The Maggie Projects #2: MMG w/sealed box woofer

[ThomasW]

Link to info HERE

[Dennis H]

Nice, Thomas! How does the sound compare to the Arvo?

[Davey]

There's not much to complain about with the MMG's augmented by woofers. That setup is nicely done and....as you say....provides excellent value and easy setup.

If you're shooting for a 150-200Hz crossover frequency with dipole woofers I'd go with the "H"-baffle configuration vice the "W". The W-frame dipole woofers will have a cavity resonance right in that range....if you construct to the approximate dimensions used by Siegfried.

Cheers,

Davey.

[ThomasW]

Dennis,

Sort of an apples vs oranges comparison. As one might expect the Arvo has more 'punch' with rock. The MMG's seem to have lower distortion and better clarity/definition. Probably a result of the large radiating area.

I really like the sound of this system. It's got me thinking of implimenting something using even larger Maggie panels and dynamic woofers. Sort of the poor-man's version of the Apogee Grand

I'd never seen a fullblown Apogee Grand system until some pics were recently posted.....

If you're shooting for a 150-200Hz crossover frequency with dipole woofers I'd go with the "H"-baffle configuration vice the "W". The W-frame dipole woofers will have a cavity resonance right in that range....if you construct to the approximate dimensions used by Siegfried.

Yep that's the catch-22. I didn't want a woofer module bigger than the "W" frame but understand it's limitations. I'm pondering a single 15" in an "H" fame to get more radiating area and keep the box small...

[dyazdani]

Looks really nice, Thomas. I wish I had time to experiment with things like that...maybe in a few months when things at work settle down some.

Those Apogees are neat!

[Davey]

Those Grands dominate that small room don't they. I don't understand Florian's logic in purchasing them, but oh well.

Davey.

[TacoD]

Wow smart solution! Have you information about those maggie panels?

[Dennis H]

The MMG is an "entry level" Maggie available directly from Magnepan rather than through dealers. It's a 2-way with a narrow tweeter panel and a wider bass/mid panel. $550/pair. I don't know about shipping to Europe.

http://www.magnepan.com/_mmg.php

[ThomasW]

Wow smart solution! Have you information about those maggie panels?

They're the stock MMG model

Those Grands dominate that small room don't they. I don't understand Florian's logic in purchasing them, but oh well.

Really high SPL ribbon/hybrid headphones....... :B

[JRT]

They're the stock MMG model

Really high SPL ribbon/hybrid headphones....... :B

Those MMGs might be very good desktop planar loudspeakers, extreme, but very good. ...like wearing a pair of AKG K 1000 head speakers, only bigger.

The monitor would be in the side null. The MMGs would be nearfield, would require a lot less dipole EQ.

[Davey]

They're the stock MMG model

Really high SPL ribbon/hybrid headphones....... :B

Hehe. Yeah, that's one nice set of headphones.

Actually, I was referring to the larger picture. I don't think a young fella starting out should be saddling himself with that kind of debt for a product which is essentially a "toy." Toys are for those of us in middle age with much more disposable income.
If I were him I'd be using extra money for investing or for a home purchase or for any number of things that are much more important. Even chasing women would be money better spent than those speakers. Slap me...what am I saying!

Anyways, I think you're wrong about the value of the MMG setup with woofers. I think it is probably comparable to designs costing five or ten times as much.

Cheers,

Davey.

[Mazeroth]

Anyways, I think you're wrong about the value of the MMG setup with woofers. I think it is probably comparable to designs costing five or ten times as much.

Cheers,

Davey.

I totally agree. I have a pair of line arrays that I absolutely love but I just had to try the MMGs out before I built my new dipoles (RS225, 27TDFC, dual RS315HF). I picked up a mint pair for $350 shipped and don't regret it one bit. I have them crossed over to my IB sub at 80hz 24db/octave via DCX2496 (it's on the left side, and anything higher I could localize) and I am absolutely stunned at how good they sound. I would put them up against any commercial offering under $2000, except for another Maggie. I'm half tempted to scrap the dipole project and just sit back and enjoy them, but the audio nut in me still wants to build them.

[ThomasW]

After a few days of listening I decided that the tweeter performance wasn't up to par. It was to strident and grainy. So I replaced the stock crossover with the design that originally shipped with the first MMGs.

In 2002 as a cost savings measure Magnepan went from this design ..

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/tazmon/MMG_as_is.gif

to this design...

http://www.integracoustics.com/MUG/MUG/tweaks/tazmon/MMG_22jun99.gif

Returning to the original design and using better components made a significant improvement in performance. The tweeter in particular is much smoother.

Below is my version of the old crossover, with the 2 components of the original crossover seen at the top of the frame.

[jdybnis]

In a small room, would you go with the MMG's or the MMG-W in this config?

[ThomasW]

In any situation the MMG's are significantly better than the MMG-W. Having the larger radiating area and dedicated tweeter section makes a world of difference.

Now if one's only option is the build-in speakers in a TV vs the MMG-W, then go with the MMG-W....

[ThomasW]

Next in the script is stiffening and mass loading the MMG baffle. This is accomplished using 1-1/4" angle iron welded to form a cradle/frame that supports the entire MMG baffle.



More info and pics HERE

BTW anyone live near Euless TX? There a guy there selling a pair of Maggie 2.6/R's. He has the shipping boxes but won't ship them... :roll:

[JonMarsh]

Thomas has been forcing me to listen to these speakers day and night since I got here.

As you might imagine, their forte is material with a lot of content and imaging above 200 Hz - a lot of stuff is really nice, and this certainly represents great bang for the buck, ignoring for the moment that he's backing them with something approaching $10K worth of equipment. Just everyone get out your Michael Hedges albums or your Acoustic Alchemy.

Weak points as configured? Well, the bass is monopole point source below 200 Hz, and considering that, it's blending fairly well with the MMG's, which are something of a diople line source.

BUT, the articulation and pitch definition in the critical midbass between 70 Hz and 200 Hz isn't there the way I like with music having more complex bass guitar parts and drums, or stand up bass, etc. One of the things I really like about relatively full range dipoles is the midbass articulation, and that was a real strength of our first dipole experiment, the Legacy Whisper klones.

My takes is that a dipole bass section below 250 Hz would really allow this sytem to take off- if no one else gets around to it, I might do something after I get my current projects out of the way, with a full custom passive crossover (you all know how passive agressive I am). I have an idea of merging the driver elements in a larger panel, with 2 NS12A-513's on each side, in a baffle configuration similar to the Arvo Part Isiris in construction.

Anyone should feel free to co-opt that idea if they wish, as my spare time is far from copious.

Oh, BTW, the Cream remaster/re-ssue two disk set is quite fun on these speakers, especially the live side.

[Davey]

MMG's with dipole woofers is something I did a few years ago. Active 80Hz generic crossover with dipole EQ added for the woofers. Easy.

I like Thomas' frame reinforcing setup. I may have to revisit these speakers for awhile.

Davey.

[dyazdani]

BTW anyone live near Euless TX? There a guy there selling a pair of Maggie 2.6/R's. He has the shipping boxes but won't ship them... :roll:

That's basically in Dallas...I live about 5 hours from there or so. Wouldn't be bad for meeting half way.

[dyazdani]

Does the guy still have them? It's a 30-day old ad...

[ThomasW]

Danish,

I emailed offering to reimburse him for his time and all expenses if he were to send them UPS. He has yet acknowledge receiving my email.....

I doubt that he's willing to drive anywhere....

Davey,

I'll post better pics later of the frame. Next is to add new tubular steel feet so I can angle the panels slightly forward. And add tubular steel angle braces going from each foot to the tabs you see welded to the top cross brace.

I like the MMG's but this is overkill given their cost. I'm using them as a test bed for mods that I hope to apply to a set of bigger Maggies (or some ESL panel kits :wink: ).

[dyazdani]

Danish,

I emailed offering to reimburse him for his time and all expenses if he were to send them UPS. He has yet acknowledge receiving my email.....

I doubt that he's willing to drive anywhere....

I could probably swing a trip to Shreveport if he wanted to drive there, it wouldn't be much for him, 100% interstate (20).

[chasw98]

How bad do you want them? I have a close friend that lives 30 miles from Euless in Richardson and would pick them up and ship them where ever needed. Let me know.

Chuck

[Paul W]

Ordered two pairs of the MMG-W's earlier this week. Plan is to try them 2 per side...I'm thinking 2-wide will help them on the low end. Each pair will flank a true ribbon, 1st order xo with the ribbon. Full range dipole with a BMS 18N850 woofer.

[ThomasW]

Ordered two pairs of the MMG-W's earlier this week. Plan is to try them 2 per side...I'm thinking 2-wide will help them on the low end. Each pair will flank a true ribbon, 1st order xo with the ribbon. Full range dipole with a BMS 18N850 woofer.

I measured a MMG-W in open air yesterday. Not that good below ~150Hz or so. Jon thinks multiple stacked MMG-W's augmented with additional baffle width maybe a solution



I'm shopping for a mid/midwoofer to mate with a pair of B&G RD-75's. So we might want to start a new thread about using various planars as mid/midwoofers. I have another option that might be better than the MMG-W. JustRealMusic sells a 8"X36" ESL panel. These might be a good choice, since they'll play lower than the MMG-W's. JRM of course sells 48" panels, given your high ceilings you could stack those. I'm limited to <96" so I need to stick with stacked MMG-W or the 36" ESL's

[Paul W]

The MMG-Ws are so narrow it's surprising they hold up as low as they do but, 2x wide, they may be okay. Too inexpensive not to try!

A more acoustically friendly room layout now has my speakers visually separating the view outside from the main seating area so my objective this time around is a somewhat smaller package with at least break-even performance. Increasing height/size is a domestic no-no

I've always been impressed with ESL's and they are definitely somewhere in my future. I wrote JRM a couple years ago but never recieved any response :Z

[ThomasW]

When you get them let's do separate thread for that discussion.

I'm headed back to getting my spare RD75's up and running, and need some kind of planar midwoofer. I tried a line array of 8" Eton's but didn't like the mix of sonic signatures.

If the MMG-W don't workout I'll pound on JRM until there's somekind of reply...:wink:

[clearwaterms]

Thomas,

what ever became of the this project. I am interested in learning more.

[ThomasW]

Paul started a thread where's he's experimenting with MMG's and is home built ribbons.

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=23216

My project was side tracked by a big remodeling project and the holidays. So maybe next month...