Solen's diy Ultimate Revelation

[Markc]

Hi All:
I'm new here and I'm searching for info/comments about this speaker kit. It looks interesting, although expensive, but after having a friend's diy pair of Scanspeak 18w/8546 based mtm's in my room for a while, I thought that I'd seek out any info available, as I really enjoy the sound, ( voicing-especially the midrange). My room is about medium size, (12.5'x21'x8'), and I have a pair of hybrid mono blocks for amps, tube pre and tubed output CDP. The 8546's are a little overkill for my room. Any way, any thoughts, comments or suggestions would be welcome.
Web site for kit:

http://solen.ca/ssur.htm

[JonMarsh]

Nice looking cabinets, for conventional drivers, I do agree with a B3 alignment crossover for an MTM. It's a lowish crossover frequency, which is good, considering the driver spacing, though technically I have to quibble that it's not low enough, considering the driver spacing. Tweeter should have been moutned asymmetrically to minimize baffle impact on tweeter FR.

BUT, Crossover Pro?!? Ewwwwww. : Where'es the measured driver data? Where's the baffle step compensation in the LF crossover? Note that they're claiming 90 dB sensitivity- this SS midwoofer is only 84.5 dB/ 2.82VRMS, so paralleling two, and having NO baffle step comp and no crossover insersion loss is the only way that "spec" is valid. Why is that a problem? Well, without 4-5 dB of baffle step compensation (which lowers the sensitivity), the region above where the baffle size causes 2pi radiation instead of 4pi space radiation is up by 6 dB. So, BSC is introduced to flatten the response, so that the speaker doesn't sound hugely midrange forward or low mid/bass light. With these drivers an a correctly executed design, the nominal sensivity would be in the 85 dB range total, not 90. Which isn't bad, but it seems to indicate someone doesn't have their eye on the ball at Solen, or doesn't think the folks that buy their kits will notice.


Why design (apparently) for a power response dip in the crossover region? Where are measurements of the completed system?

Another point- if your friends 7" Scan were "a bit too much", my guess is that they probably weren't placed well in the room, and that might make the bass a bit heavy. My personall opinion is that dual 5" woofers do not a full range speaker make (though the SS do have some healthy Xmax as small drivers go)- distortion and sensitivity just don't keep up. This system will have some decent bass, being relatively large for the SS drivers and ported, but from looking at what they post, it won't be balanced right.


If it were my money, I'd take the enclosure design, scale it up to 7" from 5.5" midwoofers, build it to the same width as a Natlie P/Modula MTM, (which is a skosh wider than this) if you're on a budget, use the Natlie P in one of it's tweeter variants (27TDFC if you like soft domes, drop in an H1212 to the same crossover if you want a "budget" but very nice aluminum dome, and the RS28a-4 version if you prefer a slightly drier but very neutral sound. Use all the money you save on drivers to spluge a little on the tweeter series caps, replacing half of each value with a film and foil AudioCAP Theta.

At least, contact Solen and see if they have any measured curves for the system. And for the acoustic output as well as driver filter transfer function so you can see what they're really doing.

This is the sort of thing which I'm afraid I see too often, with expensive well known drivers and an under engineered kit design; the hope being that the kit design will sell based on the reputation of the drivers.

[Markc]

Thanks for the reply Jon. I'm not quite sure what you meant by "replace half of each value" in the tweeter series caps. The main reason that I'm interested in the 5.5" scans is that on my Boxmodel program I can get an F3 of 35hz. With the 7" I can only achieve an F3 of around 41hz. Do you have any other mid/bass drivers to suggest that offer good low end response and liquid mids?

[ThomasW]

He talking about using higher quality 'bypass' caps that replace 1/2 the value of the caps that are in series with the tweeter.

Do you have any other mid/bass drivers to suggest that offer good low end response and liquid mids?

Yep, the RS drivers from Parts Express.

[Markc]

He talking about using higher quality 'bypass' caps that replace 1/2 the value of the caps that are in series with the tweeter.

Yep, the RS drivers from Parts Express.

Right, gottcha. Thanks.

Sorry to be a pain, but what are the experts thoughts on the Exodus 2641 kit design? www.diycable.com

[ThomasW]

Jon bought 8 Extremis drivers during the presale. He then sold them for a 50% loss, after they didn't meet expectations.

Graham's project is a sticky thread. He's pleased with how they sound

[Dennis H]

To be fair, the 2641 is a 3-way, using a pair of Extremis for bass and a WR125 for the mid. They could be pretty nice but I've never heard them so who knows?

[dawaro]

Well the Extremis drivers Jon had were purchased through me by someone that I was building a HT set for based on the Exodus kits, including the 2641. After he had purchased all the xovers and drivers except the Usher tweeters his financial situation changed (divorce) and the speakers did not fit his budget. In return for enclosures that I had built for the set he offered to let me keep the drivers and xovers. Needless to say I accepted the offer. I ordered the Usher tweeters this week and they should arrive tomorrow. If work permits I should have a set of 2641's up and running this weekend.

If you would like I can post my impressions...

[Dennis H]

If you would like I can post my impressions...

Please do!

[Markc]

Yes, I'd certainly appreciate your input Dawaro. As I'm in the research stage for new speaks, any and all feedback is going to be an asset for me. Work this time of year is slow in my profession,(HVAC tech), so I won't be shelling out for @ least a couple of months. I do have interest in the 2641, and there is an unassembled pair for sale on another site that I belong to at a decent price, (including cherry cabs). Problem is, I'm sure that they will sell sooner than I'd like to send the money.

[Jonasz]

Jon, how can you in other words describe the RS28 having a "drier" sound? Do you mean lesser "air"? I've been listening to the RS28 for a couple of weeks now and I really like it, especially down low. I never thought a metaltweeter could be this smooooth! ;x(

Jonas

[JonMarsh]

Well, yes, I mean less "air", aka, less "sheen", aka, less distortion. But also less output in the 12-18 kHz region. Not a lot less, but noticable.

I hope I"m not miscommunicating- I like the RS28a a LOT; imagine a ScanSpeak SS9800 on steriods with a lot more low end capability and SPL capability before things get hard or gritty; that's the RS28a. It's very neutral, but just a skosh dry. Including compared with the SS9800. I like dry wines, too, and I prefer sins of omission, rather than sins of commission, which is what most tweeters do.

For any two way design, it's still one of my top favorites, assuming one needs a crossover under 2 kHz. It would be rare for anything else to be the case. At 1800 Hz, there are a few other options that are interesting, depending on the rest of the system quality- I still have a soft spot for Focal TC120dx2, but a lot of solid state gear doesn't mesh well with them, too revealing perhaps.

"Dry" can be a fairly subtle thing, and in general is MUCH less bothersome than the opposite. It's like the big JBL's Ayre was using at CES; when I first hear them, I felt the balance was a bit dry, but I wasn't inclined to second guess Chas and the gang. OTOH, the editor from Stereo Times in Japan who IS quite familiar with that model and what it's Be dome compression drivers should do thought the same thing, and WAS inclined to let Chas know, so they adjusted the balance pots, not a lot, but the difference was significant in my mind for bringing things more into focus and sharpening the sound stage, so to speak. We're probably only talking a dB or two, but over a couple of octaves, it adds up.

~Jon

[Jonasz]

Jon: You kind of know my system from my other thread. Can I change the output of the RS28 (to get more output in the 12-18khz region) passively by using a capasitor and a resistor? If so, what do you suggest?

Best regards,
Jonas

[JonMarsh]

You could try that; the trick is you have to have some passive attenuation of the tweeter and flattening of the impedance curve for things to work out right passively. Here's what it looked like in the Modula MTM.

[Jonasz]

Jon: My goal is to use the active crossover I use today. What I would like to do is for you to suggest a starting point for me to straighten the response over 10 khz... I hope I'm not bugging you in any way...

[JonMarsh]

No, not at all. The trick might be to use a zobel in the top end, an Lpad, and the EQ network. Give me some time to look at it in LspCAD this weekend or next- should be able to come up with something you can try. There would be a passive loss (probably 2-3 dB) which you'll have to make up wtih increasing the level on the tweeter output. Shouldn't be hard to do.

[Jonasz]

Thanks Jon!

Tonight I've been playing AC/DC big time! The RS28 must be the best rock'n'roll tweeter ever! It got omph down low, stamina and detail without getting irritating whatsoever! I must say that it's gelling with the W22 in a very good way!

[JonMarsh]

I would rather expect that! That's why there's a pair of W22s here since last December to play with....

[Markc]

Well the Extremis drivers Jon had were purchased through me by someone that I was building a HT set for based on the Exodus kits, including the 2641. After he had purchased all the xovers and drivers except the Usher tweeters his financial situation changed (divorce) and the speakers did not fit his budget. In return for enclosures that I had built for the set he offered to let me keep the drivers and xovers. Needless to say I accepted the offer. I ordered the Usher tweeters this week and they should arrive tomorrow. If work permits I should have a set of 2641's up and running this weekend.

If you would like I can post my impressions...

How goes the progress on the 2641's?