A new king of DIY drivers perhaps?

[ssabripo]

:E :E

gaddam, that's a big mofo!!!!!! :lol:

http://www.tcsounds.com/5400.htm

The all new TC4LM motor uses a 525 ounce magnet assembly coupled with a low carbon steel t-yoke and tall gap-plate. The motor was designed to accommodate the all new dual 2Ω bifilar wound aluminum linear voice coil on a titanium former. Titanium proves the most ideal material to use for this application as it remains one of the strongest materials that that does not conduct eddy currents. It’s also highly resistant to resonance which causes many distortion anomalies of both aluminum and kapton formers. The new magnet assembly stretches 3" high and reaches 10" wide and allows for up to 4" peak to peak excurion. With this newest and most advanced voice coil technology, the LMS-5400 super driver literally breaks new rules and blurs the line between a quality driver and a quantity driver. It would take two drivers its size without linear coils to match the SPL of this single driver under ~10% THD.

15" model shown
Until the birth of this driver, no high excursion SQL Driver has ever had the full luxury of having the efficiency of traditional drivers. The LMS-5400 boots a massive Bl product and pulls efficiency numbers that surpass most non-linear high excursion systems. By design the LMS-5400 does it all. No compromises, no tradeoffs. Just pure, accurate and powerful bass that compares to literally nothing else. The LMS-5400 will be available in 12", 15" and 18" models, and the driver is so massive that we will be shipping these in individual wooden crates :B . The LMS-5400 and it's technology can only be purchased through TC Sounds online store.

*Shipping this fall.

I wish they would post preliminary T/S parameters to start doing some modelling with these bad boys......since the Avalanche 18"s are no longer available, and there isn't much in terms of 18" drivers, this guy would make one hell of a subwoofer if it pans out! :banana:

[Scott Simonian]

*Homer Simpson drool*

Aaaaggggghhhhhhgghgllllllll....

Waiting on some T/S specs....

*twiddling thumbs*

[peterS]

prabably be around $1k

[ssabripo]

prabably be around $1k

I tend to agree...if the LMS-4000 is any indication ($598 for the 15"), I would guestimate the 18" 5400 to be around $900 or so. 8O

*Homer Simpson drool*

Aaaaggggghhhhhhgghgllllllll....

Waiting on some T/S specs....

*twiddling thumbs*

nothing available yet, but it will beat the 4000 T/S params....here is the 4000 ones:

Qts = 0.447 Total Q
Qes = 0.501 Electrical Q
Qms = 4.163 Mechanical Q
Fs = 15.629 Hertz, Free Air Resonance
Res = 2.8 Ohms, DC resistance
Ls = 1.048m H, series inductance
Lp = 3.561m H, lossy series inductance
Rp = 2.390 Ohms, loss across Lp
Dia = 250m meters, effective
(%shift) 28.6 %, resonance with mass
Vas = 156.2 litres, air volume equivalent
mms = 224.6 grams, effective mass
cms = 461.6u m/N, compliance
bl = 11.1 T*m, motor strength
n0 = 114.4m %, max efficiency
SplSens = 82.58 dBSPL max @1W absorbed
(Added mass) 219 grams

[Nichol1997]

The 18" LMS5400 are going to be around $1300 each. I read this in their forums somewhere. This is nowhere near the price of the Avalanches.

[ssabripo]

The 18" LMS5400 are going to be around $1300 each. I read this in their forums somewhere. This is nowhere near the price of the Avalanches.

really?! 8O

if true, I think I'm gonna pass....dayum!

you got a link?

[SteveCallas]

Very interesting read:

http://forum.carstereos.org/f-official-adire-audio-forum-48/t-difference-between-xbl-and-new-coil-technologies-56398

These LMS drivers are huge because they have to be, which is a main contributor to the high costs. It will be interesting to see if the 5400 can overcome the sensitivity issues of the 4000, and what the Le of the 4000 is.

[Amphiprion]

Don't forget Deon is selling his uber-woofer in the Pawn Shop.

[Remotia]

Very interesting read:

http://forum.carstereos.org/f-official-adire-audio-forum-48/t-difference-between-xbl-and-new-coil-technologies-56398

These LMS drivers are huge because they have to be, which is a main contributor to the high costs. It will be interesting to see if the 5400 can overcome the sensitivity issues of the 4000, and what the Le of the 4000 is.

The LMS-4000's Le is Under 1 mH. Le is generally a little bit less than Ls, and Ls is about 1.04 so Le is surly less than 1. inductance and flux modulation is not a problem for this driver, there is a tone of copper in that motor.

BTW, the T/S are posted guys, you need to read up on our forums more often!

Here are the T/S for the 15" LMS-5400 proto.

Qts = 0.256 Total Q
Qes = 0.265 Electrical Q
Qms = 7.260 Mechanical Q
Fs = 18.758 Hertz, Free Air Resonance
Res = 4 Ohms, DC resistance
Ls = 3.276m H, series inductance
Lp = 5.831m H, lossy series inductance
Rp = 4.467 Ohms, loss across Lp
Dia = 330m meters, effective
(%shift) 20.1 %, resonance with mass
Vas = 193.1 litres, air volume equivalent
mms = 383 grams, effective mass
cms = 187.9u m/N, compliance
bl = 26.09 T*m, motor strength
n0 = 461.9m %, max efficiency
SplSens = 88.64 dBSPL max @1W absorbed

[Paul H]

Personally I'd be interested in some distortion measurements on a driver that travels 4" ...

[SteveCallas]

I was bringing up a similar point yesterday in another forum, but apparently this motor technology isn't supposed to suffer from any Bl nonlinearities within 92mm peak to peak travel. Wiggins doesn't deny that claim, so I guess there is truth to it. The implementation on the 4000 seems strange though, as it is built to go unusually low, and sensitivity suffers.

[Scott Simonian]

The implementation on the 4000 seems strange though, as it is built to go unusually low, and sensitivity suffers.

Ah yes but to be flat (anechoic) to 10hz is soooo fun!

[Dennis H]

The 18" LMS5400 are going to be around $1300 each.

Wow..... for that you could do a nice little IB with nine Dayton RS 15". I know which I'd prefer -- I've got your loud, clean, deep bass right here, pal.

[Scott Simonian]

One woofer to rule them all...

[SteveCallas]

Ah yes but to be flat (anechoic) to 10hz is soooo fun!

Actually, you don't want to be flat anechoically to 10hz, as then you'd have a gigantic house curve. The thing is that for a $600 driver with completely linear 30mm xmax, I'd personally prefer a bit more sensitivity. Being able to use it in a design that would be relatively flat in room to 8hz or possibly lower is excellent, but if you're being restricted by output, it's no fun. You could always go with multiples I guess......I can't help but imagine what the possibilities could have been with a few parameters slightly tweaked though.

[Scott Simonian]

Yeah, just get 8 or 16 of them.

That would be one hell of a house curve, huh?

[Amphiprion]

The thing is that for a $600 driver with completely linear 30mm xmax, I'd personally prefer a bit more sensitivity.

Problem is, they're basically taking windings away from the middle of the voice coil. T/S parameters are based on small signal assumptions, so excursion is nil. Standard overhung drivers have higher peak Bl at x=0, but fall off with excursion, so while their T/S paramers and sensitivity look better due to higher Bl at x=0 they won't be near as linear as you push the woofer. Also, the LMT tech uses a HUGE coil - they've got to be using a massive faraday, probably in the gap, to get Le as low as it is (I was very surprised when I saw the low Le spec for that series). Copper in gap = wider effective gap = lower B field in gap = lower Bl = lower sensitivity. Forunately, ceramic 5 is pretty cheap

[SteveCallas]

I see there are plans for a Neo 4100 with 38mm xmax - that might do the trick. At the same time though, it might very well have an $800 price tag.

[Feyz]

Also, the LMT tech uses a HUGE coil - they've got to be using a massive faraday, probably in the gap, to get Le as low as it is (I was very surprised when I saw the low Le spec for that series). Copper in gap = wider effective gap = lower B field in gap = lower Bl = lower sensitivity. Forunately, ceramic 5 is pretty cheap

Well, add lots of copper to the gap, you lowered Le. But then you lowered sensitivity, which means you need more current flowing to provide the SPL you need than the case you didn't have the copper in there.

The magnetic field generated by the coil is proportional to current times its inductance, which this modulates the B of the motor causing one sort of distortion. So it looks to me it is an optimization game when using copper inside the gap: lower inductance requires more current, high inductance requires less current to achieve same SPL, and modulation of B is proportional to current times inductance. Of course it requires more analysis then this, but simply putting in a lot of copper to reduce Le which at the same time reducing efficiency may not always be the best thing to do.

There is another aspect of this, but it may not be too relevant for subwoofers. Other than the B modulation caused by the field of the coil, the inductance of the coil is modulated by the current because the magnetic permeability of the motor structure is modulated, which determines the inductance of the coil, in other words inductance modulation by current distortion. Here again it is an optimization as far as I can see. You can lower coil inductance by adding copper to the gap, but if that causes lower efficiency, you will need to run more current, which may offset the benefit gained by the lowered inductance.

I think the reason for using such big magnets on those subwoofers is to gain back the efficiency so that, not too much current will be required, which could reduce the distortion benefits gained by the reduced inductance.

Just my two cents...

[Scott Simonian]

So Im gonna take a guess that no one here will purchase one of these?

[SteveCallas]

Lol :B

[Jack Gilvey]

Such drivers are really sexy, but I'd only bother if I needed a small box with all my Vd in a single driver.

[joecarrow]

Yeah, like if your significant other says, "Fine, but you only get to build ONE speaker, and it has to look like an end table. And I'm putting a doily on it."

That idea of eight Dayton RS 15"s in an IB sounds superb. I want that setup, as soon as I get a house.

[Scott Simonian]

Such drivers are really sexy, but I'd only bother if I needed a small box with all my Vd in a single driver.

Or if I had all the money in the world. Cause I want a baker's dozen...

:P

[peterS]

Such drivers are really sexy, but I'd only bother if I needed a small box with all my Vd in a single driver.

ie car audio

[Amphiprion]

Or somebody with some spousal factor coming into play

[peterS]

Or somebody with some spousal factor coming into play

no thats bose :E

[Nichol1997]

really?! 8O

if true, I think I'm gonna pass....dayum!

you got a link?

Yea, it is a lot of money. But, I called Resonant Engineering and got a price on their new XXX 15" and 18" and it is even more than the TC Sounds. I don't remember the price of them though.

Here is the link with the price of the LMS5400 drivers.
http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=198&hl=$1300

I think Kyle is one of the owners.

[ssabripo]

Yea, it is a lot of money. But, I called Resonant Engineering and got a price on their new XXX 15" and 18" and it is even more than the TC Sounds. I don't remember the price of them though.

Here is the link with the price of the LMS5400 drivers.
http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=198&hl=$1300

I think Kyle is one of the owners.

well, here is what Kyle said in that post dated 2 weeks ago:

4000v2
10" $600
12" $700
15" $800

The 5400 is
12” $800
15” $1000
18” $1300

now, in the actual website, here are the prices of the LMS4000:
10" $379
12" $465
15" $598

so, extrapolating, looks like the 18" 5400 will actually be more around $970

still pretty pricey though

[Remotia]

2006 RE XXX

18" $2300
15" $1700
12" $1300


It’s the only thing remotely in the ball park as the 5400 and its not even close in terms of sensitivity, and I speculate THD as well, but that has to be proven.

This not a “bang for you buck DIY subwoofer” if you will. If you want that, there are plenty to go around. More of same more of the same...

[Amphiprion]

I just want the product line and pricing standardized. These are going to kick ass and do way more than I need them to either way, let's just get it stable.

[peterS]

Yea, it is a lot of money. But, I called Resonant Engineering and got a price on their new XXX 15" and 18" and it is even more than the TC Sounds. I don't remember the price of them though.

Here is the link with the price of the LMS5400 drivers.
http://www.tcsounds.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=198&hl=$1300

I think Kyle is one of the owners.

compairing retail to factory direct prices