Bassmaxx Open Driver Horn

[Branwell]

Was thinking about some new bass bins and come across this company.

http://www.bassmaxx.com/home.html

In the past I tried some dipoles with a pair of 12” XLS drivers per side.
Nicely detailed, but in my room, they couldn’t reach SPL levels or dynamic impact to get really fun.

The Bassmaxx is an open driver horn.
Am wondering if there is any chance it might offer some of what made the dipole good, but with the SPL and punch I’m after.

Any opinions?

Thanks,

Branwell

[PaulC]

Using a BassMax horn at home

The BassMax unit has a good reputation but it is a concert type bass speaker. It is designed and horn loaded to make a very great deal of sound. The cabinet is also a lot bigger than it looks. Spendy except for sound reinforcement.

There is a fellow who posts here quite a bit, but I forget his name. Thomas W will remember it. He works with Tom Danley of ServoDrive fame. He is an expert, I mean an expert, on horn loaded bass systems.

The driver in the BassMax is custom made and has very out of the ordinary Thiele-Small parameters. You won't hear the driver when the speaker is playing even though the back of the driver is exposed to the outside. What comes out of the horn mouth is about 9 dB (a bunch) louder than what is coming off of the back of the driver. The BassMax will not sound anything like a normal boxless bass speaker. It also will lack bass below about 35 cycles per second. It will not play very low compared to the sort of machine you really want. It is designed for loud, really loud. Run one of those full blast inside of any normal house and you could fire a gun and not hear it. The sound escaping through the walls of your house would be so intense that neighbors a block away wouldn't be able to hear their TVs even if they turned them up all the way. The cops would be to see you right quick.

The hot setup for a guy willing to pay a lot less than what a BassMax costs but who wants amazing and very intense results is a big bass reflex or, if you want the very best, a really big infinite baffle. Thomas W is an expert at speaker systems in general and is one of the best at speakers designed for really low powerful bass. I kid you not.

Do it right. A BassMax is a wonderful machine for sound reinforcement because that is what it is designed for. You want a speaker for the home that is designed for the home. Read some of the subwoofer posts. There are systems described here that can do 130 dB peaks at 20 cycles per second. That is tremendously low and loud. If you were in the same room with such a system running full blast using 15 to 30 cycles per second white noise bursts you wouldn't be able to get to the bathroom in time.

[AJINFLA]

In the past I tried some dipoles with a pair of 12” XLS drivers per side. Nicely detailed, but in my room, they couldn’t reach SPL levels or dynamic impact to get really fun.

How many monopoles were you using below 40hz ish?

cheers,

AJ

[Branwell]

Hi PaulC and AJINFLA

Thanks for the input. Just toying with ideas here.

After the Dipoles ( Paul. No monopoles under and I ended up with a hipass on them to limit cone excursion. DEQX crossover ), I put the 4 x 12 XLS drivers in a pair of sealed boxes.
Sounded 95% as good as the dipoles, but with more SPL and extension.

However, when I compared these to a pair of 4CF Reflex boxes with Eminence Kappa Pro 15LF drivers I had sitting around, I came out wanting.

The XLS boxes could go a lot lower ( in room f3 of 25hz vs 45hz ), but ultimately, the Kappa boxes where more tuneful, quite a bit harder hitting, and just more engaging to listen to.

So where I am now is wondering where to go next.

I’d like extension, but it’s not critical to me for most of the music I listen to, namely Reggae, World and various acoustical performances. Basically, anything past 35hz doesn’t get me much.

What is critical however is that the dynamics are presented properly, which is one reason I keep leaning towards Pro drivers.

Currently I’m using BMS compression tweeters w/DDS horns connected to 10” PHL bass mids connected to the 15” bass boxes.

These replaced a long string of MT, MTM, MTMW and MTMWW and even a line array, with various drivers from Scanspeak, Seas, Morel, Peerless etc.

The system sounds great. The scale of live recordings just leaves me speechless… but… the bass is the weak link. The system really needs a little more extension and SPL.

While this might sound like I just like loud systems, its not absolutely the case. Its more about scale and effortless.

Perhaps you’re right. Perhaps a bigger pair of reflex boxes would do it, but dang, monster horns are just so…

Thanks,

Branwell

p.s. I live out in the sticks. No neighbors.

[Dennis H]

Branwell, how high a frequency do you need the bass drivers to play? It sounds like you may be crossing higher than the XLS drivers like and/or not feeding them enough power. Used properly, they should have much more "dynamics" than the Kappa but the Kappa is much more efficient and will handle a higher XO.

[Branwell]

Hi Dennis,

The frequency I cross the bass bins at depends on what I have them hooked up to, but generally between 80hz and 110hz for the XLS based systems and generally between 80hz and 250hz for the Kappa based systems. I’ve tried crossover slopes as light as 12db per oct to as high as 110db per oct ( DEQX ).

Overall find the XLS start sounding off much higher than 120hz and the Kappas much higher than 350hz.

On power, I’m currently using UCD400s on the bass bins and mids but have had a K2 and other high power amps on them recently. Overall, while amps definitely make a difference, the Kappas always sound like they have better control, better detail, and more dynamics for any given amp especially when played loud.

On setup, I use in room measurement and EQ to get the bass contour I like, sometimes using the measurement abilities of the DEQX and sometimes using SoundEasy. In essence, apart from the XLS bins lower F3, once eq’ed with the DEQX, they end up measuring about the same.


Branwell

[PaulC]

I can see that I would enjoy your system myself. Never have heard the PHL 10" mids.

A Kappa Pro 15" LF is a good midbass. A good choice seems to me. In a 4 cubic foot box tuned to about 30-35 hz and high passed at maybe 50 or 65 hz it should sound fabulous.

Don't know what your room is like, but maybe sort of big?

I think you are decribing a lack of the deep bass, the 10-50 hz material. Right now you have fabulous "kick" and "slam" but very little an octave lower. IMHO. If you want some good sounding subwoofer horns you could look at Servodrive Basstech 7s loaded into a good corner. Big bucks. Or build some big horns if you have time. Good old Hornresp!

Me, I would look at a bass reflex with soundsplinter Rl-15s with about 6 cubic feet per driver tuned to 15 hz. A bit EBS tuned.

Machinery of this sort is way less efficient than what you are used to. To match up to your other gear you might start with four drivers and about 2,000 watts. Unless your room is so huge you can image at 65 hz put them all into a tight 2x2 array and might try setting it up first in a good corner.

At these low frequencies you will need, this is not optional, parametric EQ. Room modes get just impossibe otherwise. Setting up the EQ and speaker positioning takes measurement generally. ThomasW knows this stuff like the back of his hand.

Look at this thread:

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=11445&highlight=infinite+baffle

[PaulC]

Hi, Branwell, ThomasW infinite baffle sub, basement view. The unit couples to the listening room upstairs through a hole in the floor.

http://pwp.t-3.cc/ttriff/12-DLP12.jpg

[PaulC]

The cult of the infinitely baffled:

http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/

[Branwell]

Hay PaulC,

That’s it. That’s the solution. HiPass the 15s and run IBs below them. Nice, tidy, and I’ll still have a living room.

Thanks,

Branwell

[Mark Seaton]

Hi Branwell,

I'm pretty familiar with the BASSMAXX designs and have heard them on various occasions. They work well, but I doubt they would be something I would recommend you persuing for what you describe you are after.

If you can accomodate an IB, go for it. Then take maybe a pair of sealed 15" drivers per channel that should get you into the 40-50Hz range with tons of efficiency and the dynamics you seem to crave (me too!). The Kappa 15LF is a great value midbass driver. If you were looking for something as a next step better performing you might try the beefier 15" drivers from B&C or 18Sound in a similar application. Obviously the Kappa kills them on value, but they have their advantages. The other option is to go for multiple drivers instead of big drivers. Something like 4x10" or 4x12" could make for a killer midbass system and with the power distributed, so long as the combined efficiency is comparable to the 15s, you will probably end up with an equal or better result. Another interesting option might be multiple RS 15" HO's in sealed boxes.

Short answer: It sounds like you need some serious headroom, low compression and dynamic capability in the >40Hz range. Design for about 120-125dB capabilities at say 1m with quality components (not necessarily exotic) and you should be sufficiently loafing along to do what you are after. Do watch out for some of the drivers with higher inductance as that works against what you are probably after.

Just my 2c... Back to CEDIA.

[Branwell]

Hay Mark,

The IB thing looks like the way to go for me. I’ve got an unused attic above the listening room. Plenty big enough for an IB configured sub setup.

On the 15’s as mid bass. No doubt there are better than the Kapps Pros and I’ll look into some, but need to do the Sub thing first and also build better cabinets for the PHL / BMS.
I’d not considered B&C drivers. Good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Branwell

[Branwell]

PaulC,

Cult of the InfinitelyBaffled.

That’s describes my state so well. InfinitelyBaffled. :-)

Branwell

[JoshK]

I plan to do one of these...

[Mark Seaton]

Hay Mark,

The IB thing looks like the way to go for me. I’ve got an unused attic above the listening room. Plenty big enough for an IB configured sub setup.

On the 15’s as mid bass. No doubt there are better than the Kapps Pros and I’ll look into some, but need to do the Sub thing first and also build better cabinets for the PHL / BMS.
I’d not considered B&C drivers. Good idea. Thanks for the suggestion.

Branwell

The IB and some Kappa Pro's could really do a great job. If you do look into the likes of B&C, 18 Sound or BMS be sure to remember that what the pro community defines as "subwoofers" are more like what we would call upper bass or midbass in the context of a high power home audio system. Be sure to look at the midbass just like you would design a good subwoofer noting the excursion and power requirements for your intended use. Just look to achieve near execessive output while still within the excursion limits of the driver and you are on a good start. Do also keep an eye on Le being reasonable for the Re, and/or if there are efforts to linearize it in the driver. The Kappa doesn't do this, but with a coil not so massive as some others there isn't as much problem to deal with.

[AJINFLA]

Mark,

any experience with the Peavey Low Riders, 15 or 18?

cheers,

AJ

[Mark Seaton]

Only in seeing some blown/dead ones. I don't recall them having much linear Xmax but instead lots of suspension travel making for a very "crunchy" sound that sometimes served to have DJ's to stop turning things up once they hear the crunch...