-way goes. As with any speaker design, the room can make or break this speaker. It sounds fantastic in my house, but it sounded a little bright in the other room. The Seas H1212 tweet doesn't sound harsh at all. I think you will be pleasantly surprised with this great design.

[JJones]

Him giving them away was the point. People sell speakers when they have value...

Here's what Zaph has to say about DA175 vs RS180:

"Honestly, I like the DA175 cone better than the RS180 cone. Much more controlled in the upper midrange, and a less harsh breakup without the twin peaks."

I'll build a pair of BAMTMs, then, I'll be able to give my opinion too.

[JJones]

Just finished my BAMTM... ...These do not compare to Jon M's RS180 Modula MT/Seas H1189 but I did not expect them to, just wanted another project.

Where do the BAMTMs fall short (particularly when considering moderate listening levels)? Do you have both still? I wonder which ones you'd like better in a blind test, with the levels matched...