My new speaker sounds "muffled"

[nox9colt45]

I just got done building the One of the Modula MTM's with the RS tweeter inplace of the seas. They sound somewhat muffled though, the tweeter doesnt seem to be putting out the highs that my fluance speakers are puting out, although it sounds a bit more natural. I was wondering if i did a good amount of dampening material? I'm 99% sure i did the crossover correctly. I triple checked and had someone else double check for me.



Dampening is done on the side walls of the back wherever the corssover is not, and all on the back wall. I have no sound dampening on the back of the baffle.
Sonic Barrier 1/2" is the material i used.

Any thoughts? thanks

EDIT:
I did go with the shielded version of the RS tweeter, to make the whole speaker shielded, could this make a difference? I thought i read somewhere that its a very small, if even knoticable difference

[kano32]

Did you connect the drivers with correct polarity? Drivers may be out of phase. Maybe go through and resolder the joints just to make sure. Hop

[nox9colt45]

They are connected correctly. The more i listen to it the more i like it. I think it's just a lot different from my old fluance speakers ($300 for a 5 speaker system). Also, going from soft dome to aluminum dome. Voices are much much more clear i knoticed off that bat.

Although i am still not too sure how much sound dampening mat's i should of used. I might buy some stuffing and test a bit.

Thanks, jon, great speakers.

[kano32]

The foam is probably ok. Most people have not been using both foam and stuffing. I found this out when I asked about material for my Nat P's. I took out all of the stuffing and just left the foam lined walls. I think my sound great.

[nox9colt45]

I have read around more on dampening, and i saw your post Kano, in the nat p's thread. I was wondering how much you used? I also saw that Exocer had it on the brace, behind it on top, bottom and sides. This is less then i have, (i have it on every wall behind brace where crossover isnt and on top bottom and sides in front of the brace. I did also knotice not too much air being pushed out the port.

Is this too much? i know its not easy for you guys to say, im going to run tests, but if i take the foam out, it is not going to be too easy for me to get back in, so was looking for some insight.

Thanks a lot guys.



EDIT again:

QUOTE from Modula MTM Thread.

4.Acoustistuff-1/2 lb. per box sound right?

4. That sound about right- I use just a little behind each woofer for improved midrange damping. I also use Whispermat on the sides and part of the back to kill midrange resonance. It's an acoustical foam with a mass loaded vinyl backing. PE's sonic barrier foam is somewhat similar.

A lot to test/think about =\

[derekbannatyne]

Your inductors don't seem to be layed out right either, do you think that might be causing a problem?

[nox9colt45]

always a posibility, i am at work atm and will get pictures i took which are at home. One thing i did, which is really hard to explain is...

Example Crossover:



On the RS180 crossover, i took c3 and moved the points up to intersections 1 and 3. I also took the bottom of C2 and moved it to intersection 0. I assumed this was ok, but always good to clarify with people. My roomate/brother took a lot of electronics classes and said with electircity, that should not make any difference.

I did not use that tweeter design, because i used the RS tweeter, just used that picture for an example. So that is not what is off.

Lastly, this should be asked in Modula thread, but since i already got this thread going, the tweeter +/- is backwards from the RS180 terminals. Mis-print, or normal?

[nox9colt45]

Crossover i used. I did not use C10 and R7 in the RS180 crossover because i am not placing them close to walls.



Here is my Crossover



This is pre-solder, but its the same connections. The black line on top right is where the wire i have there leads to, i didnt have it going pre-solder because peices wouldnt stay put for me. I am pretty sure i did it all correctly. Hard to follow though. It was my first x-over so its kinda sloppy, and big.

[Exocer]

Hey nox9colt45,
I replaced those two peices of eggcrate foam you mentioned with some fiber glass behind the braces (top and bottom) and around the port tube. Bass is great, Vocals sound richer. This didn't effect the top-end much however.

[nox9colt45]

Thank you for the response, although i may have said something wrong. I did not use the egg crate, i used Sonic Barrier 1/2.

I did just however, put in approx 1/2 lb of poly fil, maybe a little less. Helped a bit. It is sounding very very clear. Bass is iffy, but i am used to a tower speaker, highs are clearer and more natural, unlike my old soft dome tweeter. The soft dome tweeter is also a lot louder and snappier then the RS tweeter. Have other people knoticed the same thing?

More i listen to it, the more i like it. The sound is very different, and i think that is what scared me the most. I already got a sub, so the lacking low end isnt a big deal. Only thing is most people say the low end on these are great. Does this mean this speaker could sound even better?

More testing to come.

[BigJim_inFLA]

I'm not an experienced speaker builder by any means, but from what I've seen here your inductors are not placed well. Inductors should not be next to one another whenever possible, and if they need to be positioned close they should be oriented at right angles to one another. The two inductors at the bottom right of your photo are close enough that their values will be significantly altered during use. Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge can comment on it. Look in some of the threads in Mission Accomplished for pics of completed crossovers to see what I mean.

Jim

[dlneubec]

You definitely need to reorient some of those inductors. For example, on the top board, if you take the green middle inductor and rotate it upward so that is stands on it's edge, orineted so that a line thorough the center of the hole in the inductor is parallel to the big cap next to it, that should fix that one. Another way to describe this is that it will put a line drawn trhough the center hole of the vertical inductor perpendiclar to a line drawn from the center point of the other two inductors. I hope my explanation is clear.

One the bottom board, take either of the inductors and rotate it up the same way so that a line through the center of the hole is perpendicular to the top edge of the board. You do not want to be able to look through the center hole of the vertical inductors and see another inductor.

Then, make sure these two bards are well away from each other in the enclosure so that the inductors do not interact from board to board.

Good luck.

[mmoeller]

I'm not an experienced speaker builder by any means, but from what I've seen here your inductors are not placed well. Inductors should not be next to one another whenever possible, and if they need to be positioned close they should be oriented at right angles to one another. The two inductors at the bottom right of your photo are close enough that their values will be significantly altered during use. Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge can comment on it. Look in some of the threads in Mission Accomplished for pics of completed crossovers to see what I mean.

Jim

I would say the same thing. The fields created by the inductors on the small board are certainly coupled. I believe that one of them should be stood on edge.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/coils.htm

This website shows the effects.

[kano32]

[QUOTE=nox9colt45]I have read around more on dampening, and i saw your post Kano, in the nat p's thread. I was wondering how much you used? I also saw that Exocer had it on the brace, behind it on top, bottom and sides. This is less then i have, (i have it on every wall behind brace where crossover isnt and on top bottom and sides in front of the brace. I did also knotice not too much air being pushed out the port.

Is this too much? i know its not easy for you guys to say, im going to run tests, but if i take the foam out, it is not going to be too easy for me to get back in, so was looking for some insight.


I took all of my stuffing out of the box. I have the 1 1/2 egg crate foam in my cabinets. My friend liked how clear they sounded so I am no longer their owner. From what I can figure out you will need to dampen "to taste".

As far as the tweeter goes, I just turned my treble nob on my Harman AVR330 to the 2 o'clock position and that gave me the treble I wanted. I also turned the bass nob almost all the way up and loved how the RS drivers handle the bass. While I loved the nat p's I am going to build the RS 3-way towers and center for my new home theater room.

Sorry if I didn't help much. Get those inductors repositioned, learn to forget about colored commercial speakers and enjoy the clear uncolored sound of your new speakers.

[nox9colt45]

Well, a lot of good info, nice link on the inductor tests. Good info to know. First project mistakes leads to good learning experience.

Anyone have any good way of getting wood glue and/or liquid nails small project unstuck? I think there is enough liquidnails on the inductors to take some sort of a saw/knife and cut through it without damaging the inductors. The wood glue is holding the crossover boards down.


I feel like a burden on the forums, and all this help is GREATLY appreciated. Thanks to all of you.

[joecarrow]

Thats going to be tricky. The plywood is probably your weakest link, so I would see about tapping a wood chisel under there, and working around to see if you can separate the inductor from the wood that way. Since the board is already glued in the cabinet, that kind of rules out just cutting the section of plywood from the board and leaving the inductor intact. Just be careful not to damage your capacitors.

Also, don't feel bad about asking a lot of questions- as long as you make a good attempt and bring a good attitude, that's what's important. There are a lot of people reading and learning who might have the same questions you have.

[Dennis H]

Liquid nails never really hardens and it doesn't stick to wood all that well -- nothing like yellow wood glue -- so you should be able to work a putty knife under the coils. Be careful not to scrape any insulation off the wires. Keep the knife touching wood.

[nox9colt45]

The chisel worked GREAT! 2 inductors off. Although, 1 of the inductors i took off a VERY small amount of insulation. I would take a picture but my brother has seem to taken my camera for theweekend :evil:

The amount taken off is about a dot from a pen on 1 wire, and a dot from a freshly sharpened pencil on another. Best way i can describe this. How much will this effect the overall outcome? Should i buy a new inductor?

[ThomasW]

Don't worry about it. The insulation is to keep the wires creating the inductor from contacting each other. A small nick in the coating of an outside wire won't do anything.