Dual Sonosub project

[newroswell]

Guys, I'm about to start a dual sonosub build, and I need to have what I've come up with sanity checked (not that building two sonosubs is sane) and hopefully get some suggestions.

On a whem, I snagged about 78" of 24" Sonotube. So I've been modeling 24" x 38.5", which comes out to about 260 liters after end caps/port/driver. I've plugged the specs for the Sound Splinter RL-p15D2 into WinISD 0.44 and tuning for 16Hz, so I'm at 6" x 27.25" port tube.

I've got a Klipsch SUB12 now, which I consider decent, since it's the only sub I've ever owned.

Am I on track here? Am I tuning too low? Should I be looking at different drivers? Are my calculations off?

What's missing from my plan is the amp. I'm not sure if I want to go with panel amps on each sub, or a rack component. How many watts is it going to take to really get these drivers rockin?

Thanks for any and all advise in advance.

Kevin

[dyazdani]

I use a Behringer EP-2500 and get great results. You could run both subs off of one and it is reasonably priced around $300.

[SteveCallas]

Definitely not turning too low. This design - 260 effective liters, 6" port that is 30" long, and 600-900 watts - has been proven many times over to be a very solid and top notch performer. 24" tube is wider than I would have used though, because a 30" long port in a 38" long tube with the driver taking up waht, maybe 7" inside the tube, just won't work. You'd ideally want at least 6" clearance between the port opening and the back of the driver. Any chance you could return that tube for some 22"?

[newroswell]

24" tube is wider than I would have used though, because a 30" long port in a 38" long tube with the driver taking up waht, maybe 7" inside the tube, just won't work.

Steve I was hoping to put the port on the bottom? I was trying to keep the height down a little by going 24", they even have 36"!. They probably won't exchange it, but I want to do this right. I really appreciate the help. If this isn't going to work out RIGHT, I'll be going back for 20".

Anyone have any ideas for a 24" x 78"? I've already brought it in the house to stake out the back corner of the room.



Kevin

[SteveCallas]

A Fi Audio Q18 LLT design would make good use of that tube, but I'm still a bit cautious with recommending that driver due to possible excursion-related distortion.

[WillyD]

A TC-2000 would work too....24" diameter tube, cut to ~46" long.

[newroswell]

A Fi Audio Q18 LLT design would make good use of that tube, but I'm still a bit cautious with recommending that driver due to possible excursion-related distortion.

So, to make sure, putting the port on the bottom with the driver isn't a good idea? Is it generally just a bad idea? Or just the way the diminsions work out.

Kevin

[newroswell]

A TC-2000 would work too....24" diameter tube, cut to ~46" long.

WillyD, you're talking about the 15" here?

I would still need to go with a top vent port? I not trying to shop for the answer I want to hear, I'm just trying to make sure I understand (a little) that that is the best option.

Kevin

[SteveCallas]

Yeah, the TC 2000 would work, but then you're left with a 32" piece of 24" tube.....not enough to build a second. I suggested the Fi Q18 because then he could at least get more use out of the tube. If you are ok with disposing of some tube though, then the TC 2000 15" svc would be a great option.

You don't want the driver and port on the bottom, as you'll be left with TINY sections of MDF between the driver and port and then around the driver and port as well. Also, you want to provide your port openings at least as much clearance as the diameter, and by putting them both on one end cap, the interior port opening is gonna be extremely close to an interior side wall of the enclosure. The sub will still function of course, but you'll likley pay for it in audible port turbulence.

Any reason why you don't want the port on top?

[Dennis H]

There's nothing wrong with a bottom port if it will fit. It looks a bit tight with a 24" tube but you could probably make it work. 15.5 + 6.5 = 22". That only leaves you 2" of wood for the 3 gaps -- driver-tube, driver-vent, vent-tube. And you'll need to fit in another hole for the terminals. All those holes would make the baffle a bit weak. Multiple layers of baltic birch plywood would be stronger than MDF if you decide to go that way.

[newroswell]

That only leaves you 2" of wood for the 3 gaps -- driver-tube, driver-vent, vent-tube. And you'll need to fit in another hole for the terminals.

I'm seeing the light now.

Yeah, the TC 2000 would work, but then you're left with a 32" piece of 24" tube.....not enough to build a second. I suggested the Fi Q18 because then he could at least get more use out of the tube. If you are ok with disposing of some tube though, then the TC 2000 15" svc would be a great option.

When I hear you and WillyD say great option I'm getting excited. I don't mind the 32" unused piece. I think I'll go this route, and if I need more base, build another. Maybe that 32" scrap could be turned into a sealed sub?

You don't want the driver and port on the bottom, as you'll be left with TINY sections of MDF between the driver and port and then around the driver and port as well. Also, you want to provide your port openings at least as much clearance as the diameter, and by putting them both on one end cap, the interior port opening is gonna be extremely close to an interior side wall of the enclosure. The sub will still function of course, but you'll likley pay for it in audible port turbulence.

Any reason why you don't want the port on top?

I was worried about something falling in, or even with a cover a drink getting spilled.

Thanks so much guys. Back to the amp, I'm thinking now I want a panel amp near the sub, so I can just run the sub output from my Yamaha receiver out to it and not have to worry about running 50' of 8/10/12 guage from the entertainment center equipment. I'm still looking for something with 700-1200 watts?

Kevin

[SteveCallas]

I was worried about something falling in, or even with a cover a drink getting spilled

The darn thing is gonna be ~56" tall with legs, end caps, and a baseplate.....unless you have a party with NBA players, I can't see someone spilling a drink down the port :T

Thanks so much guys. Back to the amp, I'm thinking now I want a panel amp near the sub, so I can just run the sub output from my Yamaha receiver out to it and not have to worry about running 50' of 8/10/12 guage from the entertainment center equipment. I'm still looking for something with 700-1200 watts?

Ehhh. You can locate the pro amp near the sub if you want, but I wouldn't go plate amp. A bridged Carvin HD900 or a Buttkicker amp would work. Neither gives you the option of powering a second though.

[WillyD]

When I hear you and WillyD say great option I'm getting excited. I don't mind the 32" unused piece. I think I'll go this route, and if I need more base, build another. Maybe that 32" scrap could be turned into a sealed sub?

It would definitely be one hell of a performer. Much, much better than your Sub12.

And like Steve said, either the Carvin HD900 bridged, or the Buttkicker power amp would work well. Both are available for under $300.

[newroswell]

Ehhh. You can locate the pro amp near the sub if you want, but I wouldn't go plate amp. A bridged Carvin HD900 or a Buttkicker amp would work. Neither gives you the option of powering a second though.

OK.

Should I be going with the TC-2000 SVC or TC-2000 DVC? I don't see either in WinISD, so I guess I'll have to plug in the parameters. Are there any other recommendations on the driver itself? Going with one sub, I want to make sure I've got THE ONE, so I don't need to build that second unit. I'm gonna pull the trigger here real soon.

Kevin

[SteveCallas]

You want the single voice coil version.

[newroswell]

TC-2000 SVC, TC-2000 DVC, RL-p15D2

A quick check with WinISD comes out like so for 300 liters. WinISD is showing error in the titlebar for some reason.

[SteveCallas]

Give 320 effective liters with a 6" diameter port that is ~26-27" long with roundovers on both ends and 900 watts a try. That would be my recommendation.

[WillyD]

Yeah, you want to tune in the area of 14.8-15Hz, with the TC2000.

[newroswell]

OK guys, this is great, the 14-15Hz and 320 liters is a go. I guess I'll go with the EP2500 amp. I've got an idea on how to mount it as part of the base without anything being attached to the tube (I know, no holes or glueing anything to the sides!). That way I can run my receivers sub line output to the back of the room into the EP2500, and if needed power second sonosub in the other corner.

[newroswell]

I've been pretty busy with my subs, and I'm to the point where I have to make a few final decisions. All I can say is, I wouldn't have even attempted this without such help from so many people, and I really appreciate it. And I'm back for just a little more help.

There has been such a flurry of sonosub design discussion going around, I'm hoping to get the very latest thoughts, before things are completely "cut to length" this weekend.

I have 1.5" MDF top/bottom plugs, that fit very snug. In fact, it's somewhere between snug and tight. When these are in, that tube is sealed, no need to commit forever with liquid nails. It would hold water without leaking a drop until the MDF gave way. Glued to each plug is .75" solid red oak at 26" dia.

I found that elusive 6" sonotube for my port, which will be offset from the top center, with about 5" between the port and inside sub wall. The port is 29.25" long, and slips through the 1.5" plug, stopping at the red oak top where a .75" round over for flare will be. This makes for 30", .75" of which is .75" round over. No cover planned. Rear speakers may sit on top, which is the reason for the offset from center.

Tube body is 24" x 54", which comes out to ~360 effective liters after accounting for plugs, port, driver. This seems as much as 6" longer than everyone else is going? Would like to go 48", WinISD graphs don't change much checking the difference.

TC-2000 mounted bottom center, recessed .75" through red oak (26" dia), mounted directly to 1.5" MDF.

Sub bottom will sit 4" above red oak (26" dia) base on five 1.5" round posts.

Each sub will be powered by a BKA1000.

After a little break in, first "good and loud" test track will be Sammy Hagar's Heavy Metal, then mostly home theater, except when I'm on my stairclimber for 45 minutes a day.

No specific questions I guess other than port and body tube length, but if you see room for improvement, shout it out please!

Kevin

[ssabripo]

surprising nobody has mentioned a nice LMS5400 18" on this puppy....OH the possibilities!!! here is your sono with a 6" x35" port using this 18" LMS5400:

[SteveCallas]

The port is 29.25" long, and slips through the 1.5" plug, stopping at the red oak top where a .75" round over for flare will be.

When you say "slips", how loose is it? If there is some wiggle room, you may want to put some caulk or liquid nails in the gap to create a very snug fit.

Tube body is 24" x 54", which comes out to ~360 effective liters after accounting for plugs, port, driver. This seems as much as 6" longer than everyone else is going? Would like to go 48", WinISD graphs don't change much checking the difference.

Again, 320 effective with a 26-27" long port would do fine.

Rear speakers may sit on top, which is the reason for the offset from center.

Ehhh, just make sure you don't crowd the port.

After a little break in, first "good and loud" test track will be Sammy Hagar's Heavy Metal, then mostly home theater, except when I'm on my stairclimber for 45 minutes a day.

I'd also suggest moving it around a bit while taking FR sweeps to find the best spot. Also experiment with opening and closing various doors - surprisignly, it can affect FR quite a bit.

[newroswell]

When you say "slips", how loose is it? If there is some wiggle room, you may want to put some caulk or liquid nails in the gap to create a very snug fit.

Yes slips in easier than those top/bottom plugs! It's a perfect fit if I say so myself, but it will need a little Silicone II Glue and I bet it will be pretty hard to pull out, but not be permanent. I'll set it, and check it out before putting plugs in, and if I can move it, I'll pull it out and liquid nail it.

I'd also suggest moving it around a bit while taking FR sweeps to find the best spot. Also experiment with opening and closing various doors - surprisignly, it can affect FR quite a bit.

I'll move them around. No doors though. 26' x 16' carpeted room, high vaulted ceiling, opens into large kitchen and hallway.

Thanks again to everyone, and double thanks to you Steve.

[newroswell]

surprising nobody has mentioned a nice LMS5400 18" on this puppy....OH the possibilities!!! here is your sono with a 6" x35" port using this 18" LMS5400

Well, I kinda looked at it, but it's not shipping. It looks like a great contender to be the heavy weight champ of Sonosubs. But the bang for buck isn't going to be as nice. I didn't want to be the first to try a $1000 driver design.

In the end, I'll be running a single 320 liter TC-2000 on a BKA1000, and one of our friends will have talked me out of the other. I'll probably have it running at 20% of it's capacity.

I can bake a cake because I can follow directions. I can build a sonosub because of the awesome group of people like Steve that keep answering the same questions over and over from newbe's like me.

Kevin

[ssabripo]

Well, I kinda looked at it, but it's not shipping. It looks like a great contender to be the heavy weight champ of Sonosubs. But the bang for buck isn't going to be as nice. I didn't want to be the first to try a $1000 driver design.

In the end, I'll be running a single 320 liter TC-2000 on a BKA1000, and one of our friends will have talked me out of the other. I'll probably have it running at 20% of it's capacity.

I can bake a cake because I can follow directions. I can build a sonosub because of the awesome group of people like Steve that keep answering the same questions over and over from newbe's like me.

Kevin

yes...it certainly is NOT the best bang/buck solution....heck, you could build 2-3 driver solutions that will beat it for less.

But for a single driver, price is no issue, size is no issue, solution, it is hard to resist.

and no worries about following instructions.....the build process of the sono will be the same no matter what driver you use! :T

[SteveCallas]

I can bake a cake because I can follow directions

Lol, you bake cakes :B Point and laugh, point and laugh.

[newroswell]

Lol, you bake cakes :B Point and laugh, point and laugh.

I haven't lately, but I never follow the whole pre-heat oven step. They always tell you to do that last! If they want the oven preheated that should be step one, turn on the oven!

Kevin

[BigJim_inFLA]

I bake cakes. Quite lucrative actually. Wedding cakes as a side business. It pays for all of my HT gear... :B