Premium DIY designs ?

[knifeinthesink]

I agree that that is an excellent suggestion. The NatP might also be a good choice for a similar approach.

[andyisc00l]

I second. On an unrelated note, I would like to become your friend by Christmas-time, Andy. :W

hahah

annnnnyways - thanks for all the responses very helpful :-)...I've decided its a good idea to start out by just building the front pair first and ditch em if I don't like em...but from the overwhelming responses I've heard on theses speakers I doubt I'll be disappointed -- ok, so theres a few desgins to choose from right? The more expensive one being the RS 3-ways WWMTM which I couldn't find..? Anyways I've heard theres a version using the seas tweeter which is a step up from the daytons tweeter, is that the RS-3way WWMTM..? Anyone have a link to those designs? ..also if theres a design for a center? Is the one I'd use the WMTW Center ? Also I hear there is no center with seas tweeter, will there be one coming out in the next month or two? thanks a bunch

andy

also, this being my first time and all, if I get a pro cabinet maker to do make my floorstanders, do you think I could have "professional" speakers my first time around? This being my first kit has me a little worried. Been awhile since electronics, but judging from what needs to be done for the crossover it looks like I should have no troubles..right? I think theres a good chance I can pull this off? ... also, speaker break-in, I hear after like 100+ hours the speakers sound alot better, is this correct?

oh and I'm guessing these speakers are 8ohm? yes/no? how many watts RMS should I be able to pump in to them (including center)...? I'll probably end up stickin with a rotel-1095 or somethin simliar.

[Jonasz]

Andy, here's the WWMTM design: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=537

And here's the whole thread about them: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11873

I don't think you will be disappointed of any of the designs here.

[andyisc00l]

Andy, here's the WWMTM design: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpo...&postcount=537

And here's the whole thread about them: https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11873

I don't think you will be disappointed of any of the designs here.

I heard that currently the center channel (wmtw) doesn't have any desgins that use the sea tweeter, will they ever do this in the future? Mainly I was thinking it would be strange to have 4 floorstanders with the seas tweeter and the center using the dayton...? thanks a bunch..if anything I'll just stick with the TMWW over the 3-way just to keep things less complicated :-p actually I just found the info on the seas tweeter version...I'm guessing there won't be a version made for the center channel, so should I just stick to dayton instead? would it sound weird with 4 seas and 1 dayton?

andy

sorry for all the questions, but whats max rms for the TMWW floor standers and wmtw center?

[chasw98]

Andy:
I can understand your reticence in putting money into an "unknown" such as building speakers you have never heard. I felt the same way when I first built my sub. I also felt that way when I built my first WWMT. I just wish you lived in South Florida so I could sit you sdown and let you listen to my speaker system. But I digress.

No, the center does not have a design that uses the Seas but it is being worked on by Dennis. Since this is a labor of love and fun, we have to accept that when he finishes the design, then we can use it. Until then, there is only the RS28. I have built the Center with the RS28 and I have already bought a seas for the forthcoming deesign when it is done.

In reality the RS28 center with the Seas mains blends very well, IMHO. I believe the Seas for the center will just be icing on the cake. The design is that good. And worth waiting for.

Power for the Mains and centers? I am using 3 channels at 600 watts each right now and the clip lights never come on. I am pretty sure that I am barely using much of that power to drive the system to reference level, but, boy do I have headroom. It helps! I am not sure anyone knows what max rms is for the system because nobody wants to use their newly constructed system as the guinea pig. I am sure that the designers could probably give a theoretical number if you really desire.

Take a chance. I did. Build one WWMT and see if you like it. With proper planning, you could return some of the parts and have spent a minimal investment for some fun experimentation. Or you go to Best Buy and see what they have to offer :rofl:

Chuck

[dlneubec]

Hi Jim,

I did not use the Peeless Exclusive. I had a custom version done to use Vifa XG-18's that I got a deal on, 4 for $140, as I recall. I sent two to John K. (JPK) and he redesigned the active a passive crossovers to work with these custom drivers instead of the Peerless.

That said, I was purposely looking for a very accurate midrange that was not metal. My last project was the Dr. K. MTM that I built with the standard crossover and then changed over to the RJB 2.5way. To me, for a lot of the recorded music I listen to, I found the metal cones seemed to reveal all the bad things in the recordings and I just could not listen for that long without getting fatigued. So, I went the other way with the Vifa and Seas soft dome (27TDFC) on my NaO Mini's.

After I build a new CC, I'll probably be looking for a project to build that I can use the 4 RS180's, two rs28a's and maybe 2 new RS225's that I have to throw in.

John might be able to give you a comparison of the Vifa with the Peerless, since he has compared them with the ones I sent him.

[andyisc00l]

Andy:
I can understand your reticence in putting money into an "unknown" such as building speakers you have never heard. I felt the same way when I first built my sub. I also felt that way when I built my first WWMT. I just wish you lived in South Florida so I could sit you sdown and let you listen to my speaker system. But I digress.

No, the center does not have a design that uses the Seas but it is being worked on by Dennis. Since this is a labor of love and fun, we have to accept that when he finishes the design, then we can use it. Until then, there is only the RS28. I have built the Center with the RS28 and I have already bought a seas for the forthcoming deesign when it is done.

In reality the RS28 center with the Seas mains blends very well, IMHO. I believe the Seas for the center will just be icing on the cake. The design is that good. And worth waiting for.

Power for the Mains and centers? I am using 3 channels at 600 watts each right now and the clip lights never come on. I am pretty sure that I am barely using much of that power to drive the system to reference level, but, boy do I have headroom. It helps! I am not sure anyone knows what max rms is for the system because nobody wants to use their newly constructed system as the guinea pig. I am sure that the designers could probably give a theoretical number if you really desire.

Take a chance. I did. Build one WWMT and see if you like it. With proper planning, you could return some of the parts and have spent a minimal investment for some fun experimentation. Or you go to Best Buy and see what they have to offer :rofl:

Chuck

hah - I think I'm going to just end up building the tmwws on good faith..hopefully the center will be available in the next few months..can I guess that it will be done by then? And is that 600 watts 8 ohm or 4 ohm... also I hear alot of stuff back and forth about speaker wire..? Does it make a difference? Everyone agrees RCAs make a difference so I have no reason to suspect speaker wire would be any different..? I might buy Monster Cable Z3 right now just because I can find a good deal, like 80% off..I think its a smart investment..? $900 retail I can get it for $150.

[mazurek]

Use the right cable for the job, and your cable will not make a difference. You should probably get a spool of reasonable quality speaker cable, if you are building so many.

Go to newark.com, in my opinion they have the best selection of cable spools. A high quality cable has low capacitance and resistance, required gage is dependent on length of run. Also, too large a gage can be a pain to work with.

High quality rca unbalanced is good too. If you look at newark, mouser, or digikey, you can see what quality connectors and cable cost. Don't spend more than 2-3 times that on any cable.

[Jim Holtz]

hah - I think I'm going to just end up building the tmwws on good faith..hopefully the center will be available in the next few months..can I guess that it will be done by then? And is that 600 watts 8 ohm or 4 ohm... also I hear alot of stuff back and forth about speaker wire..? Does it make a difference? Everyone agrees RCAs make a difference so I have no reason to suspect speaker wire would be any different..? I might buy Monster Cable Z3 right now just because I can find a good deal, like 80% off..I think its a smart investment..? $900 retail I can get it for $150.

Here's what you're looking for:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=235850&postcount=257

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=235961&postcount=260

These two posts list everything you need to build the Seas version of the WWMT RS 3-ways.

Email me if you like and I can send you everything in a zipped file.

Dennis is currently working on the center channel design and should have the crossover done soon.

These speakers are real over achievers and will embarrass many commercial speakers costing several thousand dollars. I'm a converted audiophile that used to be on the treadmill of audio hype. Now I consider myself a DIY audiophile. DIY speakers from proven designers like Dennis, Jon etc. are a tremendous value. Start here and then pursue the rest of your system. You'll be able to upgrade your system a lot before you come close to out classing the speakers.

Good luck!

Jim

[Jim Holtz]

Hi Jim,

I did not use the Peeless Exclusive. I had a custom version done to use Vifa XG-18's that I got a deal on, 4 for $140, as I recall. I sent two to John K. (JPK) and he redesigned the active a passive crossovers to work with these custom drivers instead of the Peerless.

That said, I was purposely looking for a very accurate midrange that was not metal. My last project was the Dr. K. MTM that I built with the standard crossover and then changed over to the RJB 2.5way. To me, for a lot of the recorded music I listen to, I found the metal cones seemed to reveal all the bad things in the recordings and I just could not listen for that long without getting fatigued. So, I went the other way with the Vifa and Seas soft dome (27TDFC) on my NaO Mini's.

After I build a new CC, I'll probably be looking for a project to build that I can use the 4 RS180's, two rs28a's and maybe 2 new RS225's that I have to throw in.

John might be able to give you a comparison of the Vifa with the Peerless, since he has compared them with the ones I sent him.

Hi Dan,

Thanks for the feedback. I'm a detail freak so I love hard coned drivers. I'll follow up with John. I'm still looking for a perfect mid to mate with a ribbon in my next 3-way project.

Thanks!

Jim

[dlneubec]

Jim,

I'm sure you've seen these tests, but in case you or some others haven't, here are comparisons for a lot of 6.5"-7" drivers.

Zaph's 6."5-7" Driver Tests

[knifeinthesink]

Andy,

You might want to consider trying ethernet cable for speaker wire. Im sure, given that you have a question mind, that you will approach this with a grain of skepticism, as you should, but many respected diy'ers swear by these. Look here for some of the best articles on building these.

http://www.tnt-audio.com/clinica/diycables.html

Its cheap, involves a minimal time commitment, fun, looks cool, and allows for interesting variations and experimentation. If you still want to spend money afterwards, you will not have spent more then $50 for all the cat5 cable you'll ever need (assuming you dont buy it at a best buy or some other overpriced place) so going to name brand cables wont be too unpalatable.

If you want to make your DIY cable look really sharp, you can get cool looking mesh sleeving and connectors from parts express like the high end cables use.

Hopefully you will try the cat5 cables, and then if your doubting, try and get prefabs from somewhere you can try them out at home to see if its worth it. If you think its worth the money, then keep them.

There are some fun interconnect projects out there too.

Have fun.

[chasw98]

hah - I think I'm going to just end up building the tmwws on good faith..hopefully the center will be available in the next few months..can I guess that it will be done by then? And is that 600 watts 8 ohm or 4 ohm... also I hear alot of stuff back and forth about speaker wire..? Does it make a difference? Everyone agrees RCAs make a difference so I have no reason to suspect speaker wire would be any different..? I might buy Monster Cable Z3 right now just because I can find a good deal, like 80% off..I think its a smart investment..? $900 retail I can get it for $150.

That is 600 watts into 4 ohms. As far as speaker wire...... I prefer going with Canare 11 gauge star quad available at markertek.com for .63 a foot. I did buy some designer cables on ebay for very inexpensive price a while ago. They look pretty :lol: . Like everyone said, size them properly, use decent connector and listen to the music. Z3 for $150.00 is a good deal.

[ThomasW]

Let's stop the discussion of cables/wire/etc, and get back on topic, otherwise the thread will end up being locked....

This is a rule from the admin that owns the forum and who's business is selling these kinds of things.

[andyisc00l]

That is 600 watts into 4 ohms. As far as speaker wire...... I prefer going with Canare 11 gauge star quad available at markertek.com for .63 a foot. I did buy some designer cables on ebay for very inexpensive price a while ago. They look pretty :lol: . Like everyone said, size them properly, use decent connector and listen to the music. Z3 for $150.00 is a good deal.

oh duh of course 4 ohms, 8 ohms 600 watts would be off the chart power lol..I think I was kinda tired when I posted..

annnyways... I'm gonna have a professional make my floor standers..how is this gonna work, you can't touch the crossover once its all sealed up can you? Hrm...I don't know the guy I found him on craigslist :-p, he said hes been doin it for 30 years so he should be ok..hows this gonna work lol

[Dennis H]

you can't touch the crossover once its all sealed up can you?

Build the crossover on 3 boards, one each for the woofer, mid and tweeter sections, small enough to fit through a woofer hole and mount to the enclosure. It's very important that you be able to remove the XO to fix any wiring mistakes or bad components.

[chasw98]

If you look at my version, I put a rabbetted plate in the back of the speaker that allows me to get inside and pull the XO's out to change or work on them.

[JonP]

Build the crossover on 3 boards, one each for the woofer, mid and tweeter sections, small enough to fit through a woofer hole and mount to the enclosure. It's very important that you be able to remove the XO to fix any wiring mistakes or bad components.

Sure... Or make a access panel in the back, just big enough to access/remove the crossover. Make sure it's as small as it needs to be, is stiff enough and well sealed so it won't compromise the rest of the box. After all, you've designing a custom enclosure, right?

[chasw98]

Let's stop the discussion of cables/wire/etc, and get back on topic, otherwise the thread will end up being locked....

This is a rule from the admin that owns the forum and who's business is selling these kinds of things.

Yes, sir ops:

[andyisc00l]

Can you upgrade any of the components in the crossover? Or will it be fine? I've heard alot about people saying crossovers are one of the most important parts of the system.

[jonathanb3478]

If you look at my version, I put a rabbetted plate in the back of the speaker that allows me to get inside and pull the XO's out to change or work on them.

I plan to do this, as well. Except I am going to make two sets of plates. One set will have 4" precision ports tuned to ~27.3Hz, the other set will not.

WINISD shows that a 3.06 cuft cabinet could work fairly well both ways. I will see.

[knifeinthesink]

in case your still wanting to see scan-speak/seas excel designs, have a look at this site. I was going to mention it but can never remember the URL.

The Accepella is one of my favorite DIY designs. The stuff on this site is very high on style too.

http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/Diy_Loudspeaker_Projects.htm

[cjd]

Can you upgrade any of the components in the crossover? Or will it be fine? I've heard alot about people saying crossovers are one of the most important parts of the system.

Crossover *design* absolutely.

But yes, you can opt to use premium caps - particularly on the tweeter, this can make some su btle but worthwhile changes, (or so some say). no need for full value premium caps, but at least half the value should be a premium cap for best results.

Inductors, use of quality air core inductors is key, as long as the impedance is in the right range. There's a discussion on foil inductors here somewhere that shows they're not anything special for audio.

C

[dCraig]

Anyone have a link that explains what cap bypassing is and what it does and when/how to do it? I keep reading comments on this but haven't figured it out yet. Also, what room measurement hardware and software are people recommending these days?

[cjd]

Bypassing has negligible results. Generally, it is as simple as including a very small value premium cap in parallel with a less costly cap. Say, 0.22uF or 0.47uF next to a 20uF or something.

Preferred is to use at least half the value in premium cap. So, for that 20uF, a 10uF premium film/foil and a 10uF metallized polypro. Or a 12uF premium and an 8uF...

C

[David G]

You can check out some of my Scanspeak efforts here.

https://www.gattiweb.com

I have absolutely no complaints about any of their drivers. Personally I think the cost of the drivers pales into insignificance when you consider the amount of time, cost & effort that goes into the crossover and enclosure.

[dCraig]

Why not just use a premium cap for the full value? That would seem to cost about the same as a premium half the value plus a regular cap half the value. Or does the cost performance ration of the premium/regula combination heavily outweight the premium for the full value?

[cjd]

Why not just use a premium cap for the full value?

Go for it. It just costs a good bit more. Nowhere near the cost of a half-n-half. Maybe your "normal" caps are premium caps. Or your premium caps are normal?

C

[andyisc00l]

cool...sounds good..the cabinet guys outa town so we're gonna get things figured out when he comes back..I think I'm gonna start out with 2 TMWWs just to make sure I like what I hear..how much should I expect to pay for this type of thing? alot?

[andyisc00l]

Anyone know a general price I should have to pay for the cabinets so I don't get ripped off? lol

[ThomasW]

No way to answer this based on all the possible variations involved with the constuction materials, finish materials etc.,.....

A huge difference between MDF boxes painted matte black and 13 layer BB ply construction with a hardwood veneer....

[joecarrow]

Just have the builder walk you through an estimate. If you want, you can post a breakdown of it here.

Once you know the design, you should be able to find the cost of materials based on how much wood/etc is required. Keep in mind that you might need to buy extra materials; for example you might not use a whole can of finish or a whole box of screws.

Next, an estimate of the hours spent building the things and what the labor rate is. Finally, anything like shipping or handling. This should get you in the ballpark, and I think that most people who charge a fair rate wouldn't mind breaking it down to some extent, and anyone who would rip you off would have a harder time inflating their rates with that kind of breakdown.

As an example, I had a friend build a pair of large floorstanding cabinets for me, and I paid him $180 for the pair. This is probably cheaper than is reasonable, but my friend was in the process of teaching himself woodworking and furniture design at the time. My speakers had butcher-block birch fronts and birch ply for the rest. They really weren't braced adequately, but we didn't know much about that back then.

[andyisc00l]

no shipping charges local job..:-) any type of wood that produces a quality finish that you guys would recommend?

I'm getting pumped..I have some primus 360s and after some breakin in and rca upgrades sounds amazing...I'm guessing there will only be an improvment

[andyisc00l]

werd I was looking at some amps and I was thinking about getting a rotel 1095 - i'm pretty sure these speakers go by 4 ohms right..? So is 330 watts @ 4 ohms gonna be plenty? I'm guessing it'll be plenty..

[ThomasW]

Yes 4 ohm speakers and yes you'll have plenty of power with that amp.

[knifeinthesink]

Hopefully Im not about to break any more forum rules but heres an amp suggestion.

If you like the idea of the DIY stuff, you could build a gainclone amp. Only nine components, and they sound terrific. In fact, some people think they are on par with some of the best amps out there. At the worst, they are very good for very little money and quite easy to build. You can buy circuit boards for them to make life easier and even get them in kits.

Mine cost me about $50 because I have a source of cheap transformers, which are probably the most expensive component.

Soldering is pretty easy if you dont know how, and schematics are really pretty basic.

Now that your saving yourself a few thousand dollars compared to where you started before DIY, you can go and buy a few hundred CDs and still have more money then you would have. Isn't DIY grand?

[Jonasz]

Andy, you can always take a look at John Krutkes new Scan-Speak/Vifa design here: http://www.zaphaudio.com/ZD5.html I know John is a distorsion hunter and a perfectionist so I'm pretty sure this is a really good design. If everything goes according to plans I will try it later on myself. :P

It's only a little twoway but you kan always build a couple of RSS12" subs and use them as stands. :B

[TacoD]

Gainclone doesn't drive 4 ohm loads very loud. I would build a Hypex UCD 400 / UCD 700 (400 and 700 watt in 4ohm load).

[cjd]

Um. How loud do you need to go?

My "gainclones" drive 4ohm past 100dB.

You need one based on the LM3886 for <6ohm stable...

I've long since left plain GC's behind though. Standard stuff is soft on the bass end. Superb through midrange and up.

Not so keen on the UCD modules myself.

YMMV. Everyone has their preference.

[knifeinthesink]

What are you using, Chris? A non-standard GC or something completely different?

When you say they are soft in the bass end, what are you comparing to?

[DS-21]

no shipping charges local job..:-) any type of wood that produces a quality finish that you guys would recommend?

That depends on a few things. What is the furniture that's going to be around them made of? Do you want to match it or contrast against it.

If I were building mains I planned to live with for a while, I would use void free Baltic Birch ply, with with the end ply visible and highly polished. But I'm into a more modernist aesthetic and speakers like that probably wouldn't look great in a room dominated by more rococo furniture.

Also, be prepared for some sticker shock on the cabs. A bespoke set of really good cabinets for a pair of tower speakers could easily run $2000 or more from a cabinet-maker. Quality artisanal handwork is pricey.

[cjd]

What are you using, Chris? A non-standard GC or something completely different?

When you say they are soft in the bass end, what are you comparing to?

There's a thread out there somewhere... In progress is an X-GC, theoretically should be capable of ~200W>4ohm. But I run my MTM's on a 3875 chip, standard chipamp.com fare, nothin fancy. That chip doesn't like my big towers - bass is unquestionably bloated, and they can't handle the impedance. Comparing to a Nakamichi TA2A in that case. If I ever remember to put the order in, I'll have 3886's to mess with have PCB's, mostly assembled, but need to swap a few component values.

C

[joecarrow]

The "gainclone" style amps, for those who don't know, are a copy of an amp called the Gaincard, an minimalist 25 watt amp from 47labs. The gainclone came about when people realized that inside this $2,500 amplifier was a $5 chip and some passive components. All told, a good gainclone can be built for under $100. Most of the cost is in the power supply, specifically the transformer.

This has a lot of relevance to the original "premium DIY" topic of this thread. You absolutely don't always get more just because you paid more.

Getting even more back on topic, I believe Andy said this system would be used for home theater. The gainclones are supposed to sound quite nice with sensitive speakers (the gainclones aren't driven terribly hard), and there are implementations of the chipamp available that will do higher power and lower impedances- but I think that's a pretty big project to tackle. You need some sort of receiver to decode your HT content unless your DVD player has a bunch of analog outputs (mine doesn't), so I'd recommend shopping for a good HT receiver.

I recently got the Panasonic SA-XR55, and I don't think I recommend it for low impedance speakers. Switching between it and a Hafler DH-500, I believe I hear an improvement in the attack of kick drums with the Hafler. The Hafler has a much lower output impedance than the Panasonic, and my Modula MTs are supposed to have about 6 ohms impedance in the frequency range I'm talking about. By my best estimate, the damping factor is between 15 and 20 for the Panasonic in this range, and much higher for the Hafler. I bring this up because whenever high value home theater receivers are brought up, this one gets mentioned. I'm keeping this one because other than a slight loss of impact in the kick drums, it sounds great and is much friendlier to my girlfriend.

So I say- can anyone recommend a good conventional HT receiver to go with these Dayton 3-ways, to give Andy more "bang for the buck" than his local dealers might offer?

[DS-21]

Joe, a kickdrum strike is a pretty violent sonic event. The difference you hear in kickdrums between the XR55 and the DH-500 is probably more than anything else a result of the vastly greater headroom of the Hafler amp. I believe the DH-500 is rated to put out 250W per channel into 8ohm, and I would imagine that they put out within a few tenths of a dBA than that, probably erring on the side of underrating than overrating. By contrast, a German magazine tested the XR55 and found it capable of around 75wpc into 8ohms, with surprisingly (IMO) good performance into 6, 4, and even 2 ohm loads for something so small, light, and cheap.

As a practical matter, whatever their ratings few all-in-one packages are going to give meaningfully more headroom than the ~75wpc our XR55's put out in the real world. I don't have any dynamic headroom issues worth caring about in my room, though the room is of medium size and mains are 91+ dB/w/m (no BSC needed because their limited directivity allows on-wall placement). Depending on how efficient the Dayton towers are - I've not followed them; they incorporate neither large concentric driver nor a waveguide-loaded tweeter, so they're not that interesting to me - the choice is probably between receiver at all or beefier separate amps.

[andyisc00l]

hrm.. gainclone amp.. very interesting. I'll look in to that..

anyone in minnesota have the dayton DIYs? Would love to hear em.

also any links for the gainclone amp?

I can solder, if there is something that is a little bit more complex(not terribly complex) I wouldn't mind trying it out if its gonna be higher quality. Any suggestions? And sorry how many watts @ 4 ohms did you say? Hopefully can make one with more then 300 doubtfully though? Was thinking about a rotel rmb-1095, will definatly outperform the rotel right?
Or maybe just use higher quality parts!?

Again thanks of all the help, appreciate it you guys are awesome.