Cloning various Totem loudspeakers

[pcatt]

HI HI!!

I am willing to clone the TOTEM SHAMAN!!
The biggest problem for me is the bass driver.. I can nowhere find a speaker with the same specs. Maybe someone knows which speaker is used in the bass bin of the SHAMAN???

if you want to take a look:

http://www.totemacoustic.com/english/products/floorStanding_shaman.htm

thanx...

If anyone has questions about cloning other TOTEM models... maybe I can help you!!

[ThomasW]

It's a custom made 10" driver. I don't know any mfgr that offers flat drivers to the DIY market. I also fail to see the need for it (other than marketing).

It's not rocket science to tune a vented box to 15Hz.

And 1" P-P Xmax isn't "super" long throw in todays world of high excursion drivers with 30+mm of one way Xmax.

You could use the Oaudio TC2+ 10" and get more output. Personally I think a 12" or 15" is a better choice.....

Edit...

Since they're running it up to 220Hz with a second order XO you might want to also look at the new RS-10" drivers from Parts Express. They have a lower Xmax than the TC2+ but will have a bit less distortion up high...

[AJINFLA]

This might work: http://yellow.mynethost.com/~bv12636...271824ccf1cb89

Cheers,

AJ

[ThomasW]

Jon's driver may 'look' the part, but it has a high "Q", so it's not going to work that well in the vented (Totem uses a PR) box needed to get the 15Hz tuning.

[jdybnis]

The driver complement in the Shaman doesn't make much sense to me. You can do a lot better. I'd ditch the super tweeter, use a 3/4" tweeter instead of 1" and lower all the crossover points by 30%. All modern 3/4" tweeters can crossover at 4kHz without a problem. Better ones can do 2.5kHz easy. Most 2" domes go much lower than 1.2kHz and if you move the crossover point down to 800Hz you'll have an easy time finding an 8" woofer that performs well down to below 150Hz with minimal filtering on top. You can use a high excursion 12" or 15" on the bottom and there are several good ones availible that can play that high. Overall you'll end up with a simpler design, deeper bass, and none of the comb filtering problems that the Shaman has.

Edit: The Wind looks like an interesting design to clone.

[pcatt]

TOTEM forest

Hi hi..

I am also researching how to clone the totem SHAMAN, but that is very hard to do... So i also start with a much easier job to do.. THE FOREST.

The sub speakers is definately an Hi-Vi D6.8.. And not a dynaudio or max fidelity. The number of holes are not the same!!

And the tweeter is definately from SEAS!!
The only question I have... does anyone know the exact type which is used by TOTEM ???


:T

[JonW]

Hi Folks,

First post here. This is a topic I’m quite interested in. I’ve got Totem Forests as my main speakers, in a music only setup. Been thinking about adding a center and pair of rear speakers for movies. And I’m in the midst of building a subwoofer (so far so good). The idea of trying to build the center and/or rears has come to mind. And I might as well match them to the Forests. Is there any info on such an endeavor available out there? Maybe start with a center and see how that goes? The Forests would probably be easier to try and copy because it’s only 2 drivers and 1 crossover, versus the complexity of the Shaman. I figure I’d need to get:
-the same tweeter
-the same midwoofer
-a similar crossover
-plans for a good cabinet

My understanding (not sure if it’s true) is that Totem modifies their drivers a fair amount. So I do wonder if timbre matching is not really going to happen. Any info or discussion would be appreciated.

-Jon

[JonMarsh]

Realistically, timber matching would be more a function of understanding what they've done (axial response and power response) and using that as a design target.

Drivers to use would be pretty easy, HiVi D6.8, and Seas H1212. Start with the Modula MT as the basis for the crossover... should be pretty easy, as all the metal cone resonance won't be present. The narrow baffle size means there will be a fair amount of baffle step compensation, but I don't think the Forest is all that much narrower than 10.5", so probably not a big change. Just some crossover design tweaks, the sort of stuff that's easy to tune in with LspCAD.

Regards,

Jon

[robfive]

FYI

I am not sure if Totem treats the tweeters the same for the Model 1 and the Forest but Stereophile reports the following:

"The 1" metal-dome tweeter is highly modified at Totem before being installed in the Model 1. When it arrives from SEAS, Totem dismantles and rebuilds the tweeter, removing the front phase plug and modifying and damping the rear resonance chamber to match the woofer's." http://stereophile.com/standloudspeakers/820/

[JonMarsh]

Removing the front phase plug is a good thing, IMO, but "damping the rear resonance chamber to match the woofers" sounds like a bit of marketing speak. The H1212 does have a rear chamber with fairly low resonance; in practice, this is well below the driver's operating range. DLR, who's tested a lot of tweeters, and modded many of them, finds adding lambs wool to the pole vent useful in many speakers; I've done that with a couple of the Seas models but it makes only a very small measurable difference in amplitude response or impedance curve.

Perhaps you can hear it- it might be interesting to investigate the ETC plots and see if it shows up in improved time domain behavior. Since it doesn't materially flatten tweeters that have issues there, I'm a bit skeptical, and more inclined to think the effort would be better spent with other problems.

For example, the cabinet edge design of the Totems will have significant diffraction issues due to a sharp square edge- that one can EASILY measure, at significant amplitude levels. A rounded baffle edge would be better, but then the tone matching of the "improved" version wouldn't match the original.

~Jon

[pcatt]

dear all, in the tweeter used in the totem forest is a total customised thing. But the OEM manager of SEAS told me that the H1214 is the closest! not the 1212...

[pcatt]

shaman woofer

the original woofer of the shaman must be made by PRECISION POWER... is told me by a supplier of TOTEM.. But I cannot find any documentation of this type of speaker... if anyone knows... let me know!!

[Mazar]

Precision Power makes car audio subs that look like the woofers in the Shaman.

[JonMarsh]

dear all, in the tweeter used in the totem forest is a total customised thing. But the OEM manager of SEAS told me that the H1214 is the closest! not the 1212...

Quite likely, but that's not necessarily a good reason to use it in your "Klone". It has lacks the rear damping chamber of the H1212, having a solid rear plate with the Fs being raised from 550 Hz to 1100 Hz. Not actually an advantage apart from using the earlier driver roll off as part of the crossover, which lowers the crossover costs.

In many cases, directly copying a manufacturer's approach means you'll also be directly copying their cost cutting techniques which may NOT help the performance compared with what can be delivered with a more informed DIY design.

Just something for you to think about.... I suspect their "modification" to the H1212 is primarily in putting some stuffing material into the pole piece core (if there is one) and adjusting the ferrofluid. As I point out in my previouis post, those make very LITTLE difference in the behavior of a design considering the other acoustical factors involved in driver selection, baffle design, and crossover performance.

As regards the LF driver in the big guy, really, the specific cone material or construction for a driver covering 200 Hz on down is probably not too critical; the right T/S parameters, low THD and IM (don't forget those Faraday shorting rings to control inductivity modulation) are more worth getting concerned over than whether the driver cone is flat or not. Unless appearance is your prime concern.

Good luck with your project- have fun!

~Jon

[JonW]

Realistically, timber matching would be more a function of understanding what they've done (axial response and power response) and using that as a design target.

Drivers to use would be pretty easy, HiVi D6.8, and Seas H1212. Start with the Modula MT as the basis for the crossover... should be pretty easy, as all the metal cone resonance won't be present. The narrow baffle size means there will be a fair amount of baffle step compensation, but I don't think the Forest is all that much narrower than 10.5", so probably not a big change. Just some crossover design tweaks, the sort of stuff that's easy to tune in with LspCAD.

Regards,

Jon

Jon,

Thanks for the info. I've never built a speaker before, so I first have to figure out if I'm capable of doing this. I'm building a sub at the moment, maybe as a starter project. It's fun. I bought a book called "Speaker Building 201" which is pretty nice, but I'm not too far into it yet. Many questions come to mind. And this is just the first round.

-How did you know those 2 drivers are the ones to use?

-If I used those 2 drivers but did not modify them in any way, you seem to think I could still get a decent timbre match with my Forests, correct? It doesn't have to be perfect, but in the ballpark would be nice.

-From Google, I couldn't find much on a "Modula MT" crossover. Is this a prebuilt crossover that I could buy? And how does one modify it to your needs?

-What is baffle step compensation? Sorry, I know pretty much nothing about building speakers (if you couldn't tell already).

-I'd guess building these speakers has to be much more complicated than just picking drivers, buying a crossover, connecting them all in a properly sized cabinet. What am I missing?

-Those 2 drivers look pretty cheap, about $100 for a pair of each. Not bad at all. What other major expenses will I run into?

-Ideally, I'll build 3 speakers- a center channel and 2 rear speakers. Would you build all 3 at once or make one and see how things go?

-Building speakers looks to be lots of fun. But really, how tough is this going to be?

[JonW]

For example, the cabinet edge design of the Totems will have significant diffraction issues due to a sharp square edge- that one can EASILY measure, at significant amplitude levels. A rounded baffle edge would be better, but then the tone matching of the "improved" version wouldn't match the original.

My Forests have the left and right front edges rounded. (But not the top) Couldn't you just use a roundeover bit and a router to replicate this? Or maybe it's not nearly that simple, in terms of optimizing the design?

[Dotay]

-From Google, I couldn't find much on a "Modula MT" crossover. Is this a prebuilt crossover that I could buy? And how does one modify it to your needs?

I'm not Jon obviously but I can answer this for you. Read through the Modula MT thread in this forum to get an idea of what is involved in putting together a set of speakers. This thread has the crossover schematic that Jon suggested might be a good starting point to use for your Kloning effort.

[JonMarsh]

You're on the money, Justin.

JonW, when we talk about rounding to reduce diffraction effects at the cabinet edge for high frequencies, that's rounding with a radius on the order of 1-1/2". The Totem design will have a strong edge diffraction, but at relatively high frequency for the first ripples due to the narrow overall design.


Here's the net response of the individual drivers and port output for the Totem Forest, as measured by Stereophile.





Here's the summation of the total response:




Some of the elevation in the 8-12 kHz region is most likely due to cabinet edge diffraction. The Seas tweeter by itself is flatter than that.

Note that this is a response averaged across 30 degrees front axis, which may "mask" some effects that are more directional (see axial plot above).

Regards,

Jon

[pcatt]

SHAMAN tweeter

From the SHAMAN i know from every speaker which one it is... exept from the little tweeter on top of it...

ANYONE???

thanx again!!

[JonMarsh]

Almost certainly that same Seas H1214 tweeter. Probably with the plastic diffuser removed from under the screen, and with some long fiber wool stuffed down the pole piece.

Now, if it were me, working with a dome mid like that, I'd go with the Seas H1283 on top, which is a 3/4" dome with a lot better controlled upper breakup.
It also doesn't have a phase diffuser to begin with (I know, I have quite a few H1212 and H1283 on hand).



Has better HF dispersion in the 10 kHz plus area, also.

[JonW]

JonW, when we talk about rounding to reduce diffraction effects at the cabinet edge for high frequencies, that's rounding with a radius on the order of 1-1/2". The Totem design will have a strong edge diffraction, but at relatively high frequency for the first ripples due to the narrow overall design.

Jon- Thanks for the info. Hmmm... I really know nothing about this speaker building process. But I just so happen to be 3 speakers short at the moment. And I'm up for learning how to do this. Might as well try and get things as close as I can to my Forests. Many questions will follow (in other threads). Something interesting to think about...

-Jon

[pcatt]

dear jonmarsh,

the tweeters IN the shaman are the LPG 26T and the 51AT... but the Seas H1283.. does that fit in such a small "wedge mount" on top op the shaman?? Could it be that the TOP tweeter is also an LPG?? they also have the 25NFA & 26NA with such a mount...???

[pcatt]

The bass driver is a precision power powerclass pro 10 when i am right.... but it is very hard to get information of this speaker. it is an "old" model and will not be made by precision power i think...

If anyone knows where i can buy a couple of these.. let me know! thanx!

[JonMarsh]

dear jonmarsh,

the tweeters IN the shaman are the LPG 26T and the 51AT... but the Seas H1283.. does that fit in such a small "wedge mount" on top op the shaman?? Could it be that the TOP tweeter is also an LPG?? they also have the 25NFA & 26NA with such a mount...???

I'm familiar with the LPG26T, and until recently seeing a variety of posts claiming the Seas models are used in Totems, it was my belief that that was the tweeter used in the majority of their models. It's something of a mixed bag; doesn't work well down low, and is VERY sensitive to VC alignment in the gap, to the extent that I wouldn't ever use one without rebuilding and testing it. this thread shows my recommendations for tuning it up. Otherwise, you'll get rather high distortion from it in many cases as delivered.

[pcatt]

thanx jonmarsh...

is it also usefull to do the same with the LPG 51 AT???

[ThomasW]

is it also usefull to do the same with the LPG 51 AT???

If it has the same problem.

[pcatt]

still looking for the sub driver!!!

precision power powerclass pro 10 (old model with flat cone)

can anyone help me with this!!! this is my biggest problem for the shaman!!!