Floorstanding Speaker Project (US$1800) Help Needed!

[Froggeh]

Hi Everyone,

I've just moved to Sydney and left my beloved speakers in the UK, taking only a Musical Fidelity X-150 Amp and associated CD player across. Having eventually agreed with my wife a budget for speakers of AUD$2500, I'm now working frantically to source the right parts. I have all the tools (or if i don't it's an excuse to buy them, and can get the cabinets built and french polished free of charge, so I'm after real wood. Also, I'm not sure whether to go for ribbon, ring radiator or traditional dome tweeters.

Paul H's M8n MTM's seem about what I'm aiming for, but look considerably out of my price range? Any help gratefully appreciated!

thanks in advance,

John

[ThomasW]

We have no idea what raw drivers are available in Oz. So find some sources and see what they stock. If memory serves picking are slim and the good drivers are very expensive.

[cjd]

The big 3-way towers Brian and I built are under budget, though the Daytons are tough/impossible to get there. I mention it only as a point of reference.

Peerless has some great options in mid-woofs. Seas, tweets. Are those available at comperable prices for you? (thinking 27tdfc or 27tbfc, not millenium).

I assume the Hi-Vi stuff is available.

C

[Brian Bunge]

Sounds like a guy could make a good living as a supplier/dealer for Dayton products in Australia.

I'm afraid to look, but does anyone have any idea what it would cost to ship Dayton products to Oz?

[Jonasz]

Maybe John K's 3-way could be of interest? Uses parts and drivers available in Oz I think? The drawback is low sensitivity (82 dB) and maybe the box isn't the most beautiful, but it should be a really good design.

http://www.musicanddesign.com/diy_2005-3_way.html

[MarkR]

Thomas is quite right, the pickings are pretty slim in OZ and not cheap. I had a pretty good look around before deciding to build the MTM's.

The shipping for the Parts Express content of my speakers was US $194.00 This included 4 x RS180's and 2 x Precision Ports plus various other items such as Caps, Binding posts, Jasper jig etc. It was a pretty big and heavy box and it only took a week to get here, money well spent.


FWIW, if you process an order on the Parts Express website without giving any credit card details it will still quote shipping costs so you know what you are in for.

My suggestion would be a pair of Jon's MTM's with one or two Bass Bins/Subs using the Peerless XLS12 (which you can get in OZ), you should be able to bring that in on budget and I can pretty much guarantee it'll sound much better than anything sourced locally for the same money. But then I would say that cause that's what I'm doing.

[Martyn]

You could try this: https://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/in....27991&pid=447.

At US$1,059 you'll have plenty left to cover shipping and cabinets too. They sound good too.

[Froggeh]

I can get Vifa, Scan-Speak and Peerless, Hiquphon, Dynaudio and Sountex stuff pretty easily, and am happy to order anything from the states. Having looked at http://www.theloudspeakerkit.com/sho...&ProcessType=1 originally, I was a bit concerned that I could do better with a bigger budget & wasn't too sure of the company reputation.

The Hi-Vi tweeters aren't available locally - i'd be happy to get them shipped from the states but i'm not that familiar with the brand. Having seen the many recommendations for Seas stuff I wondered about the Thor kit (http://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/ind....27991&pid=485) and now thinking the Eton kit. I'm after a very transparent sound, with good soundstaging being my soft spot. Anything too 'warm' tends to put me off, although I'm not after anything too clinical.

Thanks for the advice so far - i'm leaning toward the Thor or CJD/Brian's speaker design just because I like the MTM designs a lot. Unfortunately as we're in a fairly small place the Subwoofers will have to wait, but they are on the long term list.

[Martyn]

With those drivers available, you could build Dennis Murphy's MBOW1 3-way (see murphyblaster.com). The only disadvantage of this design is that the woofer is in a separate box below the MT box, because Dennis won't compromise the SQ by putting them all in the same cabinet. Unfortunately this can cause WAF problems for some.

[Brian Bunge]

If you can swing the shipping costs then I think the big RS 3-ways would be an excellent way to go. I've heard the Thors on a couple of occasions, although not in my room with my electronics, and thought they sounded very cold and analytical. The RS towers are definitely not warm sounding; I'd call them neutral. They definitely are the best speakers I've had in my system thus far and the dynamics make them fun to crank!

[MarkR]

You mention you are in a "fairly small place" IIRC Chris has stated in the past his 3-Ways sound best in when given plenty of space, also the X-150 will certainly drive these speakers but it may be less than ideal. I certainly don't wan't to dissuade you from building these ( in fact if you do I'll probably invite myself to your place for a listen when I'm over later in the year 8) ) just a couple of points to consider.

Also don't let the low cost of the Modular MTM's put you off, they perform well out of their price range. If you push the boat out on cap upgrades, binding posts etc and factor in exchange rates and shipping they will put a good dent in your budget.

[David G]

I'm in Melbourne and source most parts (Scanspeak, Peerless etc) from Wes Components. I also order the more difficult to obtain parts directly from Madisound or Parts Express in the USA with little price penalty.
Drop me a line if you need more specifics. Cheers.
David

https://www.gattiweb.com

[Brian Bunge]

I'm in Melbourne...www.gattiweb.com

That's funny! I live about 10 minutes south of Melbourne. Melbourne, FL that is!

[Froggeh]

So possibly in a 15'x12' room (we're hoping to move to somewhere with a listening room in the fullness of time) and 10-11' ceilings, Chris' design will be just too big?

My wife's actually a bit of a bass junkie and plays piano to a high standard, so don't worry about the WAF on the speakers! Ideally they won't be more than 15" wide, depth and height don't matter much.

These speakers won't be used at all for movies, they'll always be part of a standard two-channel setup, and will be used for everything from Massive Attack to Bach to Herbie Hancock.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far - there's a partsexpress basket being lined up now. Would you split between PE & Madisound or get all from PE?

[Froggeh]

aah, and thanks for the info David! Funny that I used to live 20 minutes away from Melbourne, UK!

[cjd]

The biggest problem with the big towers is bass bloat in a smaller room, and that has a LOT to do with wall proximity. And if you're doing organ or possibly even full orchestra, crossing to a good sub (~50Hz-ish crossover would work well, and an IB sub would be ideal if you can pull it off) will fill out the really low bass.

If you sit facing a 12' wall, you could possibly get ~2M between them, sit ~3M away. The height will help a little, and some wall treatment and particularly bass trapping should help also (and it sounds like those options may be within reach for you).

Much as I loathe the option (tweaks box tuning and system Q), going with smaller gauge (higher impedance) inductors on the woofers may tame a little of the bass issue - it's something I am wanting to experiment with.

C

[Froggeh]

Thanks Chris,

Our couch gets delivered this week, and the WAF balance suggests that if I'm really lucky, her red leather armchair and footstool become my listening chair, and the speakers sit 2ft out from the walls with about 2.2m between them, and me 3.3m away on the long side. If I don't play my hand right (and even then), it's possible the speakers will end up sitting 20cm from the corner either side of a chines chest (1.8m long). If this turns out to be the case I'll be . I'll happily experiment with smaller guage inductors if it means they become liveable with.

I can't pull off an IB sub at the moment (or possibly a sub at all), due to the current existence of a landlord, however said W is happy to consider one in theory - no-one seems to be regularly here in the apartment block of 5 we're in. What did the overall impedance of the speakers turn out to be?

[ralphs99]

Hi John,

Have a look at http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/

They've got a heap of kits based around German Visaton drivers. 2-ways, 3-ways, MTM's, you name it.

Even a kit based around a midrange Smith horn. Very cool!

http://www.soundlabsgroup.com.au/pc/V-5957/Kits-3-Way/Sound

Cheers,
Ralph

[cjd]

Impedance dips a tad low - under 3ohm for a bit. I am hoping to see smoother performance with a more suitable amp in mine, but that project is on hold while my hand heals. I may be able to get back to it now, but am not sure how well that will work in reality. Not an easy speaker to drive though, I think. Not only do you want an amp that can drive lower impedance loads, you need one that drives evenly across the impedance range.

Your locations are workable (similar to what I have, except mine are not in a rectangular room). If you've seen Brians measurements in-room, you can see some of the fun that is bass response, and the difficulty in measuring accurately in that realm as well. But it's also not entirely false, and shows well how bass can become a bit excessive.

There are a lot of superb designs out there that I think may suit your space better. For that matter, the Dayton RS WMTW Center & TMWW Mains may be a better option, though it still uses the Dayton components. May be a toss-up whether they'll cost less than some of the similarly excellent (but different) Peerless options.

If you can find someone in your neck of the woods to do good measurements, we could assemble something more specifically for you too.

C

[Froggeh]

right, slightly stuffed budget as i've had to get a new hi-fi amp, it's now closer to $900 (AUS$1200/GBP£500)

bah. Dayton RS 3 ways *will* wait for me . in the meantime, has anyone heard of vitaton drivers, and what are they like? I'm hoping to get some bits bought tomorrow or monday! New router & jig will be on their way tomorrow, cabinet building friend is staying from tomorrow, and I'm on my way. I've still got my eyes on a 3-way design, but now not sure what to do. Australian order parts only, so peerless, vifa etc (or i'll be getting them from david g with a major rush on! ).

I'd love to find someone to do good in room measurements, now have enough stuff in the room that it shouldn't sound too bright, inc. a decent and deep rug.

[David G]

You're in luck Froggeh. I can do your speaker measurements if you're willing to cart your speakers to Glen Waverley. Drop me a line at my website if you're interested.
Regards
David

https://www.gattiweb.com

[Froggeh]

Right, I think i'm settled (if it sounds like a good idea to everyone else?). I'd be delighted to pay one of the members here whatever you'd like to do box/crossover design (don't have a clue what's reasonable). I'm competent at buying bits and at soldering, not so great at designing speakers.

I'm also aware that the speakers may have problems with the size of the room, but planning on the following drivers as we may well be moving to a larger listening room in the next few months.

Fountek Ribbon Tweeter AUD $198
Vifa P13WH-00-08 130 mm Mid-Woofer AUD$103.79
Vifa M25WO-49-08 250 mm Woofer AUD$143.94. (speakerbits prices)
+ crossover components and internal cabling

My questions are:

1) Would these components work well together?
2) Are they the right balance in terms of woofer size in a 3-way design?
3) Maximum box width is 16", box depth isn't a problem, or height
4) Could someone provide crossover design & component list (paid of course)?
5) Could someone provide box design and a rough cutting sheet (paid of course)?
6) David, can you source these components cheaper?

This post is especially directed to chris, brian and david but if anyone else can help, please post and let me know! And if any of the above want to do 4 or 5, then if it's less than USD$100, just post to say you're doing it and let me know when! or feel free to negotiate in PM! I know these would need bix boxes, but i'm happier having bigger speakers earlier and moving to a larger room, than rebuilding speakers in a few months because they don't perform as well in the room.

thanks for everyone's help and advice - it is gratefully appreciated.

John