Cost of designed XO

[kgveteran]

What would the cost be for a custom designed XO. This would be for a commecially available speaker, so the design would be a copy right.

The cabinet would be built and shipped with drivers. Just wondering ?

[ThomasW]

As I recall Madisound charges $50 to do a LEAP design.

[kgveteran]

Are the designs here done by that program.Don't these guys do it with an Emulator, if thats the correct definition.

[ThomasW]

LEAP takes whatever driver data is available (factory or user supplied) then makes the crossover. Problem is that it's not fine tuned by human ears like the designs are in our 'stickey' threads.

Another option is pay Dennis Murphy, Rick Craig, or whoever to do an optimized design after you send them the drivers. That will be more than $50 but it will give you the best results.

I seriously doubt you'd be able to patent or copyright any crossover design, unless something VERY special was done in the topology.

[dawaro]

LEAP is just another brand of software like LspCad or Soundeasy. It is much more expensive so it is used less in the DIY area.

There are other options that are a better choice than Madisound. Their service is good for the price but I think they simply do a simulation based on the box measurements you supply not with actual measurements of your enclosure. Dennis Murphy would be an option, he works on commercial designs all the time. Another option would be Rick Craig at Selah Audio. I know someone who spoke with him about a 3-way design and IIRC it was going to cost $175 plus the price of the drivers and xovers. Pricing may be different for a commercial design.

Edit: Looks like Thomas can type faster than I can!!

[noah katz]

"it was going to cost $175 plus the price of the drivers and xovers."

That doesn't sound like much. How many hours can he spend on it for that little money?

[kgveteran]

"it was going to cost $175 plus the price of the drivers and xovers."

That doesn't sound like much. How many hours can he spend on it for that little money?

My thought would be to design the cabinet, build it, install the drivers and ship it.

[Jim Holtz]

"it was going to cost $175 plus the price of the drivers and xovers."

That doesn't sound like much. How many hours can he spend on it for that little money?

Noah,

Actually Rick spends as many hours as it takes to get the crossover right. He is very inexpensive for the care he puts into his custom designs. Be aware though, Rick's designs are just like commercial software etc., you buy the rights to use the design but he retains ownership of it. It is not a free design to be published. This is Rick's business and sole income.

I've had Rick do a number of designs for me including the line arrays pictured in my avatar. His work is exceptional.

Jim

[kgveteran]

Noah,

Actually Rick spends as many hours as it takes to get the crossover right. He is very inexpensive for the care he puts into his custom designs. Be aware though, Rick's designs are just like commercial software etc., you buy the rights to use the design but he retains ownership of it. It is not a free design to be published. This is Rick's business and sole income.

I've had Rick do a number of designs for me including the line arrays pictured in my avatar. His work is exceptional.

Jim

Could you expand on this abit. The ownership and rights, thanx.

[Jim Holtz]

Could you expand on this abit. The ownership and rights, thanx.

It's the same as the operating system on the PC you're using. It's intellectual property and for your personal use only. You purchase the right to use it, not the right to offer it for sale or offer it for free to other individuals. Rick's business is selling speakers/kits so you'd be a competitor if you offered his design for sale.

AFIK, Dennis, has always refused to take any money for his work but it's still his design and any commercial offerings he's been involved in have been with his knowledge up front.

Both do crossover design with a passion and I would highly recommend their designs but, it's still their work.

That's my understanding of the way they work. I'm sure they would both be happy to fill in the details if you ask them.


Jim

[ThomasW]

I'm sure one could workout an agreement with a designer so you end up owning the rights to the design. This is done all the time in other industries.

The real question is why bother? Anyone that buys the speaker has immediate access to the design. And unless it's something that's actually patentable (highly unlikely) they can copy it, if they're so inclined.

Some companies (Sonus Farber for example) seal their crossovers in potting compound. The stock line is that this is done to reduce the effects of vibration or some other nonsense. They're really trying to stop people from knowing the crossover. The reality is of course that anyone with the proper test equipment and access to the crossver can reverse engineer it in very short order.

[Amphiprion]

My brother is a Harvard law grad and IP attorney for ~5 years now. I just emailed him a question about this and will post back.

[seattle_ice]

I am pretty sure he will tell you something like this:

If you sell a speaker, and someone copies it exactly and sells theirs, you could sue them for copyright infringement, spending untold hours and dollars going to court over a period of years.

If they copy it exactly for their own use, how would you even know?

If they copy it, but change a few items, and then sell it, you might have a case and might not.

Going to court over any of this stuff i always a crap shoot. You can never be sure what will happen.

[Amphiprion]

Of course you can be sure what will happen. I'm positive my older brother will tell me that it simply depends on who has deeper pockets

[seattle_ice]

Of course you can be sure what will happen. I'm positive my older brother will tell me that it simply depends on who has deeper pockets

Sigh.... unfortunately, many times that is the case.

I only brought this up because we deal with this on a corporate basis with software designs. Our contracts are 5% dealing with the actual sales/subscriptions to the banks/customers we deal with, and 95% legalese simply there to cover our rear ends.

[Mark Seaton]

What would the cost be for a custom designed XO. This would be for a commecially available speaker, so the design would be a copy right.

The cabinet would be built and shipped with drivers. Just wondering ?

If you're talking about hiring someone to design a crossover for a kit or finished speaker to sell, this is something that gets worked out ahead of time. Most often the two parties will determine if a design fee/rate and/or a royalty/license fee is appropriate for the particular product and its market.

An example of where you would want to sort this out ahead of time might be with the designs posted here in Mission Accomplished. If someone wanted to sell a speaker and decided to just reproduce one of the collaborative designs here that Jon, Thomas, cjd, Dennis, etc. had worked on, I think they might catch some heat, and the contributors may have some legal copyright grounds to stand on.

[BobEllis]

At the risk of flogging a dead horse, Mark has it right. You work it out before hand. If you don't, the contract designer is likely to be the loser in a legal battle. My J.D. isn't from Harvard, but I know a bit about IP law.

If you are a startup (potentially competing with me) I'd make it a high fixed price if you wanted to own the rights. If you were an established company with a good chance of selling a few I might ask less up front and take a royalty.

The company I work for sells a lot of custom designs, based on a standard core technology. When a customer asks to buy the design rights to their custom products, we ask around $20 million (the products sell for a few hundred dollars each.)

As alluded to earlier, while our major contributors may have a legal right to keep people from using their designs commercially, it will be expensive to enforce.

Legalisms aside, if you are trying to make money on someone else's design work you should pay them something for it because it is the right thing to do. Expect to pay more for a commercial design than a one shot personal use design.

[ThomasW]

When a customer asks to buy the design rights to their custom products, we ask around $20 million (the products sell for a few hundred dollars each.)

Yo dude, spare change? :wink:

[Amphiprion]

I talked to my brother very briefly on the phone the other night, and he said copyright wasn't really what you want. I was quite unclear on some of the stuff he said, so if any of this is wrong it's me and not him He said most of this stuff was covered in his intro copyright/trademark/patent class so any lawyer should at least have seen this stuff in school.

If you draw out the schematic on a sheet of paper, then you have copyright protection on that (which I guess means you can keep people from distributing the design on the internet or some such). But as far as keeping people from copying the network itself in another speaker, or the concept involved for its design, or doing very similar derived things, copyright isn't really what you want. He said if you are doing something novel (like Joseph Audio with the infinite slope thing) then you are best protected by a patent, but it's got to be novel and getting a utility patent will cost you $10k or more. Since the vast majority of what we do is not novel, that is not applicable. So what you are best protected by is a simple contract between the designer and the user as far as use/disclosure/derivatives/etc. As far as someone else stealing the design by taking apart your speaker I was much less clear on what he said your protection was in that case but it didn't sound very good.

Again, my bro is an expert in patent law, so if any of this is wrong, it's me and not him The phone call was like 3 minutes long. Also, none of this is legal advice, and my brother is not your attorney Gotta say that b/c his firm prevents him from doing any outside work to prevent conflicts of interest with firm clients.

[cjd]

If someone reverse engineers somethign you've done and sells it, there *are* protections of sorts, but it can be tricky unless you have particularly good and careful documentation.

If you're contracting a design for your own use, that's one thing (though you would not be able to share that design!). Much like building the "open source" stuff published here by various folks. If you plan to sell it, you contract for design and licensing OR for exclusive rights to the resulting design. There *is* some grey area in such designs, in that you may simply charge for construction/assembly - but in this case credit to the designer is pretty much a requirement. Certainly is the right thing to do.

Most of this has been covered.

I always try to remember to make a point of mentioning that the stuff I put out there is for personal use only! I'm also open to folks producing them, but hey. Lotta work goes into some of the stuff. But, I'm always erring on the side of too much credit to others, I think.

C

[kgveteran]

This all came about after my cabinet guy and myself built our centers and mains.He said that we could build a design and sell them..... .

I then gave him a thousand reasons why we should not.Most of it was that I don't feel i have enough time to do people the justice of being available as a full time gig.We have gone back and forth about this.

I give manufacturers a lot of credit.These people ( the smaller companies) really give up alot to build,ship,return,insure,ship some more,return damaged product,ship a little more,take phone calls,maybe sell here and there........alot more than meets the eye..... .

My next idea after i beat the whole thing in the ground, was to build a 5.1 or 7.1 system and sell it.Maybe on Audiogon or Ebay..more of an "as is" deal. I'm still milling it over.

So, this is where this all came from. My first idea was a center channel using a ...........I better keep it to myself for now

[Rick Craig]

What would the cost be for a custom designed XO. This would be for a commecially available speaker, so the design would be a copy right.

The cabinet would be built and shipped with drivers. Just wondering ?

It depends on what is involved and who you have contract to do the work. Some designers charge a flat rate while others may also ask for a royalty per sale.

[Rick Craig]

"it was going to cost $175 plus the price of the drivers and xovers."

That doesn't sound like much. How many hours can he spend on it for that little money?

Too many hours :lol:

It all depends on how complex the design is and if I have to build a test cabinet (I have several test cabinets that I can interchange baffles on). Most people are on a limited budget and cannot afford (or are willing) to pay a high design fee. I offset some of the labor cost by providing the drivers and crossover parts. In some cases I can also offer the design to other customers which helps cover the original time invested in the design.

[cjd]

Time investment can be insane.

Be fair to those that do crossover design work and offer the results for free (or for cheap) or expect such things to disappear.

Karma sucks. Don't make it hate you.

C