Rl-p15 or Dayton Titanic MKIII 15

**ThomasW** · 03 January 2006, 17:04 Tuesday

At this point in time I'd wait until after the CES (starts this week) to see what new products are announced then choose.

Oh that didn't answer your primary question......

If you have a good sized amp and the goal is a high output woofer that can take a pounding forever I'd go with the RL-p 15, and plan on using EQ to boost the bottom end.

**J-Dub** · 03 January 2006, 18:11 Tuesday

Thanks Thomas,
I was thinking that the Rl-p might be a little better. at least the specs looked good!
I am also going to wait, like you have suggested, to see if anything new comes out better. Of course I will probably need your expert opinion since I won't know much about whats comming out.

btw, I'm planning on using a PE 500w @ 4 ohm or a PE 1000w @ 4 ohm. Think the 500w will do just fine. Adires stuff is a little out of budget. I'll save that for the next project

As far as EQ's go the plate amp says it has a built in EQ but I dont know if that will be enough. The only experience I have with this is the sub I built for my friend. To be honest all I have done is go over periodically and listen to it for a while the mess with the crossover. (cut from 40 to 180) Last I was there it was cut a little to low and the JBL E80's he has were not filling in the gaps so I cut it at about 80-90Hz. seemed to sound a lot better but then again I'm not quite the audiophile that most are in this forum. (sub in mention) : dayton MKIII12 sonotube, 2- 6" ports tuned to 19.5Hz, 340w @ 4 ohm plate amp.

oh, sorry to sound ignorant but what exactly is CES

Thanks for the help!

**ThomasW** · 03 January 2006, 18:37 Tuesday

C.E.S.

I'd go with the bigger amp and plan on using EQ something like the Behringer DSP1124P. You can by the EQ later

**J-Dub** · 04 January 2006, 14:22 Wednesday

WOW!

Sounds like a lot of fun! If I were not going to get any sleep in Vegas; This would be the way to do it! :B

No prob! Bigger amp it is! Man I'm in trouble now!
(Texas Motto: BIGGER is BETTER! BIGGER is BETTER!, BIGGER is BETTER!)
Next thing you know this project will turn into a 25 driver IB using 18" Tumults or something 8O
30'000 WATTS OF POWER!!! HAH HAH HAH!!! :twisted:

Sorry, got carried away.

**Kyle Richardson** · 05 January 2006, 11:13 Thursday

The Titanic is a good driver for sure, but I've talked to several people that have traded their Titanics for the RL-p's and have liked the RL-p better.

**J-Dub** · 07 January 2006, 12:09 Saturday

Thanks Kyle,

That is exactly what I was looking for. Just wanted to know if anyone had really put these two subs together and noticed any big differences between the two. Thomas says the RL-p will take more of a beating, probably due to the dual spiders. If anything worth mentioning doesn't come out of CES I will most likely go with the RL-p.

The Dayton 12" project I did for a friend, originally started out as a Peerless XXLS but the peerless couldn't fill the room size he has. (It did give it a good run though)
After a few mods and putting in the Dayton I have to say I was Impressed.
BTW the volume we had to fill in his house is about 10,500 cubic feet!
Very big house with very open living space. living area alone is about 20X20 with 20ft high vaulted ceiling. loft overlooks entire living area, dining room completely open to living and another den type area also open to living. Oh yeah this guy was a big bose fan and had that little thing they try to call a sub in this huge (censored ) house! Needless to say he doesn't believe in bose anymore. Gosh what does a friend gotta do!

I will be building a new house in the Hill Country just outside of San Antonio next year (EDIT: This Year) wich will have comparable room volume. I just want to make sure this sub will do the job after I move in. Then again by that time I just might have to build another sub

**J-Dub** · 15 January 2006, 14:17 Sunday

OK... Just checking in to see if anyone has heard of anything from CES that will compete with the RL-p15 in the same price range.

Another question. I know that pro amps tend to make a little noise but if I am going to use an LT and an FBD would it be a better idea to ditch the PE-1000W plate amp and get the Behringer EP2500 or stay with the plate amp.

lastly, what is a good quality, budget, LT. Dont know if I would want to make it myself. I am not that experienced in that realm and I would need a LOT of help. Would the Behringer CX2310 work?

Thanks for all the help!

**ThomasW** · 15 January 2006, 15:05 Sunday

The only 'new' thing so far from the CES is that PE will have a 15" version of the RS woofers. They won't compete with the RL-p 15 since the Xmax will be more in keeping with the current woofers.

I'd try using the plate amp, if it's not enough then get something else.

The CX2310 is just a crossover nothing else.

Probably the cheapest LT is scratch built using the $15 P71 circuit board from ESP.

http://sound.westhost.com/project71.htm

**SteveCallas** · 15 January 2006, 15:38 Sunday

Have you considered going with a pair of the Titanics for $350?

**J-Dub** · 15 January 2006, 15:53 Sunday

Thanks Steve, I have read a lot of your posts and your experience is definitely welcome.
And, Thanks again Thomas for all the input and invaluable resources.

Thomas, I will use the plate amp, thanks!
WOW the LT looks like a lot of studying for me I think I will need some help later with this one. I am also assuming that I will have to complete the sub, measure it, then build the LT to spec. Is this correct?

Steve, I think I am going for a single driver sub. When I get my house built I will work on another if needed. I have Highly considered the Dayton Titanic MKIII 15. In fact I was almost done with the design when I found out about the RL-p15. After Thomas' suggestion and viewing the perameters a little more I think I am going to stick with the RL-p15. Have you ever built an LT?

**SteveCallas** · 15 January 2006, 17:34 Sunday

No, I haven't. I prefer the tradeoffs of a ported design over those of a sealed design.

**J-Dub** · 15 January 2006, 18:42 Sunday

No wonder I was getting confused? :banghead:

I just read my first post and realised I diddn't make it clear that I most definately am going with a ported design. I assumed that if I designed the box properly and accounted for room gain (or lack of) that I could tune the box itself for a good flat response all the way down to about 19-20 Hz. I thought Thomas' advise about the LT was to help a little in the 10-20 Hz range. The last sub I built diddn't have an LT and did great. I dont have any tools to measure frequency response but to the ear it did very well.

New question: will I need an LT for a vented design.

**Brian Bunge** · 15 January 2006, 19:01 Sunday

No, an LT circuit is strictly for sealed enclosures.

**KeithM** · 15 January 2006, 19:14 Sunday

LT is solely for sealed boxes that don't go low enough, and here's an easier LT that includes and excel sheet to help build it, just enter your Fc, Qtc, desired Qtc, and desired Fc. IF you go this way, make sure you enter this in WinISD and make sure you won't run out of excursion.

**J-Dub** · 15 January 2006, 19:44 Sunday

Thank You Brian & Keith!

Brian, I have also read many of your posts. It is an honor to have your input on this thread.

Keith, Thanks for the link

Sweet!!! this will save a lot of work! Now I can go about the design for the RL-p15.

How about the FBD? Will I still need one? I diddnt have one on the last sub.

**ThomasW** · 15 January 2006, 19:54 Sunday

How about the FBD? Will I still need one? I diddnt have one on the last sub.

Everyone 'needs' one, IMO....:wink:

**J-Dub** · 15 January 2006, 20:42 Sunday

Thanks Thomas,

I guess I'll get two. If I get one my friend will need one also

Great! now all I need to do is put a stop payment on that $1500 bill I just paid and start buying supplies! J/K :B

OK... any design suggestions?

-I'm thinking of a rectangular box 19-20" wide. depth and height TBD...1.5" thick all the way around. front baffle 2.25" (recessed driver)
-dual 6" ports firing down.(possibly forward at bottom of box) driver facing forward at the top of box.
-Window bracing integrating support for the ports.
-possibly integrate the FBD into the box
-oh and I'd like to find a way to get some attractive handles to move this thing around when needed.

**ThomasW** · 15 January 2006, 21:39 Sunday

OK... any design suggestions?

Copy this for a single 15" you don't need dual 6" ports

http://home.comcast.net/~klone-audio/page30AS-15-1.html

Ben built a version using the BP1503, that driver had some issues so in dropped in a RL-p 15

HTGuide Forum

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=9838

**J-Dub** · 16 January 2006, 20:14 Monday

Thanks Thomas for the links!

The first gave me a lot of inspiration. TBH I havn't read the 2nd one completely. I really like the first and I think I'm going to go with something very similar. Planning on taking vacation in March to start building.

I will work on the plans maybe make a few illustrations and post them to see what you think.

Untill then....Thanks for all the help!

**Bent** · 16 January 2006, 20:22 Monday

No problem on the second link Thomas provided... I'll agree I made it a bit long winded, and it goes off topic a few times.

However, if you have any questions about the build, feel free to ask, I'll watch for them as well.

**J-Dub** · 17 January 2006, 13:42 Tuesday

Thanks a mil, Bent!

I just thoroughly read your thread and am impressed with all that you did. Also got some good take backs of some of the delimas you encountered. Guess I will have to give thanks to you and Thomas both for supplying the thread. What a great resource.

I know you probably ended up building the plate amp into the box but I have to say I am really excited about the idea of building a seperate "case" for the amp. I will sertainly do this! I'm thinking I will build a triangular (more of a polygon due the "tip" can't be pointy) shaped box with something like a 45deg. angle on the top for the amp to fit in. Put some rubber feet and set it on display atop the sub!

. I think I am also going to build the FBD into a seperate compartment integrated in to the top part of the sub. ..All controlls at hand!

**J-Dub** · 17 January 2006, 19:11 Tuesday

OK Guys, This is what I got so far....

SS RL-p15 D2

Qts: .333 Qes: .363 Fs: 23.426 Diam.:330m Vas: 163 SPL:89.43db Sd: .0806m^2 Xmax: 24.6mm

Box: 227 liters/ 8 ft^3 net vol.

single 6" port 20.57" long. tunes to 19.5 Hz

anechoically this design models -3db @ 20 Hz, stays flat till about 40Hz, then gradually climbs to about -1db @ 100Hz. I assume it will hit max excursion @ about 18Hz

I tried to Guesstimate room gain at about 30Hz ???
If this is somewhat accurate it should perform as follows:
+1db @ 18Hz climbing to +3db @ 20Hz, dead even @ 30Hz and -1db @ 40Hz slowly climbing to -.5db @ 100Hz.

Don't know about you guys but I couldn't figure out any ways to get it any tighter than that.

Suggestions would be greatly appreciated...
I'm sure I'm just not getting it.

**ThomasW** · 17 January 2006, 20:10 Tuesday

That's a BIG box, and a fairly high tuning. I'm not sure I understand the logic behind it?

**J-Dub** · 17 January 2006, 20:51 Tuesday

Hey Thomas,

I've been modeling different sized enclosures all day and cant find anything that works well.

At first I started with about 160 liters and different tuning freq's but nothing was looking good till I modeled one at like (forgot vol) tuned to 12 Hz. but it had its probs for sure.Then I did some larger enclosures and things were looking better. The prob. I'm having with lower tuning freq's is that the anechoic response is actually going down. For instance the same box tuned to 16 Hz is about -6Db @ 20 Hz and falling. The upside is that if my predictions about room gain are correct then things look really good down to 10 Hz. I guess whats really bothering me is that I dont know if the room gain is going to perform like I think it will. With that in mind I was trying to find a happy medium between the anechoic and the hypothesized. 16 Hz will give me 32.68" of port and I dont want to go any longer than that. Do you think the room gain will balance out the anechoic modeling?

**ThomasW** · 17 January 2006, 21:14 Tuesday

Here are nearfield vs 4 meter measurements of my small IB sub in the family room. This should give you some idea as to the effects of room gain. The sub is within 24" of the front wall so it gets boundry loading from it.

**J-Dub** · 18 January 2006, 13:04 Wednesday

Thank You Thomas that does help. Wow it seems your IB is catching about 17db gain @ 16Hz and about 15 db @ 25Hz! What it the size of your listening room?

On your AS-15 If I'm not mistaken you ended up with a NET Vol of 179 liters/ 6.3 ft^3. Port at 22.5" = 21.2Hz tuning.

Gross box = 7 ft ^3
- .3 ft^3 for port
- .2 ft^3 for bracing
- .2 ft^3 for driver

= net vol approx 6.3 ft^3 Tuned to 21.2 Hz approximately

Is this correct or am I missing something?

**ThomasW** · 18 January 2006, 13:12 Wednesday

The room is 13'X18' with cathedral ceiling, back of the room is open to kitchen.

The target tuning for the AS-15 is 18Hz, the measured tuning came out 18.56Hz. If I were building it today I'd probably use 15Hz and recommend you do that.

**J-Dub** · 18 January 2006, 13:21 Wednesday

Awesome!,

Ill do my best to fit that length of port in there somewhere

I could do 6.3 ft^3 net with two 3" ports @ 24.5" to achieve 15Hz but 3" ports scare me.. modeling doesn't look bad but what about chuffing?

**J-Dub** · 18 January 2006, 14:36 Wednesday

OK I think I got it!! :B

199 Liters / 7 ft^3 with three 3" ports @ 33.89" = 15Hz

Three ports should be enough to buffer any chuffing.

Whaddaya think??

**James W. Johnson** · 18 January 2006, 17:41 Wednesday

What is the displacement of one of these vs a DAYTON RSS315HF-4 12"?

I might go with a single Rl-p15 instead of dual RSS315HFs.....though I noticed Soundsplinter is out of the dual 2ohm drivers. Anyone know when these will be in stock again?

While I am at it, are either of these drivers good for a downfiring configuration?

I though Ascendant Audio was going to get some new drivers in?

**ThomasW** · 18 January 2006, 18:47 Wednesday

Whaddaya think??

I think in a couple weeks your box modeling skills are going to be pretty good...:wink:

Personally I'm not a fan of smallish ports (even using several) with higher excursion 15" drivers. My preference is a single 6" port, even if you use plain old straight piece of PVC or ABS pipe.

However if 6" diameter won't fit in your box, then go with whatever works.

What is the displacement of one of these vs a DAYTON RSS315HF-4 12"?

Vd=(Xmax*2)*Sd

The word is a month+ on the RL-p from SS. Kyle at Acoustic-Visions.com may have some. He charges $15 more than SS.

Ascendant has some new drivers on their website, other are coming in a month or two.

**J-Dub** · 18 January 2006, 19:53 Wednesday

Thanks Thomas,

The only way I can figure to get a 6" port in there is to make the box taller than it is long. Honestly this is what I originally wanted to accomplish with this sub.

Is there a Problem firing the driver forward and having the port fire out the bottom?

If not I think my box designing problems are over.
I dont really mind having a large volume or heavy weight box as long as it doesn't go much deeper than 3'. However, it can be 5' tall and wouldn't bother me a bit.

I think in a couple weeks your box modeling skills are going to be pretty good...

I'll take that as a compliment :B

Ohh... BTW I would like to use 6" port instead of 3" as I have about 7' of it at home.

**ThomasW** · 18 January 2006, 20:01 Wednesday

I'll take that as a compliment

It was intended as such.... :T

Is there a Problem firing the driver forward and having the port fire out the bottom?

Either that or the reverse is fine. Plan on using a bottom plate with either configuration

**J-Dub** · 18 January 2006, 20:15 Wednesday

YESssss!
Now I am finally getting somewhere! :dancenana:

Thomas I know I have probably said it enough but I really do appreciate all of you help. It takes a truly good person to get on here and help all of us newbies out. I can't imagine how many times you have been asked the same questions over and over again. 8O Thanks again for your patience.

Well, I''l be out of the office till Sat. No internet at home. So untill then everyone!

**James W. Johnson** · 19 January 2006, 18:22 Thursday

Originally posted by ThomasW

Vd=(Xmax*2)*Sd

The word is a month+ on the RL-p from SS. Kyle at Acoustic-Visions.com may have some. He charges $15 more than SS.

Ascendant has some new drivers on their website, other are coming in a month or two.

thanks, youd figure a guy like me who has been around would already know that...I am soo lazy.

ops:
I just like to research the drivers , look around for some experience with the drivers, then model something based on what I want and what the driver sounds/works best in.

I still would kinda like to find some really low FS drivers just so I dont have to EQ so much. I never really did care for those Blueprint 1803s ...cannot quite put my finger on it...there were clean and everything but never sounded as good as a simple ported Tempest.

My favorite subwoofer to date was my last dual Tempest sonotube..damn that thing rocked and sounded great.

Frankly id love to get my paws on a pair of Tempests again. :cry:

**ThomasW** · 19 January 2006, 18:55 Thursday

Frankly id love to get my paws on a pair of Tempests again

Look at the Parts Express DVC-15"s. Very close to the original Tempests

**Scott Simonian** · 19 January 2006, 19:00 Thursday

Im still wanting to grab some of those DVCs to drop in that horn-loaded Tempest cab that Adire published.

Rl-p15 or Dayton Titanic MKIII 15

Rl-p15 or Dayton Titanic MKIII 15

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