Living with the Natalie P. speaker. Several thoughts...

[fjhuerta]

Hi all!

I finished building my floorstanding Natalie P. a month and a half ago. It's quite a beast, measuring 1.30 meters tall, 38 cms. deep, and 22 cms. wide - pretty imposing (I wanted to do a big design because the space it'd be in is an open one, and quite tall).

They weren't supposed to, but they ended up replacing a pair of Monitor Audio Silver RS8 speakers. I simply had no place for them. So that helped me do meaningful comparisons with my "everyday" speakers.

I've used them for a month now. I felt I just had to wait a bit more to form an opinion on them. I checked the crossover three times to make sure I hadn't made an error. I toed them in, out, moved them around the room... I broke them in with loud music. I tried them with a couple of different preamps and amps.

This is what I've found. Please feel free to share any comments you may have about my findings.

Associated equipment:
McIntosh C-22 clone tube preamp.
Rotel RB-1070 power amp.
Sony DV-NS900V SACD player.
MSB Link III DAC with upsampling upgrade.

Listening impressions:
This speaker is very unforgiving. It may be the most unforgiving one I've ever owned since I sold my old MartinLogans because of this. Badly mastered CDs will rip your ears out.

I can safely say many CD's in my collection have been relegated to the "I don't hear these anymore" section. They are shrill, the midrange glares a bit, and the highs are piercing. And I'm talking about the CD's, NOT the speaker.

This never happened with the RS8's. At least, it happened a lot less.

But feed them nicely mastered sources and things change radically. The speakers simply disappear. Gone are the painful mids and highs, and it's all replaced by pure, sweet music. I won't try to describe their sound - it's just the way I expect musical instruments to be. It's that simple.

These speakers are really, really detailed. They bring out the best and worst in every mastering. Far more so than any other speaker I've ever heard. And they can go as loud as I want them to.

They also look incredibly cool. I just love those drivers.

Conclusion:
This is a hard thing for me to say. I'm sure the speaker is better than 99.9% of commercial products selling for the same amount. I'm certain they have been designed with the highest accuracy in mind. I'm convinced they sound much, MUCH better than my RS8's (especially in detail retrieval) when fed the right material.

But I see very little use for a speaker that makes 75% of my rock collection unlistenable. It's not that the speaker is wrong - it's so right, in fact, that I can't seem to be able to tolerate much of my music anymore.

I like them a lot. I'll probably keep them. But, while I was building them, I designed a far smaller MTM with titanium woofers (the W4.1337s) and the RS-28A shielded tweeter. I think I voiced them with a slight BBC dip, because they aren't as aggressive as the Natalie's. They aren't as detailed and accurate, either.

But I can live with their sound. And I think this is what matters.

Maybe this is what is so great about DIY. The same drivers, with different designs, can satisfy most of our needs, and it needn't be a "one size fits all" situation. I'd expect in a perfect world, every mastering engineer would know what he was doing. Sadly, this is not the case.

[cjd]

Yup, sounds like you could use a bit of a BBC dip on the Nat P's.

Can you name some of the albums that are causing you grief? I'm curious - I find very little unlistenable on any of my projects, and I'm not a fan of BBC dip either.

C

[Jed]

I'm sure you played around with room placement too, but I've found if the speakers are not placed in the room properly, and you listen far enough away where side wall bounce causes a problem, then things can get shrill in the 1K-5K region pretty quick with most speakers.

Jed

[fjhuerta]

Hi C,

I can think of a couple I've listened to lately. These are off the top of my head, it's not really a complete listing.

Sting - ...Nothing like the Sun (MoFi)
The Beatles - The Capitol Years, Volume 1
The Manhattan Transfer - Greatest Hits (or the hits album, I can't remember the name)
Queen - The Game
Norah Jones - Come away with me (especially track 1)

There are others, but I forget about them.

[Marzen]

Can you name some of the albums that are causing you grief? I'm curious - I find very little unlistenable on any of my projects, and I'm not a fan of BBC dip either.

C

Every AC/DC, Ted Nugent, and Styx cd I own sounds like a train wreck on these, and the other RS series builds as well. I just chalked it up to the engineers choice of eq. On the flip side: the Alman Bros, Robyn Trower, & Alex Harvey never sounded so good. Go figure...
(I'm not sure I should have admitted to owning some of those albums ops: )
edit: I just remembered...20 yrs ago I would intentionally scoop the mids out, now I really prefer it as flat as possible. Tastes do change.

[augerpro]

Marzen you've hit on one of my fears of going the diy route. I bought some Onix Rocket 760s a few months ago and started really enjoying music again. Unfortunately I've realized early LedZep is recorded like garbage. Even the Remasters versions. I have modern punk that sounds much better, despite the fact that most punk is purposely high in distortion.

I have yet to throw on some other older stuff like Hendrix and see what it's like. Not to good probably.

Pink Floyd on the hand sounds excellent from all time periods.

[jonathanb3478]

Norah Jones - Come away with me (especially track 1)

Is that the SACD, or CD version?

If SACD, stereo or multi?

[rumatt]

opcorn:


I'm curious to hear others thoughts on this. I experienced a similar sentiment when I bought my first set of "good" speakers (paradigm studio's). I used to listen to old beatles cd's. Not any more.

It would kinda suck to build DIY speakers just to make the problem even more extreme.

Maybe it's as simple as a some crossover tweaks to make them sound better for your musical preferences.

[TacoD]

I agree with rumatt, maybe the x-over need some work to adept for your preferences. And maybe someone else should take a look at the x-over to check if everything is wired properly.

Once I made an x-over for someone and I had sent the x-over by mail to this person. After some month's this person said that the x-over was wrong, couple of months later when he rebuild the x-over he discovered he had wired the HP wrong.

[jonathanb3478]

Maybe it's as simple as a some crossover tweaks to make them sound better for your musical preferences.

Sorry to do this again ( ops: ), but...

Maybe if it is recorded badly, it should just sound bad? Hearing the full level of atrociousness is worth it to me if the good stuff sounds as good as it possibly can.

If it is really horrible, I will just listen to it on my computer with the rest of the MP3s. :twisted:

[Jim Holtz]

Hi C,

I can think of a couple I've listened to lately. These are off the top of my head, it's not really a complete listing.

Sting - ...Nothing like the Sun (MoFi)
The Beatles - The Capitol Years, Volume 1
The Manhattan Transfer - Greatest Hits (or the hits album, I can't remember the name)
Queen - The Game
Norah Jones - Come away with me (especially track 1)

There are others, but I forget about them.

The only CD I have on your list is Norah Jones. Can you describe what you are hearing? This isn't the best recording in the world but it's not that bad.

I have the Natalie P's, Modula M/T's, RS 3-ways and various other speakers in house that I've built and yes, they are much more accurate than you're average run of the mill mid-fi speakers, but unlistenable?

My line arrays are by far more revealing than any of the speakers I just mentioned and I'm not hearing anything beyond excessive compression and a bit of hardness in the piano on cut #1.

Also as asked by another poster, is it in the CD or SACD version and what are you using for playback? The Sony or MSB?

Jim

[fjhuerta]

Is that the SACD, or CD version?

If SACD, stereo or multi?

AFAIK, every version comes from a 44.1KHz PCM master, so it shouldn't matter. For the record, I was listening to the SACD stereo tracks.

BTW, I should add:

Def Leppard - Vault

To the list of albums that are too aggressive sounding on the Nat P's.

[fjhuerta]

The only CD I have on your list is Norah Jones. Can you describe what you are hearing? This isn't the best recording in the world but it's not that bad.

I have the Natalie P's, Modula M/T's, RS 3-ways and various other speakers in house that I've built and yes, they are much more accurate than you're average run of the mill mid-fi speakers, but unlistenable?

My line arrays are by far more revealing than any of the speakers I just mentioned and I'm not hearing anything beyond excessive compression and a bit of hardness in the piano on cut #1.

Also as asked by another poster, is it in the CD or SACD version and what are you using for playback? The Sony or MSB?

Jim

On track 1, Norah's voice when she sings "but you'll be on my side" (IIRC) sounds piercing in the mids. It hurts! I'd describe it as "hardness". I listen to it with the Sony outputs while playing SACDs.

Then again, discs like Steely Dan's "Hollywood Kids" sound incredible, without any hints of hardness or glare, etc. So I know it's not the speakers, or a badly wired crossover.

For the record, I checked the crossover by drawing the schematic after I built the crossover and comparing it to the original schematic. Then I built the speaker and checked the impedance plot. It's identical to the reference one.

I should qualify the "unlistenable" statement. Some CDs are unlistenable - not every one of them. They are unlistenable because I feel there are too much mids and highs. Badly mastered CDs usually sound like this. Good CDs (such as every DCC I own) sound very balanced and nice. Most SACDs I own sound terrific. So I feel it's not a design problem, but a mastering one.

[fjhuerta]

I'm sure you played around with room placement too, but I've found if the speakers are not placed in the room properly, and you listen far enough away where side wall bounce causes a problem, then things can get shrill in the 1K-5K region pretty quick with most speakers.

Jed

I'm curious about this, Jed.

Maybe I should post a pic of the speakers' placement and my listening room. Sure, it doesn't have any acoustical treatment (my wife will only tolerate my hobby up to a point), and it doesn't have any rugs whatsoever - it's all hardwood floors, bare walls, etc. As I said before, this hasn't been a problem for other speakers I own - maybe that extra flatness of the Nat-P's is the key here.

I also wonder whether the toe-in is the issue. As of yesterday, I eliminated any toe-in, and placed the speakers firing completely forward, something I hadn't done before.

[Jim Holtz]

On track 1, Norah's voice when she sings "but you'll be on my side" (IIRC) sounds piercing in the mids. It hurts! I'd describe it as "hardness". I listen to it with the Sony outputs while playing SACDs.

Then again, discs like Steely Dan's "Hollywood Kids" sound incredible, without any hints of hardness or glare, etc. So I know it's not the speakers, or a badly wired crossover.

For the record, I checked the crossover by drawing the schematic after I built the crossover and comparing it to the original schematic. Then I built the speaker and checked the impedance plot. It's identical to the reference one.

I should qualify the "unlistenable" statement. Some CDs are unlistenable - not every one of them. They are unlistenable because I feel there are too much mids and highs. Badly mastered CDs usually sound like this. Good CDs (such as every DCC I own) sound very balanced and nice. Most SACDs I own sound terrific. So I feel it's not a design problem, but a mastering one.

Thanks for the response. After rereading my post, it didn't come across as nicely as I intended. Sorry, not enough coffee yet. :W

Anyway, here are a couple thoughts. Why not the best of both worlds? Get an equalizer to use on the recordings that are objectionable, roll it out when listening to good quality CD's. I see PE has several listed for under $150.

Another option is to convert to computer based music by by buying a Squeezebox. The ripping process cleans up poorly recorded CD's to the point that they sound much better. You can't make a good recording out of a crappy one but it can be improved substantially through the process. I rarely listen to SACD anymore since converting to Squeezebox. Regular CD's rival SACD for sound quality through the Squeezebox, IMHO.

Are you in the Midwest by any chance? The Iowa DIY event will have a number of the speaker projects here at HT Guide to be listened to. I'm also hosting a get together at my house the evening before the event to talk shop, listen a bit and have a good time. Free food!

Anyway, you're most certainly welcome to join us.

Jim

[ThomasW]

As I recall from Javier posting pics of his IB sub, the room that's in would appear to have a ton of 'slap echo'. So room treatments (rugs, thick decorative blankets, curtains, etc.,) on the floors/walls at the first reflection points will help.

Also it might be helpful to attenuate the tweeter a few dB.

[fjhuerta]

Hi Thomas,

The speakers aren't in the same room with the IB. I took a pic a while ago of them - the only difference is, they are now placed with the tweeters pointing inward. I hope this gives an idea of the place they are in - which is a completely open space with tall ceilings.

[Jed]

Hi Thomas,

The speakers aren't in the same room with the IB. I took a pic a while ago of them - the only difference is, they are now placed with the tweeters pointing inward. I hope this gives an idea of the place they are in - which is a completely open space with tall ceilings.

A quick test to see if it is the room would be to put them in another room with more damped qualities. See if the harshness remains. That's a lot of wood in there- placing the speakers further away from that back wall might help matters- and definitely get an area rug.

Another thing that might have some merit is the variables of woofer break up nodes and tweeter sensitivities. For example, basically Jon's crossover was voiced using his drivers so if the woofers you own have a different cone breakup, much of the harshness will remain or not damped as well. Also, it appears the RS28a's are now sent out with a sensitivity rating within plus/minus 1DB. That's a pretty big difference, so cutting the tweeter level may be all your speaker needs. Since you have such a reflective room, you may have to cut the tweeter even more.

Jed

[cjd]

(paradigm studio's)

Now there's a set of speakers I call unlistenable!

I don't have *any* of the albums mentioned I don't think.

I do remember thinking the Nat P's sounded like they wanted a bigger box, but I've never had harshness issues with any of mine. I'll have to dig through more recordings.

One thing I have noted on mine in the past - if the amp isn't up to the low impedance, it will definitely go to the harsh end of sound.

C

[fjhuerta]

Thank you very much for your input to all!

I've begun wondering yet again whether the crossover is properly built. As I said before, I've checked it 3 times, and the impedance plot seems OK.

The other thing I'm thinking is that the speakers aren't properly broken in yet. Or that I need to still play with the placement.

I'm wondering whether there's another way of checking that the crossover is properly built, other than the actions I've taken. I suppose they are fine. Or whether I should place them with tweeters on the inner side, or the outer side... I'm not willing to give up on them. I've worked very hard to get right to this point!

Again, thank you all for your suggestions.

[jonathanb3478]

AFAIK, every version comes from a 44.1KHz PCM master, so it shouldn't matter.

I did not care what it came with, just what you were using when you listened. :T

[Brian Walter]

Hi,

I recently built the RS-3-ways (they sound very similar to the Natalie P's only more bass) and found the same thing as you're describing. I think that we are/were so used to speakers that were either not very flat and/or lacked detail, that the combination of detail and flat response is just doesn't sound right too us. After living with my RS-3-ways now for a few months, I've gotten used to them, but agree with you, on poorly recorded material, (most old rock recordings) the sound is basically unlistenable. Good recordings can sound fantastic, except to me the balance still seems slightly off in the female vocal range. I would probably prefer it if that range were recessed about 1 db or so.

I put an old Moody Blues CD in the other night and my wife said to me, "boy does that ever sound awful". This coming from someone who thinks a $50 boom box sounds just fine. So while I really like how well recorded music sounds played through my speakers, a large portion of the music I used to listen to is now in the "don't bother" pile. For your information, I padded down the tweeter in my speakers about 1 db, and that seems to have helped quite a bit. I think if I were to pad it any more it may help with the "unlistenablity", but you would certainly notice the roll off in the top end. I suspect that a BBC dip would be more to my liking.

In all fairness, I should note that even though my old speakers weren't the greatest, they too made poor recordings sound bad, just not quite as bad, I was still able to listen to them. I guess I'm just disappointed that older rock music was recorded so poorly. It's going to take time to acquire new music that I like and is recorded well. I was listening to Dire Straits "Brothers in Arms" CD the other night, and boy is that CD ever recorded well.

Brian Walter

[morbo]

FWIW, I have the modula M/Ts and regularly listen to the Norah Jones track you mentioned, though its the redbook version. I find this recording to sound great through the modula, even at pretty high volumes. The part that you refer to is quite a 'swell' dynamically, and sounds a bit forward, but not harsh in my setup.

I do agree that some albums become unlistenable, though I'd say the proportion is closer to 30% or so... but on my gear, in my room, this is not one of them, in fact its one of my favourites to listen to with these speakers.

[JoshK]

I think it is a bit of all of the reasons above. I have a slap echo style resonance in my room that I've had some struggles with taming. This was much more exaggerated with the Modula MTM's (similar to Nat P's) than with another speaker I had before. However, the Nat P's are much more neutral and flat in FR.

The "some recordings sound like ass" problem is a key struggle that I think more audiophiles deal with than like to admit. One solution is to add tone controls to your preamp. Tone controls done right don't have to be in the 7th circle of hell. Another solution is to build a preamp that has a couple different line stages built in, something like Mapletree's switchable linestage.

They have options for passive and two different tube linestage topologies in one preamp. This could be done DIY fairly straightforward'ly (not a proper word, I think). One stage could be ultimate in transparency while the other adds bloom when crappy recordings are chosen. I am doing something along these lines as Rock is my main choice of listening.

Lots of modern rock recordings that I listen to are done extremely well, better than lots of the jazz recordings my fellow club members listen to, but many sound like ass. To me the music comes first and if the band's music is good but the recording is bad I won't dismiss it because of audiophile snobbery. This is the torment of the audiophile. My solution is to be able to choose line stage for the music selection or maybe I'll look into tone controls.

For now, I just focused on dampening the ringing in my room which went a long way to make it all more tolerable. I'd say this is at least 70% of the problem in my case, maybe yours as well.

I also found that stuff like Led Zep's early recordings actually sound quite good on LP but are wretched on CD. I am not a huge LP uber alles kind of guy but I do think many classic rock albums sound much more listenable on LP.

[JoshK]

Then there is the ever true conundrum, that the more transparent the downstream components are, the more nasties are revealed that reside further up the chain.

[Dan B]

FWIW, I have the modula M/Ts and regularly listen to the Norah Jones track you mentioned, though its the redbook version. I find this recording to sound great through the modula, even at pretty high volumes. The part that you refer to is quite a 'swell' dynamically, and sounds a bit forward, but not harsh in my setup.

I do agree that some albums become unlistenable, though I'd say the proportion is closer to 30% or so... but on my gear, in my room, this is not one of them, in fact its one of my favourites to listen to with these speakers.

I also own the Modula MT's and prety much agree with Morbo. If Nora Jones is "unlistenable" It seems to me you have some kind of problem. I listen to Eric Clapton and LOVE it on my Modula's!
I don't have the Queen album you mentioned but I have two others. I haven't listened to them for years but when I put them in they did sound harsh. Interesting, even with a lousy room these Queen albums are the only albums I haven't liked. Maybe I should digg up some more old rock stuff? Hmmm.... how about The Ramones? Hee Hee Just kiddin...

Good Luck!!

[WillyD]

I'll echo the Modula MT owners' thoughts. I never say to myself, "Gee, this stuff is just unlistenable on my MTs".

Sure, poor recordings/masters sound worse than good stuff, but it surely doesn't stop me from listening to what I want to.

[morbo]

I should also say that I am using very mundane source and amplification (pioneer receiver as pre/pro, carver receiver as amp, stock marantz cd63 as source), so maybe that is why I don't notice any issues.

[ThomasW]

Pssst, don't tell anyone, but a stock Marantz CD63 is a really good low buck CD player.... :T

[TacoD]

:agree:

I am always shocked that people claim that a part of their record collection is not listenable anymore. Yeah, some records have a smaller soundstage or sound not the same as on the old rig. But I don't believe in loudspeakers which only work for 50% of the music collection. There should be an error or it is a totally wrong match with your room/ equipment.

I did a TM with Seas/ Dayton RS180 and Scanspeak/ Dayton RS180 and I never heard the sharpness you describe. (used Cauer filter a la Jon).

[Brian Walter]

:agree:

I am always shocked that people claim that a part of their record collection is not listenable anymore. Yeah, some records have a smaller soundstage or sound not the same as on the old rig. But I don't believe in loudspeakers which only work for 50% of the music collection. There should be an error or it is a totally wrong match with your room/ equipment.

I did a TM with Seas/ Dayton RS180 and Scanspeak/ Dayton RS180 and I never heard the sharpness you describe. (used Cauer filter a la Jon).

I guess I don't understand why you are shocked that people claim part of their record collection is not listenable? Maybe you happen to have a lot of well recorded music, I know that isn't the case for me. I don't think a smaller soundstage has much to do with what we are describing either, some recordings simply sound awful.

I am also a little confused by your statement that you don't believe in loudspeakers which only work for 50% of the music collection. Are you questioning whether speakers can sound bad with 50% of the music or expressing a dislike for speakers that do sound bad with 50% of the music? Based on your following statement, I get the impression you are saying that if a speaker only sounds good on 50% of the music that it must be due to an error in the speaker or a poor match with the room or equipment. I think we are in partial agreement here, but I think the poor match is between the speakers and the music, not the room or equipment, although the room and equipment surely play a part in the sound of the speakers.

Brian Walter

[ThomasW]

I am always shocked that people claim that a part of their record collection is not listenable anymore. Yeah, some records have a smaller soundstage or sound not the same as on the old rig.

What's a 'record'? ..... :B

[Jim Holtz]

Hi C,

I can think of a couple I've listened to lately. These are off the top of my head, it's not really a complete listing.

Sting - ...Nothing like the Sun (MoFi)
The Beatles - The Capitol Years, Volume 1
The Manhattan Transfer - Greatest Hits (or the hits album, I can't remember the name)
Queen - The Game
Norah Jones - Come away with me (especially track 1)

There are others, but I forget about them.

I was listening to my system last night and ran across Norah Jones as I was flipping though the music on the Squeezebox. I rarely listen to track 1, and after listening to it again, I remembered why. It is a nasty recording with a lot of hardness in it. It's particularly annoying with the volume up. I was listening through my linearrays, BTW, so it's not just with the Natalie P's or RS 3-ways. This is not a reference recording by any standard.

The quality of my system has improved over the years with both equipment and speaker upgrades. The more accurate it has become the worse bad recordings sound. My tastes in music have evolved with my system improvements to the point where I have a large variety of well recorded to killer recordings that I listen to regularly. The "crap" is tucked away and I never listen to it. I've not become so attached to any particular music that it's a crisis for me not to listen to it. There are so many well recorded disks to choose from that I'd like to own, I can't buy them all.

Jim

[fjhuerta]

I was listening to my system last night and ran across Norah Jones as I was flipping though the music on the Squeezebox. I rarely listen to track 1, and after listening to it again, I remembered why. It is a nasty recording with a lot of hardness in it. It's particularly annoying with the volume up. I was listening through my linearrays, BTW, so it's not just with the Natalie P's or RS 3-ways. This is not a reference recording by any standard.

The quality of my system has improved over the years with both equipment and speaker upgrades. The more accurate it has become the worse bad recordings sound. My tastes in music have evolved with my system improvements to the point where I have a large variety of well recorded to killer recordings that I listen to regularly. The "crap" is tucked away and I never listen to it. I've not become so attached to any particular music that it's a crisis for me not to listen to it. There are so many well recorded disks to choose from that I'd like to own, I can't buy them all.

Jim

Jim, thanks for confirming my suspicions. At least I'm not going crazy

I'm very interested in the Squeezebox. I've read a bit about it, and I think it could use it a lot. I'm wondering though - is it only available online? My sister lives in the States, so she could bring it to me. But I wonder if I can get it in some store.

[Jim Holtz]

Jim, thanks for confirming my suspicions. At least I'm not going crazy

I'm very interested in the Squeezebox. I've read a bit about it, and I think it could use it a lot. I'm wondering though - is it only available online? My sister lives in the States, so she could bring it to me. But I wonder if I can get it in some store.

I did buy mine online from Slim Devices but I do know they have dealers set up around the world. You might contact them and see if they have dealers that are located closer to you.

I really like the Squeezebox. I had mine modified by Red Wine Audio (analog only) and enjoyed it very much. However, it's also a killer transport stock and I'm currently using in that manner. Having your whole CD collection available at your fingertips is an experience that soon spoils you.

Jim

[knifeinthesink]

The very first thing that crossed my mind when I read your first post was "ill bet the rooms untreated".

I think that looking at the crossover as a likely problem when you have a highly reflective, untreated room is kind of like having four flat tires and saying "my car isn't tracking very straight. I better get the frame realigned." The room may not be the problem your trying to identify but its likely to be a problem nonetheless, and a pressing one at that.

This to me is the first most obvious, and easiest, thing to fix. Why let your room degrade the quality of sound from a pair of speakers you spent so much effort on.

The room isn't a minor detail. Its about HALF THE EQUATION!

I was horrified the first time I ever measured a speaker from an inch away and then moved the mic back to where I sit. I was seeing MAJOR suckouts and peaks that where many times more then the threshold of audibility. My immediate thought was, "whats the point of hand crafting interconnects and speaker wire and shopping for fancy caps that have no measurable effects when the room is totally mangling the sound"

The second thing that crossed my mind is to get an eq (i think the behringer everyone likes is about $100) and have a preset for nasty, ear ripping recordings.

Dont forget also, that every system is different, and there is a reason its called a "system" You may have something else in the chain that is bright.

All that said, while my current system is quite forgiving (which I like) I used to have a really nice system that had the same effect as you described. I had a really big pile of "unlistenables".

heres I site with some interesting info on the room. http://www.decware.com.

Google acoustic treatments and check out some others. Great info out there.

Good luck.

[knifeinthesink]

oh yah. Do you have measuring equipment?

If not, the behringer mic is about $40 us and you can get a behringer pre amp (mic800 or something like that) for about that much again. Then you can take measurments and get some insite into whats going on. It will probably be an eye openner.

[David Meek]

With wood floors, wood wall panelling, glass doors to one side, and large, flat-surface tables you've got a VERY unforgiving room to deal with.

Initially (and temporarily) try putting wall-hangings/curtains/a blanket or whatever behind and to the sides of the speakers. Don't look for sonic nirvana yet, just do it and see what kind of changes you get in the sound. If you get something (I'm betting you will) you like, then start delving into the details of room acoustics and how they can affect your speakers.

P.S. You did some nice work on the Natalie Ps. :T Don't give up on them yet.

[ThomasW]

Might just be easier increase the attenuation on the tweeter.

Could use a toggle switch one setting for the harsh CDs another for the good stuff

[fjhuerta]

I think I will take some measurements in room, in my listening position. It may truly give me a clue on what's going on.

Meanwhile, this thread has had a soothing, therapeutic effect. I think I'm beginning to appreciate my Natalies a lot more

[CraigJ]

Hi Javier

O.K., I had to run and play Nora Jones on my Arvos. Actually, I think what you are hearing on the Nora Jones CD is pretty accurate. Not only is track 1 harsh on the Arvos, I find track two even worse to listen to. I totally agree with Jim's assessment, "It is a nasty recording with a lot of hardness in it. It's particularly annoying with the volume up."

Good luck with your decision.

Craig

[fjhuerta]

Thanks a lot for all your help!

I've decided to attenuate the tweeter a bit. But I'm wondering - should I just insert a resistor after the crossover? If so, where should I start... something like 1 or 2 Ohm?

[fjhuerta]

Ok, I did some work on my Nat P's this weekend. This is what I found:

1) Frequency response measurement: Other than a slight 3 dB or so dip from around 1 KHz to 3 KHz... wow, this speaker is FLAT. Flat as a ruler. I suppose the dip may have to do with the fact that I measured them in less than optimal conditions. But I'm very amazed at how perfect the FR looks. So now I know the X-over and the drivers are OK.

2) Placed some foam on top of the tweeter. This made the speaker a lot more listenable. I actually loved them.

3) Placed a 6 Ohm resistor across the tweeter terminals. This brought forward the best sound heard yet. But the detail was somewhat obscured. I assumed the impedance was dropping far too low for the speaker, too. So I removed the resistor.

4) Padded the tweeter by 1 Ohm. This was the best solution by far. I re-measured the speaker, and now they drop a bit on the higher frequencies (IIRC, around 1 or 1-5 dB's). It tamed the piercing mids, and I think the high frequency detail is still there (I didn't pay much attention, I was enjoying the speakers!).

The padding resistor is very easily removed (it's just a little jumper before the + cable), so I can remove it when / if I ever place some rugs or other things in the room.

I suppose that most speakers I have had there have a recessed midrange and exaggerated highs and lows, since, as I said before, I had never measured such a flat speaker in my room. I suppose that's the reason I found them unlistenable!