DynAudio Evidence Master clone:WWMTMWW

[agrippa]

This is my first post here:
Here is my experience with DIY in a nut shell: I have built or helped build: 2 subwoofers, 12 pairs of speakers (mostly easy, cheap ones), rebuilt 3 sets of manufactured speakers, and I am currently working on 3 sets of small (really small) and cheap speakers. My strong points are complex cabinet work & finishing and building timber frame buildings (ok not applicable here). I can read a x-over diagram and build one but I am still not over confident in designing one with out advise and software(I have no software). I have Vance Dickason's cookbook (I don’t understand it all though ) and David Weem's loud speaker book. Also, I have taught 3 high school classes on basic speaker construction as part of industrial arts.

O.K. So here it goes: Starting last year I began to explore the Ultimate speaker project, that I label the X-1, when another experienced DIY guy talked me into building DynAudio Evidence Master clones (originally I was looking at Triangle Magellan Concerto clones). He would do the x-over design. Very cool. By the way he has finished and I have yet to start. The Graphs look great and I guess they sound fantastic. He is going to be posting it at parts express with pics and all in a few weeks. He used a WWMTMWW design with RS225s, RS125s and Morel supreme 110's.

Now my problem: I have some cold feet and 8 RS225s sitting in our loft. I could go ahead with the Masters as my friend on the net did. But they are SO HUGE and may be overkill for my room, I want the big speakers as most of mine are 2 way book shelves. I could go back to my TMWWW or MTMWWW idea and use the other 2 8’s for something else. Both designs are wife approved. The Wife plays several instruments and believes that speakers should reproduce sound without much color and should be crystal clear. Both of us don’t mind if a speaker reveals the bumps and warts of a recording.

More info:
My listening room options:
1. (wife preferred) 12’x35’ with a 8’ ceiling
2. 15’x22’ with a vaulted ceiling.

Music Tastes:
We listen to classical(organ music of Bach are part of my drive here), jazz, acoustic, folk, new age, and classic rock and classic country (Johny Cash)

My Question: If I where to go ahead with the TMWWW or MTMWWW (both ported) I would like some help with some things:
1. Selection of Mids and Tweeters selection:
The mids: I want a top notch mid that is clear and accurate and that isn’t insane in price( $20-$100 or so range). Oh it has to look good… I don’t want a dome. Here are some I have looked at :
Seas MCA11FC, Seas M15, seas M15A15, Seas W15, Davis Acoustics 17KLV 6 1/2" ( I know little about it but it looks good on paper), Eton's 25Hex 4" (has some good numbers but is a bit costly). Dayton RS125 and RS 150. I also am looking a few others from Morel, Focal, Peerless, Scan speak, Davis, Seas, and Vifa. :gah: too MANY. Please help me narrow it down to about 2 or 3.

Tweeters: I have looked at Hiquphons, Scan speak 9500 and 9700, Vifa XT25TG, Eton’s 25SD-1, Seas higher end stuff, as well as Morels Higher end stuff. Again please help me narrow it down to 2 or 3.

2. X-over: Once the mids and tweeters have been chosen I would like input on this.

3. Box Design… What ever it is I can build it… I have accesses to metal mills , and computer controlled routers. I also have time, I have summers off. The plan is to finalize everything by this spring and build this summer.


I have lurked here for some time and have read many of your topics here. There seems to be some real talent here. Also, People here seem both helpful and enthusiastic:banana:. I would appreciate any input or help you can give me.
Thank You

[cjd]

IMHO:

3 woofers in this case may be not so nice to your amplification, and may also be somewhat difficult as far as sensitivity matching.

4 woofers will be the same sensitivity offerings as a pair of woofers, but more power handling. This will be beneficial if you're going sealed. You may be able to get away with rear-firing one or two of the woofers.

This all is if you're dead set on the RS225's.

Have you read through the RS 3-way thread at all? It may give you some things to think about. Certainly encapsulates many of my thoughts regarding larger systems like this. RS270/RS180/RS28A WWMTM if you've not. My music tastes are right in line with yours. These survive Mahler's 8th at excessive volume levels and still keep everything where it's supposed to be (no disappearing violins, which is something I've heard [or not heard] on some reportedly very good systems).

Mids, with the RS225 the RS150 or RS125 is a great match. The Seas metal cone drivers in your list would also do very well. Not sure on the others, but my gut tells me to try to maintain driver materials across the line through the critical midrange frequencies. May depend on your tweeter choice - around here, the budget Seas (27TDFC or 27TBFC/G) and the RS28A are frequent choices and unquestionably top performers. IMHO you can spend money other places than more expensive tweeters compared to these and get more improvement.

On crossover help - do you have access to measurement equipment? Without live measurements, a system like this is just too risky IMHO - I tried on the 3-ways mentioned above and realized it was NOT going to work right - correctly so. If you can share accurate measurements it will be easier to find folks interested in giving things a whirl as far as working up crossover designs.

Box design - your available options make me drool. What kind of design tastes do you have? What kinds of instruments around the house? And, what kind of area do you have to give these speakers room to live?

Though... if I may be so bold, I think that your musical tastes are *really* screaming for a top notch dipole system and an IB sub - if IB isn't workable, some very good sealed units. That could work exceedingly well in your 12x35x8 room placing the speakers on a 12' wall and closer to the side walls.

RS225's are a very likely candidate for me in one of my later-on projects as a lower midbass driver in a dipole. These won't be entirely tiny though I think. Time (not to mention space and even budget considerations) is against me getting there in the next month or two, but maybe, maybe, this spring.

C

[ThomasW]

There no way to know about all the options you propose without buying the drivers and testing them. That's expensive, and time consuming. And if you find something you like you're going to need to hire someone to design the XO, because no one will have created a design with the components you choose.

So why not cut the complexity and angst?

Do a MTM sitting on a double woofer bass bin. Copy Jon's modula MTM design, then use an active XO for the bass bin.

[agrippa]

I will clarify a few things.

to answer cjd

1. I allready own 8 RS 225s.
2. I will focus on the Rs 150, rs 125 and Seas mid ranges.
3. Measuring equipment. I will look into it and I am going to get some software. I need to figure out what is best though.
4. A co-worker's spouce has 30 years teaching Industrial tech at the local college and can mill anything i need for cost. Also, a friend works with at a place with a computerized router... I can use it cheap. Finally I work in a High school shop and I have my own 2 story 16x32 shop with the good stuff... I am a serious builder of stuff who wants a pair of really good speakers. I have many pairs of Ok speakers.
5. size 7' foot speakers are a bit scary... I still may go with the wwmtmww.
6. I had been looking at Linn Olsons Ariel with some bass boxs or subs.

ThomasW

Not a bad idea with the bass bin... i will look at it. What about a 4 woofer per side Bass bin

[GrahamT]

Since you already have the 8 woofers, maybe you can build 2 isobaric bass bins? Thomas would know if that would work.

Then throw a pair of NataliePs or Modula MTMs on top.

[Paul H]

Another idea - you've got the drivers to build a nice dipole. Don't design a crossover - use a behringer active crossover. A search on the forum here will turn up some good and simple designs.

The box (baffle actually) can be simple or exotic, depending on your tastes.

Paul

[ThomasW]

Yes you can build a 4 driver bass bin, but is will be large unless you make it isobaric...

[agrippa]

My wife dosn't like the Dipole look. I figure I need wife approval on this one considerring that she will let me build a pair of 7 foot speakers and spend a butt load of money.
By the way here is a link to some pics of that wwmtmww

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2124956375&code=19597067&mode=invite&DCMP=isc-email-AlbumInvite

I hope that works. it may not.

Rear firing some woofers would work. How about side firing?

[cjd]

Give me some time and I'll see what I can whip up concept-wise that may pass approval. May not be WWMTMWW. We'll see. It may at least get the thoughts flowing in your head. Should be fun for me, regardless.

Dipole can be made to look normal, for whatever that is worth. IT may not be a full cabinet, but you can use grill cloth to hide the uglies on the back side. Could really have fun with patterning and sewing different colors of cloth, even.

Also, given the extent to which there is *really* deep bass in the music you listen to, going sealed + sub may be a better option, regardless.

C

[Paul H]

Rear firing some woofers would work. How about side firing?

With the speaker setup you're talking about I'd be crossing the woofers high enough that side-firing wouldn't work as well.

Personally I see side-firing as a compromise that's only necessary to help keep the speakers smaller - if you're going for 7 footers 'small' wouldn't appear to be a priority.

Paul

[AJINFLA]

Forgive me for asking, I'm a big idiot, but what does a dipole "look" like? :scratchhead:







and of course :W



No matter how many, or where/how you arrange drivers in a box, there can still only be one outcome. Box sound. If ultimate "box sound"/box look is your desire, you are probably on the right track. I try to go to the hi end salons once in a while to hear what the ultimate boxes (like the Dyn) are sounding like these days. Not much has changed. Good luck with your project.

Cheers,

AJ

p.s., how do you "clone" a Dynaudio with Dayton metal cone drivers? :scratchhead:

[oneoldude]

Here are a couple great examples with instructions on how to build them too.

First the Arvo Part right in this forum by Jon: http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=7644

and then the Orion by Sig Linkwitz: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/

[TacoD]

There no way to know about all the options you propose without buying the drivers and testing them. That's expensive, and time consuming. And if you find something you like you're going to need to hire someone to design the XO, because no one will have created a design with the components you choose.

So why not cut the complexity and angst?

Do a MTM sitting on a double woofer bass bin. Copy Jon's modula MTM design, then use an active XO for the bass bin.

I totally agree with Thomas, it's fool proof and the hard design work is done by a pro... Otherwise you need to measure, but more important you also need to know how to measure and to do an x-over.

Taco

[agrippa]

clone is a bad way of putting it. Rather a guide for how they should look.

Forgive my ignorance (i used to work in a middle end stereo store), but I have never heard a Dipole... I live 5 hours from a store that would carry one. I live near the canadian border in northern minnesota. However, I am going to Minneapolis today of all days(for a couple more)... to shop with the family. Maybe I can get a detour to hear one.

What is the difference in "Box sound" and dipole? Most seem to build boxes here. Is Dipole more difficult?
Thanks for helping me think about it more.

[cjd]

What is the difference in "Box sound" and dipole? Most seem to build boxes here. Is Dipole more difficult?

Dipole is more expensive to get the same kind of frequency response on the bottom simply because it just takes excursion - LOTS of excursion. Or lots of drivers. And in general, it takes some EQ. It is also a flavor - many really like it, but some don't care for it as much.

The advantage in your case would be the ability to be placed near a side wall with fewer reflection issues. Many of us really like the open sound of dipole.

And, it is probably a bit more difficult to accurately measure and really get right, but maybe not. I've only done really cheap dipoles so far ($10 for the pair).

Thing is, with 8 RS225's you have a healthy start. Add bass bin, some midrange and top end, you're set. A waveguide + normal monopole tweeter may be the perfect solution here, use the 225's as mids, cross to, say, some RS315HF for bass, and some box subs (or IB) for the really low stuff. :mrgreen:

Understand that some folks here are going to point you at a solution that is probably ideal, some us will freewheel ideas till you say "STOP!"

C

[agrippa]

Well, I went with the 8"s because I wanted a slim box and the bass numbers looked good. All my experience is with Box design... I love the woodworking aspect of building them... Dipole wwas never in my head as I knew nothing about it other than looking at Linkwitz's and saying "hmmmm wierd".

Leaving in about 2 hours for the big city and I will be back Tuesday. Hopefully i will have some more ideas.
thanks

[JonMarsh]

For an idea of what a moderate size dipole can do, check out these reviews of the Orion, probably the best known and quoted DIY dipole design on the 'net. Linkwitze is known also for his earlier designs for Audio Artistry, which inspired me with regards to the various Arvo configurations; if I remember right, it was the same month or week that I posted here for the first Arvo configuration and Linkwitz issued the Orion challenge, before posting details of that design.

Sensible Sound Review PDF


Audio Critic Orion Review at Linkwitz Lab



While I have done many closed box and TL and ported designs, my favorite systems and "high end" designs are dipole. YMMV. But the requirements for lower mid and bass excursion are high, so they're not low cost. But they sure sound sweet if done right.

BTW, my only beef with the Audio Critic review is in his closing remarks, where he likens the Scientific American to being a definitive journal- regrettably, that's not the case, and they don't do anywhere near the comprehensive peer review of publications like the IEEE Spectrum and various society journals. As a result, I HAVE seen articles in the Scientific American which were inadequately reviewed and rather incomplete on topics in fields in which I'm knowledgable (semiconductor physics and power engineering).




~Jon

[oneoldude]

agrippa,

FWIW

If conventional looks are important, you can make a dipole look almost like anyting you want with framing covered with grill cloth. Imagination and a designer's eye is required.

I doubt you will find any full range dipoles using conventional drivers at your local Hi-Fi or High End shop. You may find electrostatic dipoles (Martin Logan), and there are similarities, but the comparison between them and one with conventional drivers is like comparing grapes and grapefruit.

It is simple to discover if dipoles are for you. You can build a simple woofer box and a simple mid tweet panel out of scrap material and drivers you have on hand (see the Linkwitz site for pointers). Then listen to them. Don't play them too loud as they will not be a truly completed design. They do not have to be perfectly flat or professionally designed for this test. When you listen you should hear a significant difference between "box" sound and "open baffle dipole" sound. The bass should be more realistic (little or no hangover or boom) and the midrange more alive and clean. When you complete the test, you should be sensing some heat from a burning bush nearby. If not, go with a closed box design.

While no speaker sounds its best up against a wall, a dipole CAN NOT be placed against the front wall and work properly.

Most dipoles cannot play as loud as a smiliarly expensive box design. So if you are a head banger, box design may be the way to go unless you go with an excellent dipole design (like the Arvo) and include a subwoofer or two.

Dipoles are particularly difficult to get sorted out by a beginner. But for a beginner, it is also very difficult to perfect a box speaker. Your best bet is to go with an established design that has been tested and perfected by the likes of Jon, Linkwitz and their like.

In the meantime, have fun and learn.

[cjd]

While no speaker sounds its best up against a wall, a dipole CAN NOT be placed against the front wall and work properly.

Most dipoles cannot play as loud as a smiliarly expensive box design. So if you are a head banger, box design may be the way to go unless you go with an excellent dipole design (like the Arvo) and include a subwoofer or two.

The reason I made the dipole comment was his preferred room is 12x35 - seems likely that there can be space behind, but less easily to the side. 12' is short for ideal placement no matter what.

And, he commented about music choices, something I also considered when suggesting dipole.

We listen to classical(organ music of Bach are part of my drive here), jazz, acoustic, folk, new age, and classic rock and classic country (Johny Cash)

Very similar to much of what I listen to, though I pretty much can't take anything country at all. :P VERY much music that can take on a whole new dimension with a good dipole setup.

C

[AJINFLA]

The Bucs are getting their a***s handed to them by the Pats so I might as well post.
Agrippa, please don't let my comments dissuade you from pursuing a box design, its just your comments about the looks that convinced me that you are not familiar with the type of dipoles that many here on this board use.
Just to clarify, we are not talking about the type of dipoles you can hear in a store near you. Those are probably planar types (ribbons,etc). Martin Logan, Magnepan,etc.
All of the pics I showed you are dynamic driver designs. They have the openess and (boxless) clarity of the planars, but superior dynamics and polar response (well, at least I hope so :W ).
If a large monolith look is your desire (like the Dyn), a box design is certainly one option. Another would be something like monty's design. Use 2 of your 8's in the bottom H and add a second H at the top with the other 2 8's.
A DCX would be necessary. That of course adds to the complexity - which is why a box design may not be a bad idea. Its all about compromise. Whatever you feel is best.

http://www.mfk-projects.com/rs_dipole.htm

Cheers,

AJ

p.s. like many here, I went dynamic dipole after about 20yrs of box and planar speakers - too many to mention.

[JonMarsh]

you might be surprised, Chris, at how good Alison Krause sounds on dipoles... what a good dipole system does for vocals is substantial, and what's country about other than vocals? Of course, Alison is Bluegrass, not really "country".

Her hybrid SACD's sound great, though.

[AJINFLA]

Oh yes,

I forgot to mention that I listen to everything that you do (including country) and much more (reggae/hip-hop/metal,etc,etc,etc - you name it)

Cheers,

AJ

[Paul H]

you might be surprised, Chris, at how good Alison Krause sounds on dipoles... what a good dipole system does for vocals is substantial, ...

I absolutely agree. :T

Paul

[agrippa]

No Dipole

I was unable to go to a high end store this Sunday as it was closed. SO I went to some other stores and listened to what they had. Most of it was Paradigm, B&W, Boston A, Martin Logan, and a few others in that class... nothing new to report here. I do like the sound of Martin logan but hate the looks... I understand that a true dipole that I would make would look much different. Also, I read up on dipole a bit and I thnk I now know what some of you are talking about... Box = boom. An exagerated bass. Even a good box has some boom. Does that sum it up.

Ok the room thing. I should explain that allthough the room is long and More or L shaped the speakers would be relatively close to the wall... 1-2 feet. The room (12x32 roughly) is split into 2 sections: It is all open though one side which is closer to 20' in width is a recreation area (Bar, pool table, dart board). The other part is where a couch a 2 chair will be along with the stereo/speakers. This area is about 12x16 but is still wide open to the rest.

Also, These babies could go in our Great room which has a vaulted ceiling.

I am going to do some serious speaker design exploration this Christmas break. Being a teacher has some advantages My thoughts are now a either a wwmtmww or a mtm with bass box or a mtmww or some sort of diapole.

As a side I am trying to set up a field trip to Magnepan's factory for my class. An overnight trip. 8O

[agrippa]

last post has bad title

last post has bad title. It should say I found no dipoles in stores other than Martin Logan

[oneoldude]

Box = Boom?

Well, yes. One problem is many box designs are such that they measure flat in an anechoic chamber. Then when placed in a room there is an unavoidable room lift than creates part of the boom or overhang in sound. This problem can be overcome to some degree by tuning the box not to be flat in an anechoic chamber. Rather the bass level should drift down in such a manner as to be complementary with the room lift. Jon does this in his designs and it helps a lot.

There are other problems like box resonances, radiation pattern, effective radiated power, excitement of room nodes, and proper placement that cannot be completely "fixed" with box designs.

Dipoles must also be designed to accomodate room lift but are by their very nature better at handling the other problems. Also, since there is no box, box resonances do not exist.

But, as I said above, you cannot put a dipole close to a wall and get it to work properly. The rest of the guys here can give their opinion as to how close is too close. But if you have the room, a dipole is the way to go. Especially if you will have a sub to go with it.

[cjd]

oneolddude: I believe it's the *rear* wall (i.e. the wall behind) that's more critical than the side walls, though of course space all around is ideal. And vs. box speakers, you can get *closer* to side walls with a dipole. I think I have that right.

Jon: re: country - it's not the music, it's what I look for and enjoy in music. I'm a texture kind of guy - have to be able to run my hands over the music. Probably why I'm more the 3d type artist, and prefer drawing over painting even (it's just more immediate, more physical). Country is (often bad) poetry with twang.

C

[Dennis H]

Bad poetry? How could it get any better than this? :B :B :B

Just two good old boys
Never meanin' no harm
Beats all you never saw
Been in trouble with the law
Since the day they was born

Seriously though, I've come to like some country stuff in recent years. The instrumentals are like what blues-rock used to be back in a simpler age....

[exipnos]

oneolddude: I believe it's the *rear* wall (i.e. the wall behind) that's more critical than the side walls, though of course space all around is ideal. And vs. box speakers, you can get *closer* to side walls with a dipole. I think I have that right.
C

Can you expand a bit on the dipole placement. What is the minimum space necessary behind the speaker? If you treat the whole wall behind the speaker will space requirements lower? If so would 2ft of space be enough?

Side walls - Most dipole threads I read are all about stereo. What if you had dipole surrounds. How would they be placed? Can they be against the wall with the woofers facing the front and back of the room? Or do they have to be away from the side wall facing the listener?

Thanks.

[Paul H]

... The rest of the guys here can give their opinion as to how close is too close. But if you have the room, a dipole is the way to go. ...

My terrifically informal and non-scientific testing of space requirements for dipoles involved moving the speakers around and listening - no small task, moving those speakers ..

In simple terms, when they were placed 18" out from the back wall I felt they were sort of 'smeared', but that disappeared at anything over 24" from the back wall. If I had the space I'd probably have them 36"+ from the back wall, but they're at approximately 30" now because that comfortably fits in the room and they sound great.

Paul

[AJINFLA]

Not wanting to drag some of the newbies down into the depths of (my) audiophile madness, but here is where and why you want to place your dipoles: http://www.linkwitzlab.com/faq.htm#Q31
Attempting to build a (open baffle) dipole without reading this site 20 times is a cardinal sin :W .
Essentialy, moving the dipole out from the wall (behind the speaker) increases the time (reaching your ears) between the primary (front, direct from the drivers) signal and the secondary (rear) reflected signal, so that your ears/brain no longer perceive it as part of the original (which would "smear" the signal), but more like ambience, the way you would hear real sounds (insruments,etc) in a real (reflective) room. Or something like that .

http://www.linkwitzlab.com/rooms.htm#rear%20radiation

Cheers,

AJ

FYI, Agrippa, all the pics in my post above are open baffle, dynamic driver dipoles. Finding something like that in a store is highly unlikely. Gradient if you're lucky.

[agrippa]

Johny Cash has more Bass than most hip-hop. Really.

That aside, as I read more and more about Dipole I begin to warm up to the idea in part. One reason, and this may seem funny to you, is that I don't need to use MDF or Plywood. At least for a good portion of it. I have piles of ash, maple, oak, and few exotics lying around that could be used instead of veneering mdf/plywood. I love working with real wood.

I noticed this design on one of my favorite DIY web pages http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Diary_concept.html

Tony is a top notch DIY speaker builder/designer. This speaker he names the "progress" has some attraction for me. This link here is one that connects to his concept/design page. I like some of his concepts better.

I would like to post some rough ideas some time: How do I post pics on here?

[ThomasW]

I would like to post some rough ideas some time: How do I post pics on here?

If you don't have a hosting service, you can attach pictures to your posts. It's an "Additional Option" below the box where you type in the text of a post

[agrippa]

ok. I also could post them on my web page and link it

I am having too many ideas. I will try and narrow it down

[cjd]

oI am having too many ideas. I will try and narrow it down

Only do that when you're ready. Otherwise, just keep having ideas.

Often, the best ideas result from discussion of other ideas.

C

[Owen Bartley]

By the way here is a link to some pics of that wwmtmww

http://www.imagestation.com/album/pictures.html?id=2124956375&code=19597067&mode=invite&DCMP=isc-email-AlbumInvite

Wow, you've got a ton of choices here, and I'm the first to admit that this level of design/execution is beyond me, but I thought these speakers were beautiful. I'm more of a box person, probably since I haven't heard good dipoles, but I think it would be hard to go very wrong with any of these suggestions, unless you have a specific "flavour" of sound in mind. Either way, good luck with the project, and be sure to keep us updated, and most importantly, show us lots of pics when you do get going!

[David Meek]

One reason, and this may seem funny to you, is that I don't need to use MDF or Plywood. At least for a good portion of it. I have piles of ash, maple, oak, and few exotics lying around that could be used instead of veneering mdf/plywood. I love working with real wood.

Something to consider here is that one of the benefits of using MDF is that it is much, much more sonically inert than "real" wood. And, sonically inert cabinetry = good.