Attempting to achieve "Ridicubass"

[DarrenE]

Hello All,

I am looking at the feasibility of building my own Subs. I currently own an SVS 25-31 PC+ and while I like the sub it is not enough for my 4000+ cubic foot space. During the research process of upgrading I started looking at DIY as an option. I have the following requirements.

1. Must fill 4000+ cubic feet space to "reference" levels.
2. Must reach flat to at least 20 Hz and be strong to 16 Hz for movies and occasional pipe organ music.
3. Driver and port (if ported) must be concealed from the eyes and hands of my 15 month old. (Either down firing or have a grill cover)
4. If ported, I must keep the port noise to nothing or as close to it as is reasonably possible. Classical music with pipe organ rarely has enough masking sound to cover port noise.
5. Amp must be dead silent. I have absolutely no tolerance for fan noise. (I have tried to get past this but have not been successful)
6. Maximum size if a box is 20" W x 30" D x 24" T (height must take into account spikes or legs.)
7. Maximum size if a tube is about 40" tall and probably wouldn't want the diameter to be more than 18 "to 20"
8. Budget is $1300. This is assuming I can sell my current sub for $500. This includes any tools I may need.
9. I would prefer dual subs as I am horribly sensitive to localizing subs. (Not quite sure if this is psychological or not but either way I would like duals.)
10. Must look reasonably good because they will be going in my living room. A cherry veneer would be awesome but I don't know if the budget and skill level would allow.
11. I have to get it right because my wife has assured me that there will be no upgrades until the next house. 8O

I have looked at many of the designs here on the forum and am not completely sold on any one particular design. I own a Velodyne SMS-1 so I have the EQ taken care of. On a woodworking level of experience I would probably rate myself a 2 out of 10. ops:

I own a cordless drill, a powered hammer drill, a power sander, a Dremel rotary saw that I couldn't cut a straight line with if my life depended on it, and all the normal screw drivers and drill bits. I figure I would need to buy at the least a circular saw, a plunge router, and clamps for when gluing. I would also need to buy or build an inexpensive work bench to work on. Any work bench would need to be temporary because I don't have room in the garage for it permanently. My neighbor down the street is retired and builds furniture so I am thinking about talking with him to see if he could help me build it. I have no idea if he will be willing to do this so I am planning on him not helping and if he will assist that will be great.

Any assistance you could provide would be greatly appreciated. Am I nuts for trying this considering my budget, skill level, and not so short list of requirements? Thanks in advance for your help.

Here is a pic of where the sub would go. The second would go on the other side of the TV stand.

[DarrenE]

Actually there was one sub in the showcase thread that really caught my attention but I don't see any way that I could do something like that with my current woodworking skill level. I love the idea that it is a "stealth" sub and just think it is beautiful as a piece of furniture as well.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showpost.php?p=234463&postcount=17

[SteveCallas]

Dual sealed SS 15s like ---k--- and steve nm, and a Crown K1 or two PE 500 watt plate amps.

[Dennis H]

IB is your friend. Minimal woodworking, hidden from view, massive SPL. Put the money into drivers rather than boxes.

https://web.archive.org/web/20061110033241/http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/

[ThomasW]

Your wants for the sub/subs, amp, and tools are unrealistic for the budget, unless you build an IB.

For example Steve's dual RL-p 15" drivers are $500+ shipping, a dead silent Crown K2 is $1500+ shipping.

[steve nn]

I need to go to work here, but with my rig I highly suggest the Mono BASSIS. I don't think this setup meets your criteria? As far as bass is concerned it surly would though.

[Hdale85]

yes 1300 is a little on the cheap side even for a diy sub especially with your requests

[BobEllis]

How about EBay? Although currently fashionable, Pro drivers can make very good subwoofers. You can probably find a suitable power amp for a decent price as well.

I have a pair of JBL2245Hs (one bought on EBay a year ago for $260 delivered, the other bought new in 1983) in 8 cubic foot enclosures a little bigger than your stated max. Currently mine are ported and equalized, tuned to give in room response flat to 20 Hz or so. I have no port noise issues.

Sealed in the 6.6 cubic feet you allow, you should be able to get 100 dB+ to below 20 Hz without exceeding xmax on 250W or so. out of one. There's plenty of suspension travel left over, so if you can tolerate a little more distortion...

The 2241 and 2242 are current drivers that should work, the 2242 being a better choice. (Do a search on JBL 22*) You may have to wait for them to come up, but all three models are available fairly regularly.

On the topic of subwoofer localization, I have found that it is usually a result of the sub crossover having a too shallow rolloff or too high frequency. At 60 Hz 2nd order, I cannot locate the sub, but bring it up to 80 Hz and I can. I cannot locate a sub crossed over 4th order at 90 Hz. You might try a higher order rolloff - some HT receivers only give you second order low pass filters at 80 Hz.

My room is roughly the same volume as yours. I went with two subs for room mode issues, per the Harman white paper - it really smoothed out my response. In my current configuration I have not heard a more realistic rendition of the cannons on the Telarc 1812 overture CD. Not as loud as real cannons, but has the same sonic character

If you want to build your own XO and Linkwitz Transform, I am running a PCB group buy over at diyaudio.

[DarrenE]

Your wants for the sub/subs, amp, and tools are unrealistic for the budget, unless you build an IB.

For example Steve's dual RL-p 15" drivers are $500+ shipping, a dead silent Crown K2 is $1500+ shipping.

I was afraid of this.

IB is for the next house.

[DarrenE]

If you want to build your own XO and Linkwitz Transform, I am running a PCB group buy over at diyaudio.

I have a Pioneer 1015 whose choice of crossover jumps from 80 down to 50. 80 is too high and 50 is too low. :x

Would a DIY crossover be able to handle 5 channels? My SMS-1 has more crossover choices but that is only an option if I am running a two channel system.

[---k---]

Buying tools and building the boxes would probably equal the cost of hiring a cabneit maker to build simple boxes for you that you could finish with veneer.

Steve and I both have our RL-P15 in boxes about the size you gave, and I think it would give you nearly the output you are looking for. Ben has a ported version that is probably just a hair bigger than what you gave. Two drivers is $550 shipped. A pro-amp that wouldn't be silent would run you $250 - $400, depending on the quality you want. That leaves you a couple hundred to get someone to build your boxes and acheives all of your goals, but the quiet goal. There are ways to quiet the amp down, but you void your warrenty, blah blah blah

Fanless, would either be the very expensive Crown K1 or K2, or maybe something like the 600W ADA plate amp, but you would then need two of these at $550 each. There are also the 500w PE plate amps, which are $300/ea. I recently heard bad things about the Bash plate amps.

[BobEllis]

I have a Pioneer 1015 whose choice of crossover jumps from 80 down to 50. 80 is too high and 50 is too low. :x

Would a DIY crossover be able to handle 5 channels? My SMS-1 has more crossover choices but that is only an option if I am running a two channel system.

The way I handle it in my HT is to tell the processor that there is no sub and route the LFE to the Large mains, leaving the rest on small. this sends all bass that would be in the center and surrounds to the main output. Then I use my homebrew crossover to route the signals appropriately.

If your receiver has external inputs for the amps (my Yamaha DSP-A1 has a jumper between the preamp and amp sections on the back panel.) you can simply send the main signal back into the receiver. If not you'll either have to perform surgery on the receiver or use an external amp to do it this way.

Another option if you don't have external amp inputs is to set the mains to large and set the subwoofer Low pass to the Mains' F(6) For a Linkwitz-Reilly transfer function. If the mains are ported use a 4th order low pass filter on the sub. If sealed use a 2nd order filter. With two subs close to the mains, you shouldn't be able to localize the subs. It is not ideal because the mains are driven full range, but it gets you in the game until you can afford a second amp for the mains.

Sending you off in a different direction, you might consider upgrading the mains to something that would allow you to use the 50 Hz crossover setting. With $800 to spend you could build a pair of Modula MTMs and have some left over for a decent router and the bits you'd need. Put them in a MLTL as described in the NatalieP thread and you might think you don't really need a sub at all.

Have a look in the woodworking guru thread for some ideas on how to use your router to get straight edges. Temporary bench? I use a couple of cheap plastic sawhorses and a piece of MDF.

Edit: You should also consider building just one new sub now, and another later as budget permits. You won't go to jail for using both your Velodyne and a homebrew sub. :W

[Dotay]

I see that you live in Fort Wayne, what part? I'm on the southwest side currently and I'd be willing to help you out with the construction if you're interested. I've got a nice plunge router and a jasper jig that we could use to make the driver cut outs. I could also potentially borrow my dad's table saw for a couple days to make the cuts if you're interested. Or if you decide to go the sonotube route you could just have Lowes or Menards cut up the MDF sheets since we'd route them out to size anyway. I built (well...it's not all of the way finished yet...) a sonosub using 18" sonotube from a local supplier. They will cut the tube to length for you as well so you can save some money there. If you went with a sonotube based sub it will save you quite a bit of money on the construction side of things and it will also be a lot easier to build.

Let me know if you're interested.

--Justin

[SteveCallas]

A used Crown K1 can be had for $400-$500.

[Bent]

Fanless, would either be the very expensive Crown K1 or K2, or maybe something like the 600W ADA plate amp, but you would then need two of these at $550 each.

An ADA 1200, powering two dual 4 ohm drivers v/c's wired in series for an individual driver impedance of 8 ohms - parallelled with a second RL-p wired the same way will allow 600 watts per driver and the total impedance would still be 4 ohms - this would same you the cost of a second amp.

[kgveteran]

I doubt my quad-Tumults would hit those numbers.I wish sealed subs could hit in all rooms.

The biggest advantage to sealed is the extended frequency response and lack of tuning problems.Sealed can go as low as 5hz if you have enough Xmax and amplifier power.

IB would serve you well.I would never suggest DIY to break even.When I think of DIY I always want to push the envelope.Try to produce at least 150% of what you need, thats what DIY is all about.

Some people use as many as twelve drivers in their IB, I think that adds up to 150% of what is needed .

[DarrenE]

I see that you live in Fort Wayne, what part? I'm on the southwest side currently and I'd be willing to help you out with the construction if you're interested. I've got a nice plunge router and a jasper jig that we could use to make the driver cut outs. I could also potentially borrow my dad's table saw for a couple days to make the cuts if you're interested. Or if you decide to go the sonotube route you could just have Lowes or Menards cut up the MDF sheets since we'd route them out to size anyway. I built (well...it's not all of the way finished yet...) a sonosub using 18" sonotube from a local supplier. They will cut the tube to length for you as well so you can save some money there. If you went with a sonotube based sub it will save you quite a bit of money on the construction side of things and it will also be a lot easier to build.

Let me know if you're interested.

--Justin

I'm not going to say no to some help. :P If nothing else it would be very helpful to talk and see if this is something I think I can do. I currently have a tube sub and if I don't DIY I will be buying a second tube so I am not against a sonosub. It just can't be 6 feet tall. :E

[DarrenE]

Justin,

I just sent you a PM with my e-mail address.

Darren

[ThomasW]

20" diameter tube with 15" driver makes a nice combination. Not too big, not too small, and an efficient use of material when the big box stores cut it to 24" dimensions... :T

[KJP]

Ridicubass

I like that word.

:T

[DarrenE]

I forgot to mention I am in the North West side of town up by the County Fairgrounds. I sure don't mind driving across town though.

[DarrenE]

Ridicubass

I like that word.

:T

I also like "Craptacular." :lol:

[steve nn]

It just can't be 6 feet tall.

I think your going to want to avoid SteveCallas then.

[DarrenE]

I think your going to want to avoid SteveCallas then.

Yes, I showed my wife the picture of his sub. Her response was "these people can't be married."

[DarrenE]

So.........

This is looking feasible as long as I don't have to buy tools.

$550 for drivers
~ $600 for amp/amps
That leaves a couple hundred for enclosure materials.

The $1300 is also a goal and not a hard number. One or two hundred over budget is not going to be a deal breaker. I just may have Mr. Visa give me a short term loan.

[---k---]

Yes, I showed my wife the picture of his sub. Her response was "these people can't be married."

When I showed my wife Steve's sub, I think that she said, "Would you like a divorce?"

[Dotay]

So.........

This is looking feasible as long as I don't have to buy tools.

$550 for drivers
~ $600 for amp/amps
That leaves a couple hundred for enclosure materials.

The $1300 is also a goal and not a hard number. One or two hundred over budget is not going to be a deal breaker. I just may have Mr. Visa give me a short term loan.

If you're OK with a sonosub I think I'd have most of the tools you'd need especially if you go ahead and have the place you buy your mdf cut the pieces for you.

[DarrenE]

If you're OK with a sonosub I think I'd have most of the tools you'd need especially if you go ahead and have the place you buy your mdf cut the pieces for you.

Where did you buy the tube and the mdf? I would probably do an 18" or 20" tube. I think your tube was 18" from your thread. Would your patented "super high tech jig" you created be able to do the cut for a 20" tube?

[ThomasW]

Why don't you guys exchange phone numbers?

[Bent]

550 for two drivers?
my two 15" RL-p's cost over 800 bucks Canadian after taxes and brokerages :OMG

the ADA 1200 was about 750 canadian shipped, the 3/4 mdf for my new enclosure (which was just cut today) was 130 Canadian...

now I need to buy some clamps good for at least 2 feet, and about 2 gallons of carpenters glue, some nice terminals (four sets), and some veneer before I put power to it.

Then there's the BFD...

[SteveCallas]

Yes, I showed my wife the picture of his sub. Her response was "these people can't be married."

When I showed my wife Steve's sub, I think that she said, "Would you like a divorce?"

Tell your wives Steve said thank you for reinforcing his mindset to stay unmarried as long as possible :T

I was working on a project at one of our plants last week and the operators were taken aback at how young I was. The guys kept stressing to me that although all your friends who are married will urge you to "join the club" and get married, it's nothing more than a cruel joke they are putting you through so that you won't have it better than them anymore

[---k---]

Not to get too side-tracked, but Steve, getting married was the best thing I ever did. It has made me infinitely happier. But, I got a pretty cool wife who is semi-supportive of my adventures in big bass. To me, it seems like all my friends and co-workers are trying to get me to have kids, to which I usually remind them that if they didn't have kids, they too could have my toys which they are very very jelous of.

[ThomasW]

It's best to have all one's toys before getting married....:wink:

[Paul H]

.. or at least before having kids

Paul

[Hdale85]

yea my soon to be wife doesnt care how big the speakers are...she actually likes HT as much as i do and loves music as well and she doesnt care how big they are and what not i mean when i say i want to get somthing her only reply is "As long as your paying for it" lol so i guess im lucky In fact recently i showed her the Dayton RS 3 ways and said i want to build them and that was exactly her reply "as long as your paying for them" lol

[DarrenE]

Well, I was just messing around with Unibox trying to model up some info for a Soundsplinter RL-p15 and am embarrased to say I have no clue what the heck I was doing or how to interpret what I was getting. Is there a FAQ for this thing someplace? I don't want to be asking too many stupid questions. ops:

[ThomasW]

If you look at the attachments in this thread you'll see some UniBox data for the RL-p15. No this isn't a design you're going to copy.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=18713&page=1&pp=35

If you tell use what you're looking to build (sealed, ported, size, etc?) it's easier for us to model it and post attachments (you can copy those as a learning tool) compared to us typing a tutorial for the program

[DarrenE]

I am looking at using the RL-p15 in a down firing position if this driver is OK in that orientation. I am probably going to want a tube of diameter 20". My first thought is that it would be easiest to hit my extension and output levels with ported but I am not opposed to sealed if somebody wanted to talk me into it. I would rather not go taller than 40" tall including base plate. I would also like to know what port size would be good for a tuning frequency in the approximate 16 to 18 Hz range.

[SteveCallas]

Chasw built a sub almost identical to what you are describing, you might want to look into that....if you want solid reference levels down to 20hz in that size room though, you might have to build two. I have to ask though, have you ever listened at reference levels in that room before? Your current sub would have choked and given up well before that.

[DarrenE]

I have to ask though, have you ever listened at reference levels in that room before? Your current sub would have choked and given up well before that.

And thus, the upgrade process began. The plan is to have two subs.

My mains get much closer than the sub. I have Ascend 340 fronts and 170 rears so they do pretty well until about -5 to -10 under reference depending on the source material. I think I am more amp limited with the mains but I don't want to spend a ton of money on amps. I tried pro amps but couldn't get past the fan noise. I tried the Carvin amp you are running with your sub and sent it back due to the fan noise.

I don't want the capability to run reference so I can actually run at that volume. The untreated room won't allow it. I want overhead so I am not pushing limits at my preferred levels. My current sub is good until about -15 under reference. I figure that if I upgrade the sub I will get closer to reference and then add a second of the same and get most of the way if not all the way. My current frame of reference for subs is not a HTiB sub so I need to do something special or spend a chunk of money to match and then surpass it.

[SteveCallas]

I don't want the capability to run reference so I can actually run at that volume. The untreated room won't allow it. I want overhead so I am not pushing limits at my preferred levels

Fair enough, same here at the moment.

My current frame of reference for subs is not a HTiB sub so I need to do something special or spend a chunk of money to match and then surpass it.

Just one of these RLp 15 sonosubs should very easily outdo a 25-31 PC+.

[chasw98]

I am running 340SE's across the front and 170SE's for the rear with Behringer EP2500 amps driving it all. I have gone into the amp and reversed the fan flow and put in a 150 ohm 5 watt resistor in series with the fan positive lead. This is not recommended by Behringer! I cannot hear the fan even up close. I also have lots of headroom. My sub is a little taller than the 40 inches you specified. Mine is 54 inches, but who's counting? I have measured response down to 16 Hz using a 6 inch port. I have approx 3200 cu ft to fill and it does the job very nicely.

Chuck

[Hdale85]

40 54 sounds the same to me lol afterall cant think of size when dealing with SQ right?

[ThomasW]

For ease of construction and higher SAF, you could build a pair of relatively short sealed tube subs, or something like Ryan's or Steve nn's cube type subs.

If you go ported (16Hz) you're going to need a subsonic filter to protect the drivers from frequencies below the port tuning. And there's a lot of stuff below 16Hz on most DVD's.

So sealed will be less complicated to design and built. They'll be cheaper since you don't need to buy port material or a subsonic filter. And the enclosures can be smaller .

[DarrenE]

My Velodyne SMS-1 sub EQ does have an adjustable rumble filter. It can be set to 15 Hz with a 24 Db per octave rolloff.

I am thinking about the sealed option for ease of construction and size.