HT Speakers??

[xLoSx]

Ok I started and am almost finished with my sonosub...

Now I was wondering what can be used for a HT setup either 5 speaker or 7 speaker setup....

Or is the best bet to buy prebuilt speakers??

I thought I could go MTM up front and center as well as in the rear to make a 5.1 system....

Anyone ever make a full home theather setup diy??

Im most likely going to get a Rotel 1068 and 1095 for power... Im just wondering if I can build better speakers for relatively less than I can buy them for...

[Inu_Yasha]

I've heard that one memeber here has a 5.1 setup of Modula M/T's and the RS 3 ways. I'm planning on doing a 7.1 setup with Modula M/T's, Nat P's, RS 3 Ways, and the WMTW center as I get funds in.

I see a lot of people are pleased with their Nat P's, I would fully consider those if you're looking for something to hold you over for the time being. I'm still debating right now if I'm going to start with the Nat P's or Modula M/T's as I won't be able to finish my setup until summer (when I'm out of school).

[ThomasW]

Look at the designs posted in the 'Missions Accomplished!'

Those represent exceptional value and very high performance for the $$ investment. Several people are using them for multi-channel systems.

[BobEllis]

If you're going to build in steps, I'd suggest the Nat P first. That will give you a nice 2.1 setup. The Modula MT may be a bit more refined (haven't heard them) but Nat Ps have a bit more output capability. (It's about dynamic headroom for me). If you then decide to do one of the RS three ways, you could move the Nat Ps to surround duty. I built a set of NAT Ps for a friend. You can count us in the legions of people who really like them.

If speed/ease of construction is an issue for you, go with pre-finished cabinets, such as the P-E boxes. I spend much more time finishing my boxes than building them. Not to mention that usually I spend more on finishing materials than P-E charges.

[chasw98]

I have built the RS 3ways using the Dennis Murphy XO and the Seas tweeter. I have also built the center channel that goes with it. I have also built the Modula M/T's and am in the process of building 2 more M/T's. When I am done with the whole process, I will have a first rate 7.1 surround sound system. As Thomas said, go look through the Missions Accomplished threads and pick a system that fits you, your budget, and your room. I do not believe that there is a speaker design in there that is not extremely well designed and good sounding for what it is. If possible, look for people in your area that have built some of these and ask them if you can go to their house and listen to them.

Chuck

[Inu_Yasha]

Chuck, I was wondering how well the center channel matches the 3 ways? I'm planning on using roughly the same setup as you have. Also, do your modula m/t's have the dayton tweeter or the seas? I'm trying to figure out which route I want to go with on my setup (right now I'm leaning towards the seas).

[xLoSx]

I have read almost all of the missions accomplished section I was just wondering if mixing and matching them may be a problem.. although looking for someone in my area is a great idea!

[cjd]

You should be able to mix-n-match to a large degree. Be wary doing something like building a Natalie P and then putting it on its side as a "center" though... Far as I know, only my "budget" oriented RS150 based MTM has a crossover compromised to work pretty much the same horizontally or vertically (off-axis window limitations aside) - though it's also slightly compromised to be affordable too.

DO try to work with the same tweeter and midrange across the front stage. Though they're similar, they're also different... (how's that for a generic statement? :B )

C

[chasw98]

Chuck, I was wondering how well the center channel matches the 3 ways? I'm planning on using roughly the same setup as you have. Also, do your modula m/t's have the dayton tweeter or the seas? I'm trying to figure out which route I want to go with on my setup (right now I'm leaning towards the seas).

The center channel matches very well. The biggest difference between the mains and the center is that the center was not built with as large a volume as the L/R so it does not play back as low as the L/R. Otherwise they are seamless.

I have read almost all of the missions accomplished section I was just wondering if mixing and matching them may be a problem.. although looking for someone in my area is a great idea!

All of my speakers are using the Seas tweeter, yet the crossover design between the RS 3 ways and the M/T's is quite different, but they sound very good together.

[Inu_Yasha]

The center channel matches very well. The biggest difference between the mains and the center is that the center was not built with as large a volume as the L/R so it does not play back as low as the L/R. Otherwise they are seamless.

If I'm using a sub for movies, do you think that they should (would) blend together completely? Also, about how low do the 3ways play? I listen to some stereo tracks and I wanted to play them without using the sub.

All of my speakers are using the Seas tweeter, yet the crossover design between the RS 3 ways and the M/T's is quite different, but they sound very good together.

I've been wondering this, where is the seas crossover for the RS 3 ways? I could never find it... Also, why'd you pick the seas over the dayton tweeter?

[cjd]

Sealed RS225's should reach happily low, but they'll also cross beautifully to a sub at 50-60Hz - a point where sub integration is much MUCH cleaner than even 80Hz manages. Such that you may want to keep that sub in the mix for your music listening.

C

[chasw98]

Inu:

NOTE: When I spoke of the RS 3 ways, I am speaking of the WWMT design as opposed to Brian Bunge's 3 way design. They are both 3 ways using Dayton drivers but Brian's is much larger than the other

I am using a SS RL-p15 sonosub for my subwoofer. I have equallized it using a BFD and have it crossed over at 80 Hz. It works and blends in very well with the system. I also like to listen to 2 channel audio with nothing but the 3 ways left & right, pure analog. I believe they play down well into the low 30's. They do not pack the punch of the 15 but they work rather well. Most 2 channel audio does not go down extremely deep although there are exceptions. (At least the music I listen to!).

I would have to look for the seases XO by DM but it is in the WWMT thread at the beginning, I believe.

I picked the Seas based upon the advice of Jim Holtz and the fact that my ears are not what they used to be so I wanted a little extra oomph at the top end.

[Inu_Yasha]

Inu:

NOTE: When I spoke of the RS 3 ways, I am speaking of the WWMT design as opposed to Brian Bunge's 3 way design. They are both 3 ways using Dayton drivers but Brian's is much larger than the other

Ah, I got it mixed up. I was thinking you were referring to Brian Bunge's MTMWW 3 way.

I picked the Seas based upon the advice of Jim Holtz and the fact that my ears are not what they used to be so I wanted a little extra oomph at the top end.

So the seas plays louder than the daytons? I didn't know that. As far as sonic signatures are concerned, is one any "better" than the other?

[dynamowhum]

Be careful to determine if you want ported or non ported because of the different crossover designs.

[Brian Bunge]

Be careful to determine if you want ported or non ported because of the different crossover designs.

Whether or not he chooses to build the cabinet sealed or ported is irrelevant to the different crossover designs.

[Mudjock]

Jim's comments re: the Dayton vs. the Seas tweeters refer largely to the extreme HF behavior. The Dayton is a somewhat "polite" tweeter in that it rolls off a little about 15 kHz and the ultrasonic peak common to all metal domes (that I am aware of anyway) is well-damped. The Seas tweeter (H1212) has more output about 15 kHz and a significant ultrasonic peak, which drives cjd and some pets nuts - but most of the rest of us can't hear it.

[cjd]

I wouldn't say the TBFC/G drives me nuts, but it sure hurts long-term listenability for me. I think it just hits a sensitive spot. Super tweeter otherwise.

C

[chasw98]

Ah, I got it mixed up. I was thinking you were referring to Brian Bunge's MTMWW 3 way.



So the seas plays louder than the daytons? I didn't know that. As far as sonic signatures are concerned, is one any "better" than the other?

Don't get me wrong here. I did not say they play louder. But there is a little bit of a rise in the top end frequency response with the Seas. They have been described as having a brighter sound than the RS28. I have tried the RS28 in my center channel and did not think there was a whole lot of difference. but there is a little bit more "sparkle" to the Seas. Others may describe it differently, but they are both very good tweeters.

[dynamowhum]

When I said be careful I should have said with the MTs and MTMs. Jon is now coming out with those cross over designs. Sorry I was not more specific.

[Inu_Yasha]

The Seas tweeter (H1212) has more output about 15 kHz and a significant ultrasonic peak, which drives cjd and some pets nuts - but most of the rest of us can't hear it.

I wouldn't say the TBFC/G drives me nuts, but it sure hurts long-term listenability for me. I think it just hits a sensitive spot. Super tweeter otherwise.

This sound wouldn't be like the sound that an old boob tube has when its left on without anything displaying? I have a class in which the teacher before us leaves the tv on and I have to turn it off when I get there as the high pitched noise it makes drives me up the wall!

Also, which tweeter's crossover is cheaper (money wise)?

[soho54]

This sound wouldn't be like the sound that an old boob tube has when its left on without anything displaying?

Not the exact sound, but the effect is the same. :B

[Mudjock]

This sound wouldn't be like the sound that an old boob tube has when its left on without anything displaying?

I'm sensitive to this sound. The effect is really much more subtle with the H1212. I use my H1212/RS150 MT's as mains in an HT system. They can get a little zingy with poor quality cable feeds - but I attribute most of that to the fact that they tend toward accurate rather than forgiving. I've never had any real issue with CD's or DVD's (or even CATV, as long as the reception is decent) having a peaky top end. The dog stays in the room when the system is playing.

Overall, most people, myself included, really like the H1212. It will just have a little more top-end sparkle than the RS28a, which sounds a little more controlled - but less airy. The choice really comes down to personal preference, and hopefully this thread can help people who haven't heard both make a good decision.

[joecarrow]

I build the Modula MT with the Seas H1212, and in my experience it seems quite accurate. Only certain recordings are painful to listen to, and most of those either have a lot of low fidelity recording and/or distortion effects, or else sustained high frequency textures from things like synthesizers. Honestly, these sounds might hurt my ears if I were to hear them in person.

I played drums in a high school marching band, and played drum set in a college band- so I really know what drums and cymbals are supposed to sound like. So far so good with the H1212, but I haven't been able to give it the final exam yet. That would involve getting a large and well regarded amp and turning up the volume to see if the dynamics hang in there. Apartment living prevents that for now... but I like what I hear so far.

On another note, I was kind of surprised by how cheap the H1212 looks. I didn't think I was expecting that much, but the plastic faceplate definitely made me feel like it's a cheap tweeter. It definitely doesn't sound like a cheap tweeter- but if you want to build something without grilles I think the Dayton tweeter would probably look nicer.

[xLoSx]

Does anyone think some will design a dipole design using the same componenets... (speakers) that is??

Just because I have been told by many people that dipoles can work a lot better as surrounds....

Im also in the process of designing my HT room... unfortunately because of budget/(fiancee...almost wife constraints) the room wont be started for another year to year and a half

[Dennis H]

Does anyone think some will design a dipole design using the same componenets... (speakers) that is??

Just because I have been told by many people that dipoles can work a lot better as surrounds....
(

Not dipole surrounds but dipole mains, ala Orion/Arvo, that could also work as surrounds. Most receivers these days have an octave band graphic EQ. I'm thinking the TMWW might work on an open baffle without major XO changes if you let the receiver's EQ adjust the response flat down to say 80 Hz to cross to a sub. Hard to say if it would work without building one but I get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about it.

[Inu_Yasha]

So the high pitched noise isn't so bad that it isn't bearable? Would an eq take care of the problem? cjd, have you heard both the seas and the daytons? Which one (in your opinion) sounds better if you exclude the fact of the high frequency hump?

Hmmmmmm, didn't know that the seas has a plastic faceplate... Could someone post a picture?

[Jim Holtz]

So the high pitched noise isn't so bad that it isn't bearable? Would an eq take care of the problem? cjd, have you heard both the seas and the daytons? Which one (in your opinion) sounds better if you exclude the fact of the high frequency hump?

Hmmmmmm, didn't know that the seas has a plastic faceplate... Could someone post a picture?

I'll throw in my $.02 worth. Maybe more

I think Mudjock (Scott) summed it up quite well. The H1212 is an excellent sounding tweeter with a lot of body and the proper amount of sparkle to my ears. The RS28 is an excellent sounding tweeter but a bit dead sounding on the top end, IMHO. The H1189 (27TDFC) has more air on the top but less body than the H1212 or RS28. The H1212 is my pick and I consider it to be a real over achiever. No EQ necessary, IMHO.

If you don't like the "sparkle" on the top end, swap voice coils (available from Madisound) for the 27TDFC and you now have 27TDFC tweeters. They're the same except for the domes.

I can't agree with Joe that they're cheap looking. If you compared them to $120 Hiquphon OWIII's you'd find the H1212's look pretty darn good.

Jim

[Habs4life]

mmmmmm, didn't know that the seas has a plastic faceplate... Could someone post a picture?

http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind...21227&pid=1005
These are fine sounding tweeters to be sure especially considering their modest price.I replaced a pair of Vifa D25-05' aluminum domes with these(along with with neccessary CO changes) and the improvement was considerable. To me the SEAS units are far superior and the Vifas were almost unlistenable.
As far as looks go the grid on H1212 doesn't look as nice as the older H398 but I wouldn't say they look cheap.

[BobEllis]

Not dipole surrounds but dipole mains, ala Orion/Arvo, that could also work as surrounds. Most receivers these days have an octave band graphic EQ. I'm thinking the TMWW might work on an open baffle without major XO changes if you let the receiver's EQ adjust the response flat down to say 80 Hz to cross to a sub. Hard to say if it would work without building one but I get a warm fuzzy feeling thinking about it.

Sorry to burst your bubble Dennis, but there's no way the existing XO will work if you try to run the TMWW as a dipole. Unless the baffle is extremely wide, you'll need to do something about the dipole rolloff. Your receiver's EQ would have to be more flexible than most and allows shelving filters, you're out of luck. (typical graphic equalizers will just muck it up.)

Also, the RS150 just doesn't have the displacement to go down to 300 Hz at a reasonable output level. The suspension isn't particularly suited to dipole operations either.

[cobbpa]

Not to overflood this thread with tweeter speak, but some discussion came up a few months ago about a low pass or notch filter adapted to the H1212 to cut down that supersonic peak. If I understand right, couldn't one design be fitted for use in multiple crossovers, since the top side is otherwise untouched in the current topologies?

[Dennis H]

Sorry to burst your bubble Dennis

My bubble's doing just fine thanks. I've looked at the transfer functions and I think a typical HT receiver could do it with an octave-band graphic EQ. The goal is something close to an acoustical B2 (-3dB) rolloff at 80 or 100 Hz. When you look at the poles of the RS drivers, plus the dipole rolloff, plus the receiver's EQ, I think it could work. But then I haven't done it so this opinion is worth exactly what you paid for it.

Also, the RS150 just doesn't have the displacement to go down to 300 Hz at a reasonable output level. The suspension isn't particularly suited to dipole operations either.

Nonsense. Above 300, on a reasonably wide baffle, say a foot or more, the RS150 is just as loud in a dipole as it is in a monopole.

Edit: SL's measurements of the Phoenix midrage show how the dipole rolloff starts (-3dB) around 300 Hz.



Edit again: the pic doesn't show it but the woofers will be floor loaded giving a 6dB boost. SL compensates for that in his active XO with a 6dB cut from 200 down to 100. So the receiver doesn't have to boost as much down low as it looks like from the free space midrange plot above.

[Inu_Yasha]

cjd and Brian Bunge, I see that both of you have the Dayton RS 3 Ways; what center channel do you guys use? Also, about how much did it cost to make a pair of the 3 ways?

chasw98 Would you say that your 3 ways have enough output to fill your listening room when you're listening in stereo (I'm really not too sure how to word that question)? Also, how much did it cost for your LCR set?

Thanks everyone for answering all of my (noobish) questions

Chris

[chasw98]

chasw98 Would you say that your 3 ways have enough output to fill your listening room when you're listening in stereo (I'm really not too sure how to word that question)? Also, how much did it cost for your LCR set?
Chris

Yes, my 3 ways will more than fill the room, dining room, kitchen, hallway, and bedroom if desired. And that is without a subwoofer (which I prefer for 2 channel listening). Powered with a good beefy amp, they will sound very nice at high volumes. More than I can stand.
How much did they cost? Where do I start.......... I would have to estimate that, in the end, I probably put about $800.00 for the pair into them. I used Oak veneer, built the crossovers on mil spec Fr4 glass epoxy boards, overbought on XO components, numerous nickel and dime trips to HD and Lowes, etc. If you are really cost and budget conscious, I think I've seen it where a set can be built for right around $600.00.

Chuck

[Brian Bunge]

I'm currently just running in stereo, but I'm in the process of building a WTMW center with a crossover design that Chris did. He feels, at least based on the sims, that it should be a good match for the mains. You can find the design buried somewhere within that 42 page long thread.

As far as cost for the mains, I believe I have just over a grand in them, not counting the roughly $300 it cost me to have the gloss black finish painted on the baffles, backs, and baseplates. I might be a little off on that though, and I have a PE and Madisound dealer account that saved me a little money on parts. Also, at least $300 of the total cost was in MDF and veneer. Two sheets of sequence-matched figured cherry veneer cost me around $200 and the 3 sheets of 1" MDF was $100.

[Inu_Yasha]

Yes, my 3 ways will more than fill the room, dining room, kitchen, hallway, and bedroom if desired. And that is without a subwoofer (which I prefer for 2 channel listening). Powered with a good beefy amp, they will sound very nice at high volumes. More than I can stand.

Wow, that's a good thing to hear. What amp are you using to drive them? One thing I was worried about was that the single mid would be strained at higher volumes. Does it ever seem strained to you?

Brian, when do you think you'll get your center done?

[Brian Bunge]

As soon as I get around to assembling the xo's (already have the parts) and ordering the 3 sets of binding posts I need from DIYCable.

[Dennis H]

This is getting way off topic but I decided to see if a receiver's graphic EQ could really equalize either the Chris/Brian 3-way or the smaller 3-way, built on an open baffle, so it could be crossed to a sub at 80 Hz. I'm still learning LspCAD so I gave their H-frame model a shot with an RS225. The RS270 should be similar. Basically, it models two horns back to back and I made the horns very shallow to simulate 2" sides. I don't think it's accurate much above 300 Hz as it shows deep nulls that SL points out don't happen in the real world but it should be pretty good below 300.

Anyway, the target response is -3dB at 80 with a 12dB/octave rolloff below there so it will work with the receiver's XO. It looks pretty dang good to me. The filters are +2 at 63 Hz, +4 at 125 Hz and -5 at 250 Hz, all Q=1. Most receivers have a +/- 6dB range for the filters so it looks like it would work.

[BobEllis]

I stand corrected. Thanks Dennis.

[Inu_Yasha]

Wouldn't the open baffles have really low output; from what I see it has roughly 74db max... Isn't that too low for HT? I wouldn't mind trying the 3 ways in open baffle before I make a box to see how it would sound though

[JonP]

So the high pitched noise isn't so bad that it isn't bearable? Would an eq take care of the problem? cjd, have you heard both the seas and the daytons? Which one (in your opinion) sounds better if you exclude the fact of the high frequency hump?

Hmmmmmm, didn't know that the seas has a plastic faceplate... Could someone post a picture?

Head on over to Madisound, or the Seas site, they have pretty good pictures. Mad I think, has face on pics for the VC replacement parts.

I don't think they look exactly "cheap"... but if you were expecting machined metal faceplates...

[Dennis H]

Wouldn't the open baffles have really low output; from what I see it has roughly 74db max... Isn't that too low for HT? I wouldn't mind trying the 3 ways in open baffle before I make a box to see how it would sound though

That graph is just to show the shape of the curve using an nominal 1 volt input to one driver. You might well need an external amp to get the best out of the speakers but I think that's true of the box versions as well given the low impedance of the 3-ways.