DIY vs used speakers

**ThomasW** · 23 January 2006, 19:22 Monday

Unless you're buying something price fixed like B&W or Maggies, no one pays retail for speakers. So the $3K is misleading.

If the company is still in business then buying used isn't too much of a risk.

$1K would buy the parts for a pretty amazing DIY speaker.

Realistically one can't factor in labor since there's such a HUGE difference between 'beginner's' abilities.

One doesn't build DIY speakers to same money. The investment in tools alone kills any cost savings. If one is already a woodworker, then speaker building can save money since the capital investment is a done deal.

Shipping 200lbs wouldn't be cheap.

**RonS** · 23 January 2006, 20:58 Monday

My cousin picked up a pair of B&W 801 matrix II this past summer for $500CDN. Mint condition! I would be hard pressed to build a comprable speaker for anywhere near that price. To say the least, I was jealous. I do think that there are some deals to be had out there.

As Thomas said though, one doesn't build DIY speakers to save money.

**dwk** · 23 January 2006, 21:15 Monday

Well, in my view one doesn't build DIY speakers to save money :B

Okay, not as the primary motivation. Used commercial speakers undoubtedly represent a much simpler and quicker path to a viable system than does DIY. AND, they have far more resale value when you inevitably decide to 'trade up'/'move on'

DIY speaker building is like any other hobby IMHO - you do it because you're interested in the process, and are rewarded by the results. If those aren't your primary motivations, then off-the-shelf either new or used is the way to go.

A kit might be a good hybrid approach, but I'd guess that you wouldn't ultimately end up saving much over used if you were patient.

My anecdote: I've been 'diy-ing' speakers for ~12 years on the road to a fully digital multi-amped setup. To date, I've basically never had a system including my speakers that has been 'fully operational' - as soon as I get a stable result, I tear it down to work on the next iteration.
For the first time in years, I have a stable working system. Why? Because I won a pair of ACI Sapphire XL's in the Katrina Charity Raffle. (and yes - they are very good) Of course, that just means that I can work on my DIY efforts while actually having a working system for once

**kgveteran** · 23 January 2006, 22:29 Monday

Ilooked around for a center channel speaker for about 6 months.I looked on Audiogon and found nothing in my price range (400.00 used).My thought was to get a Aerial Acoustic CC3.The closest I got was one for about 550.00. Still too much plus shipping.

After posting on AVS for some help on where to tunt to for a center channel I got a link to the center channel posted by Dawaro,http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=15323

Last step is to get the binding posts from PE.

I'm sure this will fit the bill.NHT has a center , the M6 (I think).Our local NHT dealer gave one of the worst demo's I have ever heard.I think it has some hope but not with him at the command.DIY offers lots of opportunuties.You gotta keep searching.

Edit:I paid 400.00 all said and done :B

**fvoelling** · 24 January 2006, 00:40 Tuesday

I realize that most of you are not primarily doing it to save money per se, but my question is, if one were to spend a given amount on the electronic parts and cabinet materials for a DIY design, what is the multiplier for similar commercial speakers (again, ignoring aspects like differences in finish, exotic materials, warranties, ability to listen beforehand, value of your own time, satisfaction derived from building your own, hobby factor, etc)?

Here's where I'm coming from. I could use a set of speakers each for my workshop and office. Fit and finish aren't too important, and if I could at least match the sound quality of a used speaker (let's assume the 1/3 street price, I think your cousin got extremely lucky, Ron) with a DIY approach, I would go that route to learn, experiment, improve my woodworking skills, the fun and satisfaction of building yourself, and possibly even get better speakers (especially in the lower price range) than buying used.

On the other side of the spectrum, I have heard and admired speakers costing from ten to thirty thousand or so dollars, and if it is possible to get close to that level of performance for much less (and without an engineering degree

), then I'm more than intrigued!

BTW, I should have most of the required woodworking tools, and building speakers would help justify at least some of that expense.

Frank

**ThomasW** · 24 January 2006, 00:48 Tuesday

High-end speakers Avalon, Wilson, etc are sold for 9 times mfgr's cost.

If you have the knowledge to copy a high-end design, it can be done for a fraction of the retail price. I cloned the Legacy Whispers ($15K retail price) for $2500 in parts/materials. I didn't ask him but I doubt that Jon's X1-SLAMM copies were more than $3000-$3500 including the active XO. Retail on the X1's at the time of cloning was $69K

**cotdt** · 24 January 2006, 00:51 Tuesday

I am young and DIY to save money. I've yet to find even used set of good condition speakers that can rival the ModulaMT ($400 total w/Sonicaps capacitors) to my ears, which like detail, speed, bass impact, good tonal balance and clear/crisp treble. Commercial speakers tend to excel very well in creating artificially huge soundstages and here I think buying used beats DIY. But for the kind of sound I like, it's hard to beat DIY.

Also, the only tools I use is dremel, table saw, screwdriver and soldering iron (mine is $3, but a cig lighter can also be used to save even more), which I can use to make perfect circles and flat cuts for less than $60. More expensive tools make the job easier, but what's the point when you are on a budget and make one speaker every two years or so. No need for measurement mics if an expert like the guys in these forums have already made the design which anyone can freely use. So yes, I really do think DIY can save money while getting awesome speakers and this is very appealing to the younger generation of speaker builders like myself.

Not to mention being able to tweak the speakers to match the speaker placement and room type.

**JonMarsh** · 24 January 2006, 07:03 Tuesday

Another thing to think about is being in the sweet spot for tool cost. This can make the hobby a lot more viable for many folks.

My main power saw, a Ryobi BT3100, is a model many wood workers would look down their nose at, because of it's non-standard approach to many design issues, and relatively light weight. Yet it has one of the best standard fences in a saw under $1K, and includes a very useful sliding miter table in the base price ($300). Due to it's wide belt/shallow pulley design, it can make deeper cuts than any other 10" saw, approaching the capabilities of 12" saws. It was a key factor in being able to design and build speakers like these:

You don't need to have 5 or 6 routers like I do, all setup for particular jobs. You don't need to have a sliding laser guided miter saw that costs more than my table saw. (but it's useful). You don't need to have a biscuit joiner, but you may find it rather handy for some types of construction, some day.

One problem is that cool tools become there own goal of sorts.

You can get Giardin's calibrated electret capsule microphone for cheap to do your measurements; you'll have to treat it with some care, as I treat my Ryobi saw, but it will give very good results for measuring on a budget. OTOH, I used a B&K for decades with an HP mic preamp, so when I decided I needed to upgrade due to the electronics and mic cable getting cantankerous, I went with an ACCO Pacific. Same kind of build quality and construction and performance. Since I spend more time measuring and tweaking than I do building wood (I'm something of a duffer in wood working), that choice makes some sense for me, but might not for a lot of folks.

You brain and your heart will be your guide.

~Jon

**fvoelling** · 24 January 2006, 10:18 Tuesday

"One problem is that cool tools become there own goal of sorts."

Ain't that the truth! I could have bought some really nice speakers for all the money I've spent on my work shop, and there doesn't seem to be an end in sight (amazing just how many tools there are).

BTW, those are really cool looking speakers, I don't think you're giving yourself enough credit as a woodworker!

Well, I'm convinced now that it's worth a try to DIY, and I'd like to start with an easy to build, smaller, monitor-type speaker. Any plans or threads you guys can recommend for some guidance? I saw the "Golden Boys" garage speakers on Parts Express site, is that a good start or can I do significantly better if I increase the budget to about $200 (wood excluded)?

**BobEllis** · 24 January 2006, 14:21 Tuesday

Someone said that PE designs are often as likely intended to move excess inventory as be a good sounding design. Those golden boys are inventory movers - look at the response curve. See that huge peak in the bass. If you want boomy one note bass that is suitable for a disco, they might not be the worst choice. If you want more accurate reproduction , look elsewhere.

Take a look at www.zaphaudio.com for a collection of designs, including some in your price range. There are other sites as well. The Modula MT should be very good if you can stretch you budget closer to $300 for drivers and XO. CJD's design http://www.eldamar.net/audio/rs150mtm/ is a little less of a budget stretch and only gives up a little bass extension.

**MrPorterhouse** · 26 January 2006, 13:09 Thursday

Originally posted by BobEllis

Someone said that PE designs are often as likely intended to move excess inventory as be a good sounding design. Those golden boys are inventory movers - look at the response curve. See that huge peak in the bass. If you want boomy one note bass that is suitable for a disco, they might not be the worst choice. If you want more accurate reproduction , look elsewhere.

Those drivers aren't making PE much return at all. Did you see the cost? I think PE does a good job of keeping its customer's best interests in mind and trying to cater to projects that give a wide audience and fill some practical needs. The "Golden Boys" are not designed for sound quality at all, but for exactly how they were presented in the article. Speakers on the cheap that can pound.

**BobEllis** · 26 January 2006, 15:04 Thursday

All supplier designs can be considered inventory movers to some extent. My comment wasn't meant to disrespect PE designs, merely point out that inexpensive and easy to build tend to take priority over squeezing the last bit of sound quality out of the chosen drivers. As you point out, that design is not about sound quality, merely quantity.

I assumed, perhaps incorrectly, that fvoelling was looking for good sound quality rather than just a good eardrum pounding.

**Brian Bunge** · 26 January 2006, 23:38 Thursday

Jon,

A few days ago you mentioned the Kim G. mics. I have one of those already that I'd love to use for measurements but need a decent mic pre. Do you know what it requires in the form of a preamp? I have a DIY battery-powered pre that was designed for the mic but I've never really known if it was decent or not. I really want to get the M-Audio Mobile Pre but would like to know if it is compatible with my mic. Do you have any idea? If I have to I'll just get the Behringer mic but would really like to use what I have if I can.

**fvoelling** · 27 January 2006, 02:51 Friday

Yes, sound quality is important even in the workshop (I wear hearing protection when running the major power tools, no need for the speakers to compete against them). Also, part of the fun is to build really great sounding speakers for a given budget range and it only makes sense to hit the sweet spot in terms of "bang for the buck".

Alas, I have a pair of old Pinnacle bookshelf speakers in my office now that I could use in the workshop if I were to start with a really good speaker. But here's the conundrum. I have two desks, bookshelves, file cabinets etc in a 13wx15lx10h space, with my desk almost sitting in the corner facing the wall. I can either put the speakers behind me (not even in a nice equilateral triangle), or in front of me 3 to 4ft away and maybe 6ft apart (on a shelf/cabinet directly against the wall).

I'm guessing that the front, up against the wall location is the better one, albeit still a compromise. The height is limited to 15" it it were to go on the shelf, or they'll have to be hung on the wall. I wish I had more space, then I'd get myself a pair of MMG Maggies, I think they'd be perfect for the type and volume of music that I listen to in the office (no plans for DIY planars I take it).

I looked at the designs on the zaphaudio site, and the "Seas L18 / Seas 27TBFCG" design looks promising (though I can't say I agree with all of his audio beliefs

). However, John's recommended placement for a very similar design of his (the "Seas L15RLYP / 27TFFC System") calls for the baffle to be 24-30" from the front wall and 3-4' from the side wall. Is this typical of just about any speaker (what about the Modula MT), and what am I giving up by placing them against the wall?

Frank

**ThomasW** · 27 January 2006, 12:11 Friday

Is this typical of just about any speaker (what about the Modula MT), and what am I giving up by placing them against the wall?

Speakers contain BSC (baffle step compensation) this is part of the crossover. If they're placed too close to a boundry the midbass is muddy.

And the answer to your next question is, no it's not something you can simply leave out, it's integrated into the values of the standard components in the XO

**fvoelling** · 27 January 2006, 19:10 Friday

I'm wondering if a planar speaker like the Maggie would be less affected by this, or maybe I should just stick to the smaller computer speakers for my office

.

**sfdoddsy** · 03 March 2006, 01:33 Friday

I used to exclusively buy good high end speakers second hand, and there are some real bargains, especially at the real high end - Wilson, Genesis, Martin-Logan and of course Audio Artistry.

However, my DIY speakers cost me about the same as the used speakers they replaced (Wilson WATTs) and to me sound considerably better.

Cheers

Steve

DIY vs used speakers

DIY vs used speakers

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