Iowa Gathering

[agrippa]

Hey,
I just wanted to thank everyone who attended the Iowa gathing and especially those who hosted it. I learned a lot. The speakers were great... I took the test CD and put it into my CD player in my truck (YUK!). Man my truck sounded bad. For those of us who got the CDs can someone post the artists and cds they are from? Thanks.

[Brian Walter]

Paul,

I don't have the answers to your questions regarding the artists and CD's, but I would also like to thank Jim, Jason and Doug for their hard work putting the event together. It was fun meeting everybody and listening to a bunch of really great sounding speakers. There really wasn't a bad sounding speaker in the house. A number of the mission accomplished speakers were present and did quite well in the competition. As Jim Holtz pointed out elsewhere, the Modula MT's came in first place in the budget category. I was a really fun event, I can't wait to see the pictures when they get posted.

Brian Walter

[agrippa]

What great prizes also. I have to get some speakers in this next year... a pair of OW I s for 1st prize in the mid range catagory. Holy cow is that great or is that great. Also tons of Door Prizes. I was one of the last to receive one and it was 50' of wire from PE... worth about $30. Not bad.

Hey Brian, I mentioned this on the PE board but I wonder how those RS 52's would sound in your RS TMWW?

Yours were my favorite next to the 2 super expensive, Greek god like, speakers that Wayne and John P. had... I loved them but I couldn't afford them.
I can't wait to see/hear John P's finished Wilson clones... wow.

[Brian Walter]

Paul,

I've got my reservations about using the RS52 midrange with a pair of RS225's. It may just be me, but it doesn't seem like the dome mid could keep up with a pair of 8 inch drivers unless you crossed over higher than the 8's probably want to go. Also, with the large flange on the dome, it's hard to get the dome and tweeter close enough together to take advantage of the smoother high end frequency response of the dome unless you switched to a small flange tweeter. At that point I think you are really starting all over.

I will have to admit, I liked the Accuton design the best. In my opinion, the bass was the tightest there, mids were absolutely stunning and the highs were also great. I don't really remember what tweeter they used in that speaker, was it the OW1 or an Accuton? Too bad they aren't posting the design for that speaker, but then I'm probably not going to be making any spherical enclosures for some time to come, so it really doesn't matter.

Brian Walter

[Jim Holtz]

Paul,

I've got my reservations about using the RS52 midrange with a pair of RS225's. It may just be me, but it doesn't seem like the dome mid could keep up with a pair of 8 inch drivers unless you crossed over higher than the 8's probably want to go. Also, with the large flange on the dome, it's hard to get the dome and tweeter close enough together to take advantage of the smoother high end frequency response of the dome unless you switched to a small flange tweeter. At that point I think you are really starting all over.

I will have to admit, I liked the Accuton design the best. In my opinion, the bass was the tightest there, mids were absolutely stunning and the highs were also great. I don't really remember what tweeter they used in that speaker, was it the OW1 or an Accuton? Too bad they aren't posting the design for that speaker, but then I'm probably not going to be making any spherical enclosures for some time to come, so it really doesn't matter.

Brian Walter

Hi Brian,.


I'll throw out a few ideas for what they're worth. I think the (2) RS225's would be a perfect match with the RS52. The RS225's should easily go to 800 Hz. which the RS52 will handle easily. The MDM-55 crosses well around 800 and the RS52 appears to be more robust than it. If you had concerns, the RS180's would also be a good match. Jon's alternate Natalie P. configuration in a 50 liter box is tuned to the low 30's. Sensitivity wise, the (2) RS225's after baffle step will still require the RS52 to be padded some.

The tweeter spacing isn't an issue if you use a Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon. It would also be a perfect match for the RS52's, IMHO.

You do lose some dynamic capability with a mid dome but you gain off axis dispersion and detail that only the very best of cone drivers posses. Cones do have better dynamic capability. There are always trade offs.

This configuration could be the next speaker I build. However, after hearing the Visatron drivers, I'm really taken with them. They were sensational, I thought.

Jim

[Jonasz]

I'm very intrigued by the RS52 also and I think a WWMT with RS225/RS52/ribbon will have potential to be very very good.

However, will a RS52 dome really lack dynamics when crossed at 800-1000hz? In my experience designs with tweeters crossed low, like the Orion or Phoenix, don't lack dynamics at all. Jon crosses them even lower.

Btw, is this the Visaton driver you heard?

http://www.visaton.de/de/high_end/tiefmittelton/604.html

[agrippa]

Jonasz: Those look like they could be it. They were 4" drivers... How much though?

Brian: I thought Curt had the OW1 and the other speakers were all Accutons. They were very nice but $800 for one woofer is a bit much for me.

Jim: O.k. I will bite: what cone mid would fit into the tmww that both you and Brian had? The RS mid/woofer is nice but is there a better driver for that design? Maybe I should start a new post.

[Jim Holtz]

I'm very intrigued by the RS52 also and I think a WWMT with RS225/RS52/ribbon will have potential to be very very good.

However, will a RS52 dome really lack dynamics when crossed at 800-1000hz? In my experience designs with tweeters crossed low, like the Orion or Phoenix, don't lack dynamics at all. Jon crosses them even lower.

Btw, is this the Visaton driver you heard?

http://www.visaton.de/de/high_end/tiefmittelton/604.html

Hi Jonasz,

Yes, that is the one that left a number of us drooling over the sound quality. I've heard dozens of Excel designs, and in IMHO, the TI 100 left them in the dust. It was a really tough call for me to choose between it and the Accuton. Ultra clear and detailed was the best way I could describe it. Very, very impressive, in my opinion.

I've built a number of mid dome designs based on both the Morel MSD-56, MDM-55 and Daytons "cheapy" 2" soft dome. They image like crazy, have greater detail than 98% of the cones and are silky smooth in the mids when crossed properly, but they don't have the dynamic impact of a really good hard cone driver. It's not a big deal at all but there is a difference. I prefer a really good mid dome over most cones except for the really good ones like Excels, etc. I've now added the the Ti 100 and the Accutons to my preferred list. :-) They are sweet! :T

Jim

[agrippa]

here we go

http://gallery.bcentral.com/GID4956567P4701063-VISATON-Woofers-Midwoofers/Midwoofer-TI-100.aspx

[Jim Holtz]

Jonasz: Those look like they could be it. They were 4" drivers... How much though?

Brian: I thought Curt had the OW1 and the other speakers were all Accutons. They were very nice but $800 for one woofer is a bit much for me.

Jim: O.k. I will bite: what cone mid would fit into the tmww that both you and Brian had? The RS mid/woofer is nice but is there a better driver for that design? Maybe I should start a new post.

Hi Paul,

I'm glad you could make it to the event and I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. Now to answer your questions:

The Visaton Ti 100's are $129 each so they're not cheap but they are very, very good.

Curt had a RS28 in his Exclamation! design with a RS180 mid and (2) RS225's in a transmission line cabinet tuned to 17 Hz. Wayne's 851's used an OW1 tweet, Accuton mid and a 8" Accuton base driver also in a transmission line. I think the mid was the C82 T8 but I'm not sure. It's $200. The 8" bass driver is the show stopper at $450 each. It was some of the best bass I've ever heard however. At that price it should be.

Now, there is no substitution of the mid in the RS 3-way or any other speaker without starting over with the crossover. It just won't work. That becomes a completely new design. I'd also add, unless you want to spend a lot more money on a mid driver and I do mean a lot, you'll not do better than the RS150 or RS180. I was very impressed with Curt's Exclamation! design. The mids seems a bit more relaxed and effortless in comparison to the RS 3-ways. I'm splitting hairs but the RS180 might be a bit better mid in this configuration. I'm sure others would not agree. They are very, very close, IMHO. I do like the Seas 27TBFC/G better than the RS28's though. Again just my preference.


Jim

[agrippa]

Ooooo oooo (the monkeys go crazy).

how about the TI 100 mated with the RS225s in the now famous RS tmww? Maybe this is it.

I edited this and added this
Yup... i see what you are saying. But how do you think it would sound? I have a huge pile of RS225s and a design to go with. I will most likely go with RS TMWW but the TI100 was soooo nice.

Ahhh Dreaming.

[Jim Holtz]

Ooooo oooo (the monkeys go crazy).

how about the TI 100 mated with the RS225s in the now famous RS tmww? Maybe this is it.

I edited this and added this
Yup... i see what you are saying. But how do you think it would sound? I have a huge pile of RS225s and a design to go with. I will most likely go with RS TMWW but the TI100 was soooo nice.

Ahhh Dreaming.

Hi Paul,

I think (2) RS225's, combined with (2) Ti 100's and a ribbon tweeter in a W-M-T-M-W design would be a killer and also be quite efficient. The trick is getting one of the crossover "guru's" interested in the project. This would not be a cheap project but one that has the potential to be truly world class. We're talkin' mids to die for with this one. :T

Yes, I have this thought rolling around in my head but I still haven't sold any of my speakers which means I'm still on my self imposed hiatus from building anymore speakers.

Jim

[Brian Walter]

Jim or any of you that heard the Visaton, how do you know that the detail you heard wasn't due to the tweeter rather than the midrange? I'm not saying that it wasn't, but to me at least, most of the detail is in the higher frequencies and I can't always tell which speaker the sound I'm hearing is coming from. It's just a thought that maybe the tweeter had something to do with the sound as well.

But that aside, I agree that a dual RS25 plus an MTM with the Visatons and the Seas 27TBFC would be a real winner, either WWMTM or WMTMW.

As good as the midrange appeared to be with either the Visaton or Accuton drivers, I was more impressed with the bass from the Accuton. I love tight clean bass, so I am more tempted to improve on that than the midrange. I'm thinking either a TL for the RS225's or possibly going back to my original design idea of using the RS265 HF sub on the bottom, maybe mated to a RS180 or Visaton MTM. Oh the wheels are a turning:-).

Brian Walter

[Jim Holtz]

Jim or any of you that heard the Visaton, how do you know that the detail you heard wasn't due to the tweeter rather than the midrange? I'm not saying that it wasn't, but to me at least, most of the detail is in the higher frequencies and I can't always tell which speaker the sound I'm hearing is coming from. It's just a thought that maybe the tweeter had something to do with the sound as well.

But that aside, I agree that a dual RS25 plus an MTM with the Visatons and the Seas 27TBFC would be a real winner, either WWMTM or WMTMW.

As good as the midrange appeared to be with either the Visaton or Accuton drivers, I was more impressed with the bass from the Accuton. I love tight clean bass, so I am more tempted to improve on that than the midrange. I'm thinking either a TL for the RS225's or possibly going back to my original design idea of using the RS265 HF sub on the bottom, maybe mated to a RS180 or Visaton MTM. Oh the wheels are a turning:-).

Brian Walter

Hi Brian,

It depends on what detail you're listening for. If you listen to the nuances in vocals, you're listening to the mids. If you're listening to the ambiance of the room, cymbals shimmer etc. you're listening to the tweeter. There was no question in my mind that the Ti 100 is extremely detailed.

Honestly, I found the tweeter to be the weakest link in the design. IMHO, the Ti 100 it crying for a better tweeter. Yes, a ribbon would be a perfect match or if you prefer domes, a 3/4" like an OW1 or possibly the Seas 22TBFC version.

Jim

[mmoeller]

Just wanted to say thanks to everyone involved with this event, and everyone who brought their outstanding work. This was my first event and it was great. I can honestly say that I'm hooked and will attend again. Next time I'll bring some speakers.

I'd like to add that I found, I believe it was a desing by Sam?, the MT with the Morel MDT-20 tweeter as one of my favorites. It seemed very smooth in its reproduction of the very high triangle tones. As I remember it was able to reproduce the individual tones with a great degree of clarity. Eh.. Who knows mabey my virgin ears couldn't handle the metal domes I did find the Murphy design using the RS150 and Seas tweeter as another favorite. It was really great to get to hear what everyone around here seems to hold in very high regard, and for good reason.

Hope to see you all next year. Thanks again to everyone. A great group of freindly people.

[agrippa]

I just need to get through this Christmas with out to much Debt... oh large families and a wife who loves to buy gifts.
The x-over gods may smile down upon me or us if I present an interesting combo. In my case I have to use the RS225s. A.) because I like them and B.) because I have 8 of them. But in the mean time I need to get my class going... 2 weeks until the speaker building project begins. I am stressed out about 11 students each with different designs. Ahhhh.... I am going to be making one huge order from PE in about 4 or 5 days.

[Jim Holtz]

I modeled the Visaton Ti 100 a bit more..

Hi Paul,

I think (2) RS225's, combined with (2) Ti 100's and a ribbon tweeter in a W-M-T-M-W design would be a killer and also be quite efficient. The trick is getting one of the crossover "guru's" interested in the project. This would not be a cheap project but one that has the potential to be truly world class. We're talkin' mids to die for with this one. :T

Jim

I spent some more time modeling the Visaton Ti 100 and looking at the various kits Visaton offers. I've revised my thinking a bit. I had thought a MTM format would be necessary to keep the overall sensitivity at a reasonable level but after modeling I think a W/M/T would work fine.

The way I understand it, baffle step isn't as big of issue in a 3-way as it is in a 2-way because you're typically crossing the woofer and the mid in the baffle step region. It also adds 1-2 DB of sensitivity to the mid as well. If I'm confused on this, I hope someone jumps in with a better understanding than I.

Anyway, I'm thinking a Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter with the Visaton Ti 100 mid and a Dayton RS 12" HF sub as the woofer. Based on the FR graphs plus comments by Jon, the RS315HF should be smooth enough to cross in the 300 Hz. area. The Ti 100 should cross easily at 2.5K - 3K, again based on the FR graphs. If I'm calculating correctly, sensitivity should be around 87- 88 DB which is acceptable.

Now, I need to get someone interested in designing the crossover. :W

Jim

[Dennis H]

300 might be a bit low for a single TI 100 depending on how loud you want it to play. They claim 4.5 mm max excursion but I think that's peak-peak looking at the pole plate (gap height?) and winding height.

http://www.visaton.com/en/chassis_zubehoer/tiefmittelton/604.html

[Jim Holtz]

300 might be a bit low for a single TI 100 depending on how loud you want it to play. They claim 4.5 mm max excursion but I think that's peak-peak looking at the pole plate (gap height?) and winding height.

http://www.visaton.com/en/chassis_zu...elton/604.html

Hi Dennis,

That was my 1st thought also but I then remembered how much bass it produced in a very small 2-way. It was definitely putting out very decent bass into the 70 Hz. range. It was actually quite amazing for such a small driver. The enclosure was ported of course. Modeling the driver in Unibox brings up a F3 of a around 110 Hz. sealed, which should easily allow it to cross around 300 Hz. without issues, at least according to Unibox.

I found this little driver to be quite spectacular. I checked with others that listened to the speaker also just to make sure that I wasn't dreaming and they agreed. A little sanity check.

Jim

[CraigJ]

vox

Jim,

Is this what you have in mind?

[mikec]

Hi Jim!

You sound nearly as excited with this driver in the small 2-way you heard as you did with your huge monkey coffins! :banana: How do you think they compare sonically with one another?

Cheers!

[Paul Ebert]

Geez, just when I thought I had my midrange settled (RS52)...

The thing I'm not wild about with Visaton drivers is the rising response. Well, OK, that's based on the B200 and this one - maybe they aren't all like that. But, everyone seems to think they sound fantastic, so I'm

Could I talk you all into the BG Neo3? It's quite a bit cheaper than the Fountek and I read a lot of good stuff about it. Doesn't look as snazzy, tho.

I'm curious about the Visaton KE25 ceramic tweeter. It's quite a bit cheaper than the Accutons. Wonder if anyone has heard it.

[Jed]

how do you know that the detail you heard wasn't due to the tweeter rather than the midrange? Brian Walter

I think this sums up everything. The tweeter, if crossed in the presence region 2K-5K plays a significant role in the perceived midrange clarity. Speakers should be viewed as system/snynergy of drivers- especially when discussing the sound of a summed response between 2 drivers. I have seen distortion specs for the TI100 and it does very well, but the AL130M is even lower in distortion. Another one to consider. If you are really interested I can post some specs this week from Klang and Ton magazine. Both look very good.

Jed

[Dennis H]

Jed, yeah, let's see some specs. You are of course right that the whole package -- all the drivers, the crossover, the box -- contribute to the sound and it's dangerous to single out one component as being "the one."

[Paul Ebert]

I have seen distortion specs for the TI100 and it does very well, but the AL130M is even lower in distortion. Another one to consider. If you are really interested I can post some specs this week from Klang and Ton magazine. Both look very good.

Jed

I'd be very interested. Anything on the KE25?

Thanks!

[Jed]

I'd be very interested. Anything on the KE25?

Thanks!

Yup, I've got info on that too-- you guys are going to have to wait until tomorrow though because I left my laptop at work- which has all the files.

Jed

[Jim Holtz]

OK, a little validation is in order. Here are comments by others that were there.

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/audio_forum/index.pl?noframes;read=388318

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/audio_forum/index.pl?noframes;read=388329

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=313224

http://www.pesupport.com/cgi-bin/config.pl?read=313264

And here's the tweeter which John crossed at 3.3K..

http://www.swanspeaker.com/product/htm/view.asp?id=226

Now, if you're familiar with the song Somewhere, Somebody by Jennifer Warnes on the Hunter CD, you'll understand what I mean when I describe the voices as ultra clear and easily discernable from one another as the two singers are singing over each other. The voices were vivid and real sounding. So, I'm not taking about mid range and top end air, but rather the identity and body of the vocals themselves which fall in the under 2K range.

IMHO, the tweeter is the weak link in John's design. This is a play thing for him. His reference system is John K's NaO's based on MTM Excels which I listened to in 2004. They are superb. His comments to me at the event about the Ti 100's was that he could hear nuances that he'd never heard before. He'd only had it together for 2 days and was trying to see if it needed more tweaking.

Interestingly enough, the description on the Visaton website describing the sound of the Ti 100 is darn close to what we all heard. IMHO, they easily beat Excels for clarity and detail. They're so close to the Accutons that it's tough to pick the best sound.

Measure away guys., but at the end of the day, these little gems sound superb, regardless of the measurements. :W

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim!

You sound nearly as excited with this driver in the small 2-way you heard as you did with your huge monkey coffins! :banana: How do you think they compare sonically with one another?

Cheers!

The line arrays are in another class. They are my reference speakers and I suspect that I'll continue to be a line array fanboy for a long time to come. I will not be replacing my line arrays anytime soon. The best point source or di-pole speakers I've heard, can't come close to the dynamic presentation of line arrays. Plus, nearfield listening can not be duplicated in a point source. The Ti 100's would not be a good choice for a line array.

Unless I run into a show stopper, I'll probably use the Ti 100 as a mid in my next design for the living room. I'll also use Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbons for the tweeters because I just really like them and I also have a pair. The woofer selection is still in the air however.

I'm probably "gushing" more than I should over the Ti 100's but man they sounded good. The differences in clarity between it and the various RS designs, including the 3 pair I had there, was not subtle. As I stated before, they were hand and hand with the Accutons. That's tough company to keep.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Jim,

Is this what you have in mind?

Hi Craig,

After more research, I think the Ti 100 would work fine as a single mid. I don't care for side firing woofer designs. The Classic design Visaton has listed is probably closer to what 'm thinking.

Jim

[Rudy Jakubin]

Now, if you're familiar with the song Somewhere, Somebody by Jennifer Warnes on the Hunter CD, you'll understand what I mean when I describe the voices as ultra clear and easily discernable from one another as the two singers are singing over each other. The voices were vivid and real sounding. So, I'm not taking about mid range and top end air, but rather the identity and body of the vocals themselves which fall in the under 2K range.



Measure away guys., but at the end of the day, these little gems sound superb, regardless of the measurements. :W

Jim

I agree on that song. With the 2.5's it's kind of hard to tell what's going on but with the RS52 3-ways it's clear. The guy at first is behind Jennifer then he's sharing the same mic on one verse.

I agree, measure away, T/S parameters really can't tell you how a driver will souind.
I like ribbons too!

[Rick Craig]

I spent some more time modeling the Visaton Ti 100 and looking at the various kits Visaton offers. I've revised my thinking a bit. I had thought a MTM format would be necessary to keep the overall sensitivity at a reasonable level but after modeling I think a W/M/T would work fine.

The way I understand it, baffle step isn't as big of issue in a 3-way as it is in a 2-way because you're typically crossing the woofer and the mid in the baffle step region. It also adds 1-2 DB of sensitivity to the mid as well. If I'm confused on this, I hope someone jumps in with a better understanding than I.

Anyway, I'm thinking a Fountek NeoCD3.0 ribbon tweeter with the Visaton Ti 100 mid and a Dayton RS 12" HF sub as the woofer. Based on the FR graphs plus comments by Jon, the RS315HF should be smooth enough to cross in the 300 Hz. area. The Ti 100 should cross easily at 2.5K - 3K, again based on the FR graphs. If I'm calculating correctly, sensitivity should be around 87- 88 DB which is acceptable.

Now, I need to get someone interested in designing the crossover. :W

Jim

I can take a hint

[Rick Craig]

Paul,

I've got my reservations about using the RS52 midrange with a pair of RS225's. It may just be me, but it doesn't seem like the dome mid could keep up with a pair of 8 inch drivers unless you crossed over higher than the 8's probably want to go. Also, with the large flange on the dome, it's hard to get the dome and tweeter close enough together to take advantage of the smoother high end frequency response of the dome unless you switched to a small flange tweeter. At that point I think you are really starting all over.

I will have to admit, I liked the Accuton design the best. In my opinion, the bass was the tightest there, mids were absolutely stunning and the highs were also great. I don't really remember what tweeter they used in that speaker, was it the OW1 or an Accuton? Too bad they aren't posting the design for that speaker, but then I'm probably not going to be making any spherical enclosures for some time to come, so it really doesn't matter.

Brian Walter

I think the dual RS225 / RS52 / ribbon - small dome combination is possible as long as you use high order acoustic slopes. Even if it isn't perfectly smooth in the vertical plane the horizontal coverage would be quite good. It's certainly worth a try.

[Jed]

I agree, measure away, T/S parameters really can't tell you how a driver will souind.

Who said anything about T/S parameters? We're talking about a summed response of 2 drivers creating a pleasing sound.

Some would like to know how a driver functions and its related harmonic distortion, nothing wrong with that.

I agree, what you hear from a system is valid enough to give it a try, but don't dismiss other elements of the total system. It's like when someone just buys a new spool of solid silver wire, or a new set of capacitors and says, "those caps sound great!" Well, maybe they do but it's not just the new caps or speaker wire- nor is it just the TI100s all by themselves. They might be a good incredient, but just one part to a long chain of variables.

[Brian Walter]

Now, if you're familiar with the song Somewhere, Somebody by Jennifer Warnes on the Hunter CD, you'll understand what I mean when I describe the voices as ultra clear and easily discernible from one another as the two singers are singing over each other. The voices were vivid and real sounding. So, I'm not taking about mid range and top end air, but rather the identity and body of the vocals themselves which fall in the under 2K range.

Jim

Jim, I agree with you that John's Visaton speakers sounded really nice in the area that I too would call the midrange. You may also be correct in assigning the detail and clarity to the midrange, I just didn't want to jump to the conclusion that it was the mid, only to find out later that the magic was in the combination of the midrange, tweeter and/or crossover.

I think Jed expressed it better than I did with his comment about the tweeter playing a significant role in perceived midrange clarity. It's a known fact that without the high frequency details, voices become unintelligible. I think it would be an interesting experiment to listen to John's speakers with the tweeter disconnected to see if the clarity and detail remains.

Again, I'm not saying you are wrong, we all know what we heard, but why did we hear it? what was the cause? maybe it was due to the lack of deep bass? I don't know. I hope you don't take my skepticism the wrong way, I guess the engineer in me always wants to analyze and understand things. Maybe I'll just have to buy a pair of them and do a little experimenting.

Brian Walter

[agrippa]

Brian is right and for some reason the tweeter in John's speakers are given very little credit. Personally I like that HiVi. I guess we would have to see his cross over to maybe get an idea of what is going on. However, that mid is, I believe, outstanding.

Next to the 2 really expensive sets I thought this set of speakers provided the best detail on voices.

[Jed]

As requested, here is a link to distortion specs for Ti100, AL130M, and Ke25. Let me know if it works or if you have any problems with the link.

http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/thumbnails.php?album=983

[Jim Holtz]

As requested, here is a link to distortion specs for Ti100, AL130M, and Ke25. Let me know if it works or if you have any problems with the link.

http://www.audiocircle.com/gallery/t....php?album=983

Hi Jed,

Thanks for providing the link. I don't see the KE tweeter there however. The ribbon listed looks like a Fountek NeoCD3.0 under a different name. The AL130 does look really clean. I wonder if it sounds as good as the Ti100? It's considerably less expensive.

Thanks!

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Brian is right and for some reason the tweeter in John's speakers are given very little credit. Personally I like that HiVi. I guess we would have to see his cross over to maybe get an idea of what is going on. However, that mid is, I believe, outstanding.

Next to the 2 really expensive sets I thought this set of speakers provided the best detail on voices.

I have John's crossover and FR measurements at home. I'll upload them tonight. Actually, that tweeter is a ring style planar which requires a very high crossover. He really pushed it at 3.3K.

Jim

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

Thanks for providing the link. I don't see the KE tweeter there however. The ribbon listed looks like a Fountek NeoCD3.0 under a different name. The AL130 does look really clean. I wonder if it sounds as good as the Ti100? It's considerably less expensive.

Thanks!

Jim

File Number 2 for the Ke tweeter

[Jim Holtz]

File Number 2 for the Ke tweeter

Sorry! That's what happens when you try to sneak in speaker "stuff" while at work. Thanks for clarifying.

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

File Number 2 for the Ke tweeter

Hi Jed,

One more thing. You've obviously been studying distortion results on the various drivers. How do the distortion measurements stack up on the Ti 100 compared to John Krutke's measurements? They're a different scale and I'm not sure how to interpret them.

Thanks!

Jim

[Jed]

Hi Jed,

One more thing. You've obviously been studying distortion results on the various drivers. How do the distortion measurements stack up on the Ti 100 compared to John Krutke's measurements? They're a different scale and I'm not sure how to interpret them.

Thanks!

Jim

Quickly, because I don't have much time, the distortion is listed as a percentage at the left hand side of the chart. With Zaphs, you have to do some quick math to get the percentages. However, Zaph says not to compare his results with other methods. That's why he has a whole bunch of drivers tested under similar conditions.

[Jim Holtz]

John's Crossover as promised..

Here's the crossover and measurements John sent me plus a picture of the speaker from the event..

Jim

[agrippa]

The Xover looks fairly simple.

It looks like the Ti 100 can go fairly high. might work well with a 3/4" tweeter like the OW1