Behringer, Carvin, or Crown XTi amp?

[DennisP]

Hi everybody,

I'm zoned in on the enclosure size for the 2X15" sub I'll be building, and I'm looking at amp options. The drivers will be SS-RPL15 D2, so I'm looking at either the Behringer EP1500, the Carvin DCM2500, or the Crown XTi2000. Any amp gurus have any opinions on these choices? Crown is obviously the most expensive option, with Carvin a little cheaper, and Behringer being by far the most bang for the buck. What do I gain (if anything) by going with the pricier amp (the Crown in particular)?

edit- here are links to the Carvin and Crown amps-

Carvin

Crown

-Dennis

[joetama]

Well the Behringer is pretty much a QSC amp, so you can never really go wrong with QSC. The crown is ok, I think both of them would be better than the Carvin amp. That's my $0.02....

[peterS]

the crowns would be my choice, aesthetics playing a role in my decision

most will say behringer deq-2496 plus behringer amp gets you more for a little less

[Tommythecat]

The Crown Xti's have internal dsp. Crossovers and 4 band parametric eq are included. You have to consider that when going against the behringer amp+eq combo.

[ThomasW]

I fail to see the benefit of the Crown's built-in devices for our needs. In a tri or quad amped pro-sound systems, 4 bands of EQ per amp is probably okay. But it's only enough to be frustrating when trying to EQ a room.

As for the crossover most don't need it, since they have bass mgt in their receiver or pre-pro. If someone needs an active XO they're available for $90.

As with any integrated device if any single component in the device fails the entire system is lost to the repair shop. So my recommendation is keep these things separate...

[wackii]

Well the Behringer is pretty much a QSC amp, so you can never really go wrong with QSC

Agree... I have a QSC amp, can't complain. It built like a tank.

Al,

[dyazdani]

I have a Behringer and it works great (driving a single RL-p15 ATM). You might think about stepping up to the EP2500, not too much money for a bit more power.

[DennisP]

Is there anything inherently wrong with the Carvin for powering a sub? SteveC seemed to like them, just thought it was a slightly more powerful option than the Behringer, and the fan noise is lower as well. I'm going to nix out Crown, since 4 band EQ won't cut it for taming a sub. Has anyone used the Velodyne SMS-1 (as the pricey fancy option for sub EQ)?

edit- I agree, the Behringer EP2500 probably makes more sense for my appl.

-Dennis

[oxcartdriver]

I looked at the crown XTI and crown customer service talked me out of it. Fan noise and they didn't think the EQ would be much help for my bass EQ.

I went with a different crown model used.

[SteveCallas]

SteveC seemed to like them, just thought it was a slightly more powerful option than the Behringer, and the fan noise is lower as well

The Behringer EP series amps will give you more power per dollar than any of the Carvin amps, but the Carvin amps will be quieter. Where will your amp be located in relation to your seating position?

[DennisP]

The main seating will be about 16'+ away from the amp at the front of the room. Are the Behringer's as loud as an Xbox 360? I have one on the rack at the front of the room and it's quite the pain in the ass when it spins up and the fan comes on. :P

-Dennis

[SteveCallas]

The EP2500 fan noise has been measured at 72-74db at 1" from the front faceplate. I'm not sure how loud the xbox 360 is, but I have heard many people state that it's loud. If you want to avoid adding anymore noise, I'd go with the Carvin (53db at 1") and also do an easy resistor mod, which will reduce that even further. At 16' away, it would definitely be dead silent.

At the same time though, 16' away might be enough to reduce the EP fan noise to a much more tolerable level. Hard to say.

[Scott Simonian]

Steve. My friend has a 360. I can't compare it to the 2500, as I dont have one yet. But I'd say that the fan noise would be comparable if not worse.

His first one was louder than the one he has now. (long story, he had to trade in his 360 for a replacement 360.)

[peterS]

arnt the new crowns supose to be very quiet

[dyazdani]

Are the Behringer's as loud as an Xbox 360?

The Behringer is easily louder than a 360 (I have both). Yes, the XBox is loud, but not quite to the EP2500 level.

That said, I don't notice either in the middle of a game or movie.

[DennisP]

Thanks!

It's true I do not notice the 360 in the middle of gaming, but in the middle of a movie, I would definitely notice it if something that loud (or louder) were up at the front of the room. Remember, there are parts of films that don't involve 120+db of bass in them to drown everything else out. :T

That being said, how much quieter does the Behringer get with the mod, and how difficult is it to perform the fan mod?

-Dennis

[dyazdani]

That being said, how much quieter does the Behringer get with the mod, and how difficult is it to perform the fan mod?

-Dennis

The mod looks pretty simple, but I haven't done it myself so I'm not sure how much quieter it is.

[Dennis H]

The noise is a non-issue. You can mod the Behringer to be silent for ten bucks and a few minutes of your time. Buy a quiet Panaflo fan from Digikey and, if you want, you can quiet it down even more with a resistor to slow the fan. It's all documented on this forum.

[DennisP]

Sounds good, I'll do some searches and take it under consideration also. The bang for the buck factor is nice with the Behringer amps, so they're at the top of my list based on all of the positive experience people have with them.

-Dennis

[Nichol1997]

I fail to see the benefit of the Crown's built-in devices for our needs. In a tri or quad amped pro-sound systems, 4 bands of EQ per amp is probably okay. But it's only enough to be frustrating when trying to EQ a room.

As for the crossover most don't need it, since they have bass mgt in their receiver or pre-pro. If someone needs an active XO they're available for $90.

As with any integrated device if any single component in the device fails the entire system is lost to the repair shop. So my recommendation is keep these things separate...

Where can you get a $90 active crossover?

[ThomasW]

Where can you get a $90 active crossover?

Behringer CX2310

[SteveCallas]

The noise is a non-issue. You can mod the Behringer to be silent for ten bucks and a few minutes of your time. Buy a quiet Panaflo fan from Digikey and, if you want, you can quiet it down even more with a resistor to slow the fan. It's all documented on this forum

I think the term "silent" is far overused in regards to fan noise. Several at AVS have claimed to mod their Crown's to be silent even with their ear pressed against the amp, yet when it comes down to it, they are still measuring ~61db of fan noise at 1". That is by no means silent, not by a long shot. Even with a fan swap and resistor mod on the EPs, you are going to have a hard time getting below 60db at 1". And if you don't do a fan swap, it's going to stay pretty loud - see this post by Chuck.

Is there any way you can station the EP in another room and just run wire to the subs? If not, and the Xbox 360 noise bugs you, you'll want to look into other options.

[oxcartdriver]

Is there any way you can station the EP in another room and just run wire to the subs? If not, and the Xbox 360 noise bugs you, you'll want to look into other options.

Hence the reason I forked out some additional bucks for the fanless pro amp. I'm sure you can find another fanless pro amp, and I always pay more than everybody so you'll easily find one cheaper than I did.

[DennisP]

Well, for fanless, there is the Crown K2, but that's pretty spanktastic in terms of price ($1500 last I checked).

I don't have an adjacent room to put the amp unfortunately, the house plan is pretty open. The garage is on the other side of the equipment/ screen wall, so I could drill some holes and put the amp in the garage, but that would be less than ideal...

-Dennis

[---k---]

PE also now sells their 1000W plate amp in a rack-mount case for around $380. This comes with a phase control and a built in single-band eq and is fanless. It doesn't look too bad price/performance wise when compared to the K1 and K2. But, I would probably still mod a EP2500. I wasn't terribly bothered by the fan in mine. Yes, it was LOUD (not as loud as a Nady though), but once hte movie started it really faded away. Simple fan swap fixed that.

[thylantyr]

For reference.

QSC RMX2450 vs. QSC PLX3402 internal pics.

http://home.pacbell.net/lordpk/qsc/

EP2500 will look essentially the same as RMX2450
but with a smaller transformer, so the EP2500 will have
less power, if noticable it will be at 2 ohm/ch operation
[or 4 ohm bridge mode].

But, if you found two EP2500's for a lower price than
RMX, one EP per woofer, that could be sweet.

PLX cost ~$750 used and what I really like about them
is the optimized wind tunnel cooling [shroud on heatsink],
this allows more robust operation at lower impedance without thermal shutdown. These are amps are great for full range sound quality.

Another variable. Ampifier power ratings may be based
on a stiff 120VAC input, a voltage drop can cause reduced
power. I have some power measurement issues with
my PLX vs. advertised power, but I haven't redone my
tests to verify.

If you look at Binks proamp test, 117VAC vs. sagging
96VAC, some proamps suffer a power loss. ie,

Crown K2; from 724w to 446w @20hz

Half of the amps on that list don't even have power
numbers as the amps probably shutdown. ie, the PLX
will shutoff if AC input is under 100VAC.

I measured a 1.4kw power loss on my PLX with a 10VAC
drop. But I can't confirm it's 3.4kw rating as I don't
have a stiff 120VAC unless I jump the main breaker box - Rofl

[SteveCallas]

Dennis, do you have a budget? I originally shyed away a bit from the Carvin because I wanted you to get the best bang for your buck, but taking fan noise into consideration, it might be the best bet. Two HD900s in bridged mono for ~$600 shipped should do the trick.

[JonW]

Hence the reason I forked out some additional bucks for the fanless pro amp. I'm sure you can find another fanless pro amp, and I always pay more than everybody so you'll easily find one cheaper than I did.

Which fanless pro amp did you get? I wanted to avoid a fan and about the only decent thing I could find was a Crown K1. I got it used. It was a little under $600, I think. It's running my sub. The other channel will run my (still being built) center channel.

[DennisP]

Steve: Hmm...yes there is always a budget. :B I'd like not to spend more than $6-700 on amps, so perhaps I'll look at that option as well.

-Dennis

[DennisP]

So, after looking at them, that would be 2 amps, each generating 900W into 4ohms per driver for 1800W total. Sounds sweet, and I like the idea since more channels equals more flexibility for any re-use in the future. If I ever set an IB up (currently not allowed by the missus), 4 channels from these 2 babies would work very nicely.

-Dennis

[steve nn]

Something you might consider is where you place the amp in your room. I decided to tuck it away and give it a buffer between it and seating. This reduced the sound of the fan by half and I now don't notice it even in the quiet scenes.. can you find Waldo?

[DennisP]

I found Waldo. Sneaky, very sneaky!

[oxcartdriver]

Which fanless pro amp did you get? I wanted to avoid a fan and about the only decent thing I could find was a Crown K1..

I looked and couldn't find the Crown K1. I have a K2 which I bought used for about 675. A new K2 was very expense, and the K2 was comparible to the hi power plate amps. I chose a RL-15p dual 4ohm driver so I have one channel driving each coil.

If I run the crown hard into 3-4ohm load full range speakers then the crown K2 will become quite warm. For typical bass levels heat is not a problem.

My second choice was the EP2500, but everyone has thier own needs and preferences.

[brent_s]

What about a pair of Buttkicker amps? No fans, rated at 1100 watts into 4 ohms / 2100 into 2 (Secrets measured 960 into 4 @ 30hz continuous), RCA inputs, $240 each + shipping from TigerDirect.

[ThomasW]

What about a pair of Buttkicker amps?

A couple people have posted that they work fine for subs. That's the best price I've seen.

[DennisP]

The Buttkickers are switching amps, this is going to sound (ha ha) strange, but is there any advantage to a true A/AB amp design compared to these newer digital amps in terms of sound quality, dynamics, etc. Does any of this matter for a subwoofer? Am I opening up a huge can of worms here?? :B

-Dennis

[ThomasW]

Low buck switching amps are fine for subs.

[DennisP]

Ok, I may be willing to try them- fanless is a good thing, and the price is hard to beat.

-Dennis

[peterS]

what about this guy?

http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshowdetl.cfm?&Partnumber=300-810&raid=25&rak=daytonracksubamp&wt.sv1

personaly i may try the butt kicker

[peterS]

The Buttkickers are switching amps, this is going to sound (ha ha) strange, but is there any advantage to a true A/AB amp design compared to these newer digital amps in terms of sound quality, dynamics, etc. Does any of this matter for a subwoofer? Am I opening up a huge can of worms here?? :B

-Dennis

some state yes some no

little known fact, class d sends more current to the voice coil, but i dont think anyone has to worry about that in a home stereo application

but class d is much more useful in sub applications due to there lower current draws, and the fact that some of these class ab may never see a true 120V as a result

[SteveCallas]

If you do get the Buttkickers, I'll be very interested in hearing what you think of them.....but I guess you wouldn't really have anything to compare them with

[WillyD]

If you do get the Buttkickers, I'll be very interested in hearing what you think of them.....but I guess you wouldn't really have anything to compare them with

Aye. I am considering one of them as well. Looking at the FR graphs on Secrets...the only thing that slightly bothers me is the somewhat gradual roll off that begins in the mid 20s. It doesn't look severe though...maybe -3dB at 10Hz?

But the price, proper RCA input (correct sensitivity for receivers), fanless cooling, and the ~960W @ 4ohms, definitely make it look attractive. Might be a good fit for a single TC-2000 LLT, eh?

[ThomasW]

Jack Gilvey's been using one for quite some time. He's pleased with how it performs.

[DennisP]

Yeah, it would be nice to have something to compare to, like the Behringer as a baseline. I just ordered the drivers (yay!), so the amp is coming up soon here as well.

-Dennis

[DennisP]

Ok, this is going to sound like a dumb question, but how do I connect a pro amp (carvin, behringer, etc.) with no RCA connectors to my pre/pro to get the "sub out" signal to the amp?

Sorry if this question has been asked and answered a million times already. :W

-Dennis