List your next 3-way concept

**JonMarsh** · 21 October 2005, 10:45 Friday

well, just to kick things off, I'll mention my current underway unfinished projects-

1) Arvo Part- FINAL driver evaluations should be completed in three weeks or so- up on the board is shootout between RS28a and Seas H1212 for tweeter duties, Peerless Nomex Exclusive 8830884 vs Seas W22 vs the defending underdog for budget priced systems, the M8a (could throw in the RS225 just to confuse things, but it won't cross high enough)(measure it in detail, anyway?); Woofer shoot out between TC2+ and RS315HF.

2) X1 MiniMaxx - this is a "downsizing" of the X1 Klones, new bass cabinets, drivers may be TC2+, or RS315HF, or RS265HF, depending on performance, integration issues, and resulting size. Mids will be converted from Eton 370 to Nomex Exclusive 830883, in all likelihood (if the latter are ever back in stock), otherwise I may have to pony up to W18. I'd like to keep the Focal Tc120td2, but I will measure it also; I don't expect I can cross it below 1800, which makes me not favor the RS180 (ETC plots). Any other 7" candidates with a pedigree?

3) Saint Saens Line array dipole... Tweeter is Fountek JP2 array of 8 each side, midrange is B&G RD50, and woofers will probably be 6x RS265HF each side, pending measurement results. Will also measure some RS270s for comparison.

4) Dawaro has inspired me with his CT RS design efforts, so I'm probably going to re-visit the cabinet/baffle design, see if there's any possibilit of tweaking up the acoustical behavior, then do a crossover similar to my proposal to him, based on the basic Arvo Part topology. Dual RS225 woofers, RS150 mid, RS28a tweeter. (I've got six of those, need to do some fun things with them).

And I've made some commitments to investigate some three way possibilities in smaller systems, most with RS drivers again. Plus, there's the germinating idea for the "Iris", a new Avalon Klone project (don't want to get rusty in my wood working skills, eh?) The driver selection for the Iris is uncertain, but I am leaning towards the RS265HF for the woofers, instead of the Eton used by Avalon. Other component choices are under evaluation, and given my past experience with Accuton, they haven't been ruled out, but will be evaluated carefully...

After that, it's time to go back to electronics for a while, and finish the AragonX project.

~Jon

**JoshK** · 21 October 2005, 11:14 Friday

I am really interested in your #1 Jon, selfishly so since I am doing the same.

**cjd** · 21 October 2005, 12:50 Friday

Well, let's see...

I have a matched pair of OW1's from winning the Budget category at Chicago Audiofest to play with. At the moment, I'm a bit at a loss for what to use them with, but I'm absolutely sold on doing a 3-way. I have some thoughts, some of them vaguely interesting.

I'm open to driver suggestions.

I have to do some HT stuff - probably smaller 3-way cabinets - something like TMWW's with RS125's and RS180's in the mid/woof spots. Plus surround cabs to tuck in the wall/ceiling corners (which is what I need in my HT as well as my dad, and I owe him some speakers).

From there, I'm looking at some open baffle work - it will most likely be 4-way (or 5-way). This needs more experimentation.

But, the season for woodworking is winding down around here, and the season for sticking in-doors and doing electronics is just around the corner. Amp projects!

C

**TacoD** · 21 October 2005, 14:33 Friday

#1) just wrapping up a 3-way consisting of Scanspeak 7000 as tweeter, Audiotechnology C-quenze 15H as mid and (old) Scanspeak 8550 (paper/carbon). A friend was struggling with the x-over, so I offered some help.

#2)my own 3-way, as tweeter Raidho FFT 75 (as used in www.eben.dk) and also Audiotechnology for mid duties. This time it is a C-quenze 18H with custom underhung motor assembly and kapton former. For the bass an Eton 11-581/50 HEX.

#3)also for a friend, 3-way with Dayton planar, Audax HM130CO (carbon), 12" Vifa paper/carbon on the bass.

Do I have expensive taste, maybe, but for me it's still a bargain compared to commercial stuff. I am also experimenting with Dayton RS180 paired with Scanspeak 9800, this makes a nice speaker but it misses resolution compared to system #1 and #2. The textures/ room information is not there, it is no match for Seas Excell, but hey for the price it's unbeatable. And a lot of other 2-ways... (Seas, Audax).

**Paul H** · 21 October 2005, 19:48 Friday

Centre channel - horizontal wmtw - passive crossover - dipole, designed for crossover to sub at 60-80 Hz.

I'll be using W18EX mid and SS 9500/9700 tweet (both to match my mains) and 10" or 12" woofers - to be determined, could be Seas L26, or possibly 12" dayton reference, or something else.

This will go under a pj screen - it will likely be larger than a typical centre, because it can be (space is available) and the dipole will require a decent baffle to extend the bass.

Paul

**KeithM** · 21 October 2005, 20:22 Friday

next "3-way" project is my mtm middle speaker box redesign. I really messed up on the woodworking and it looks awful.

But a whole speaker project I may do some time(when I have money that is) would be a sealed 3-way with the RS drivers(8"), an undecided mid, and an undecided tweeter. As you can see, I'm not very far into it yet.

**Doug Lockwood** · 21 October 2005, 22:53 Friday

I have built the test baffle fir a 3 way Open Baffle.
B&G NEO3 sans back cup, SEAS MP14RCY/P and dual RS270.
All Actively crossed with a DCX2496.

I am breaking in the drivers and doing measurements before I make many more decisions.

If it’s better than the Prototype, it will be fun. :T

**thylantyr** · 22 October 2005, 01:39 Saturday

.. nuked :twisted:

**cinema bob** · 22 October 2005, 01:54 Saturday

i'm really intrested in jons #2 right now.

**jdybnis** · 22 October 2005, 02:40 Saturday

The little circles are NSB's right? jk

**sturebjorvig** · 22 October 2005, 08:07 Saturday

I am also interested in Jon's #2 design, plus I would like to build something similar to the picture below, which shows a new Norwegian design using Seas woofers and mids, in an aluminum cabinet. I would of course build it out of some kind of wood.

Sture

Attached Files

**thylantyr** · 22 October 2005, 13:37 Saturday

... nuked :twisted:

**Jed** · 22 October 2005, 17:44 Saturday

Originally posted by cjd

Well, let's see...

I have a matched pair of OW1's from winning the Budget category at Chicago Audiofest to play with. At the moment, I'm a bit at a loss for what to use them with, but I'm absolutely sold on doing a 3-way. I have some thoughts, some of them vaguely interesting.

I'm open to driver suggestions.

C

OW1 + Peerless Exclusive 4 or 5" midrange or midranges+ RS10 or 12" subwoofers or TC Sounds 10 or 12" single voice coil woofer. Could do WWMTM or WMT formats.

OW1 + Peerless Exclusive 5" + Dual 8" Exclusive WWMT in a modular dual box design.

OW1 + Scan 12M mid + 8565 01 (DLR at madisound it doing this one)

I'm working on

OW1 + W15CH seas + W22EX (woofer might be weak link- oh well, I have them so might as well stick to the plan).

**tktran** · 22 October 2005, 21:10 Saturday

Hi Jon,

The Peerless 830833 and 830834 are still available from Madisound-

Compare:

https://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?keywords=peerless

with

https://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?exact_match=yes&product=PEW&cart_id=2778543.26521

I find that there's a disreprancy between their "Catalogue->Peerless" pages and their "Online Shopping->Peerless" pages.

Sometimes it's listed in one but not the other. Makes it very confusing. I still place orders via email, or phonecall to check current stock.

regards,
Thanh

**Jed** · 22 October 2005, 22:23 Saturday

Taco or anyone,

Do you have experience with seas W26 yet? I'm just wondering how it compares to eton 11". It should have more output and lower distortion than eton I would think. Just wondering if the W26 is worth the cost. I chose the W22 and want to port it in a 50L box with an F3 around 30HZ. If I used the W26, I'd try it in a 70L sealed box, but F3 I would say is around 40HZ. The W22 excel was recommended to me- but I'm thinking of trying another woofer for bass but cross around 300HZ, which eliminates some "subwoofers" for 3 way bass duty.

**cinema bob** · 22 October 2005, 23:05 Saturday

though I love the speakers that sturebjorvig posted (anybody have a brand-name?) I am really stoked on the idea of these speakers.

HugeDomains.com

http://www.exquisiteaudio.com/maxx.html

I was planning to put something like this In my home theater, because my wife doesn't care what the speakers look like in there. however she is really digging the maxxes and says that she wouldn't mind them in our Library/Listening room. so i might be able to have them on display.

I have been looking at the seas drivers, on the recommendation of jon marsh, for the top module and dayton rs10's for the bass bins.

**Paul H** · 22 October 2005, 23:19 Saturday

Originally posted by Jed

Taco or anyone,

Do you have experience with seas W26 yet? I'm just wondering how it compares to eton 11". It should have more output and lower distortion than eton I would think. Just wondering if the W26 is worth the cost. I chose the W22 and want to port it in a 50L box with an F3 around 30HZ. If I used the W26, I'd try it in a 70L sealed box, but F3 I would say is around 40HZ. The W22 excel was recommended to me- but I'm thinking of trying another woofer for bass but cross around 300HZ, which eliminates some "subwoofers" for 3 way bass duty.

I suggest that you should have a very serious look at the much less expensive L26 before buying W26 - put the response graphs, specs, etc side by side - they're very similar, except the price.

Paul

**thylantyr** · 22 October 2005, 23:45 Saturday

The W22 excel was recommended to me

Not ideal for a 3 way design. If you can go 12" or 15"
and can afford $500 for two woofers, I got the ideal 3 way
woofer suggestion for you. PM if interested.

**JonMarsh** · 22 October 2005, 23:47 Saturday

Originally posted by tktran

Hi Jon,

The Peerless 830833 and 830834 are still available from Madisound-

Compare:

https://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?keywords=peerless

with

https://www.madisound.com/cgi-bin/index.cgi?exact_match=yes&product=PEW&cart_id=2778543.26521

I find that there's a disreprancy between their "Catalogue->Peerless" pages and their "Online Shopping->Peerless" pages.

Sometimes it's listed in one but not the other. Makes it very confusing. I still place orders via email, or phonecall to check current stock.

regards,
Thanh

You're not the only one who fines it confusing, as they WERE on the online catalog pages at one point... OK, that's just too weired, after trying both your links- I'm saving the one. Should order these after I get back from my biz trip next week.

~Jon

**sturebjorvig** · 23 October 2005, 05:24 Sunday

The speakers I posted a picture of are called Audivation, and that exact model is called the Nordic Tone. This company has just started, so you won't find much info yet. Their website is www.audivation.no, but as of yet it only shows the picture I posted.

Sture

**Paul W** · 23 October 2005, 09:25 Sunday

Jed,
I've used both the W22 and W26 in dipoles and am quite happy with both drivers. As far as I know, the only difference between the "L" series and "W" is a lower distortion motor in the W. Here is the W26 in a two-way @ 600Hz.
Paul

**Jed** · 23 October 2005, 10:47 Sunday

Originally posted by Paul W

Jed,
I've used both the W22 and W26 in dipoles and am quite happy with both drivers. As far as I know, the only difference between the "L" series and "W" is a lower distortion motor in the W. Here is the W26 in a two-way @ 600Hz.
Paul

That and the W series has a lighter cone. Did you use the W22 as a bass/low mid driver or more of a midrange in your dipole? I'll be using it from 30-300/350HZ in a 50L ported box tuned to 30HZ.

**Paul W** · 23 October 2005, 13:21 Sunday

I used the W22 as a low-mid 200-800Hz (4-way) and may re-use them as woofers for HT rear channels. I like them a lot because they are so neutral.

**cinema bob** · 23 October 2005, 15:14 Sunday

Thank you for the info Sture i will be sure to keep an eye out for them.

**TacoD** · 23 October 2005, 15:40 Sunday

Seas W26 is not made from Magnesium, but is also a alu cone. I've not tried the W26, but for me the W22 is not that neutral on the bass department. For that region I prefer Eton, limited excursion, but superior cone imho.

**Jed** · 23 October 2005, 16:34 Sunday

Originally posted by JonMarsh

well, just to kick things off, I'll mention my current underway unfinished projects-

2) X1 MiniMaxx - this is a "downsizing" of the X1 Klones, new bass cabinets, drivers may be TC2+, or RS315HF, or RS265HF, depending on performance, integration issues, and resulting size. Mids will be converted from Eton 370 to Nomex Exclusive 830883, in all likelihood (if the latter are ever back in stock), otherwise I may have to pony up to W18. I'd like to keep the Focal Tc120td2, but I will measure it also; I don't expect I can cross it below 1800, which makes me not favor the RS180 (ETC plots). Any other 7" candidates with a pedigree?

~Jon

Hopefully, this is high on the priority list. I did a search and found info about the "old" klone you did and it is very interesting. Are you planning on keeping the top box the same and just swapping out the woofers? If so do you have plans for the top box/drawings etc that I could review? Curious if you are going to keep the rear firing tweeters in the current design.

**cinema bob** · 23 October 2005, 17:44 Sunday

after much research i have my drivers narrowed down to:
1-seas h1212 tweeter
2-dayton rs150 mid
2-dayton rs265 (rs10 hi-fi) bass bin
in a wilson style mtmww (as per my above post)

does anyone have any practical info on this blend of drivers. i gleened a lot of info from the dayton rs 3-way thread. i plan on bi-amping and really just treating them as a 2-way with a bass module underneith.

the crossover design is kinda intimidating does anyone have any knowledge of someone in iowa or the surrounding area, that could help me with this stuff.

**Jed** · 23 October 2005, 18:56 Sunday

Originally posted by cinema bob

after much research i have my drivers narrowed down to:

the crossover design is kinda intimidating does anyone have any knowledge of someone in iowa or the surrounding area, that could help me with this stuff.

Why not "borrow" Cjd's MTM X-over and use a RS28a, H1212 etc for the MTM section. Or, build a Modula MTM Wilson style and add your bass bin to that. No need to reinvent the wheel when systems that are almost exactly what you are looking for are a step away. The only issue I can see is the fact that the midranges would be placed on the baffle differently than these original designs I just mentioned, if copying the X1. I'd imagine Jon's Modula design is more flexible when it comes to driver placement etc.

Just my $.02.

**cinema bob** · 23 October 2005, 20:21 Sunday

I had thought of that but was not sure if it really was a viable option. that really makes me feel good. if jon or someone else could chime in with opinions i would really appreciate it.
thanks

**cjd** · 23 October 2005, 21:26 Sunday

I have a crossover posted for the RS150 and RS28A. You can pretty much drop in the H1212 where the 27TDFC is used, though it will take a small tweak since one has a rising response and one doesn't. If you really want it let me know, I can take out the inductor on the tweet.

If you cross actively to the RS265HF you'll be set.

If not, the only thing you may be able to consider using is the tweeter network.

C

**Jed** · 23 October 2005, 21:39 Sunday

Originally posted by cjd

I have a crossover posted for the RS150 and RS28A. You can pretty much drop in the H1212 where the 27TDFC is used, though it will take a small tweak since one has a rising response and one doesn't. If you really want it let me know, I can take out the inductor on the tweet.

If you cross actively to the RS265HF you'll be set.

If not, the only thing you may be able to consider using is the tweeter network.

C

Cjd,

Would the frequency response get all messed up due to the X1 tilted midranges? The MTM is configured so that the top midrange fires down and the lower midrange fires up (something like that).

**ralphs99** · 23 October 2005, 22:19 Sunday

Hi Jed,
I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the Eton ER4.
I'm currently working on a system that may end up using the ER4. I'll also be investigating ribbon and dome tweeters as well.
The centre piece of this design will be the ATC dome mid. I've been wanting to try one out for a long time now.
Bass will be 10" volt drivers possibly open baffle. My current test boxes are sealed however.
Sub will be a JBL 2235 just because that's what I've got.
Cheers,
Ralph.

**cinema bob** · 23 October 2005, 22:22 Sunday

yeah i was thinking of getting a berhinger 2496 crossover so if the concensus is that your design would work then i should be a very happy camper... right

**Jed** · 23 October 2005, 23:18 Sunday

Originally posted by ralphs99

Hi Jed,
I'll be interested to hear how you get on with the Eton ER4.
I'm currently working on a system that may end up using the ER4. I'll also be investigating ribbon and dome tweeters as well.
The centre piece of this design will be the ATC dome mid. I've been wanting to try one out for a long time now.
Bass will be 10" volt drivers possibly open baffle. My current test boxes are sealed however.
Sub will be a JBL 2235 just because that's what I've got.
Cheers,
Ralph.

Ralph, I hope to get some boxes built for the Eton 3-way in the next 3 weeks or so. That might be optimistic however. I'm just finishing up the Excel 3-way boxes this week. Just need to get some ports/binding posts etc and get the measurements done, then I can start the Eton 3-way. For some reason there is not much attention paid to the "heatpipe" woofers. They have better X-max than even the 11" woofer. The ER4 will not be mounted as a dipole though, which affects its low end response. Everyone who has measured ER4 seems to get their own different response data. How do you plan on using them? The eton setup is a 2 box design that has the 8-472 in a 45Liter box. F3 will be around 35HZ or so. The top box houses the 7-372 and ER4 in a sealed enclosure for both drivers. Xover simulations suggest 250HZ 2nd order and 4th order around 2K between mid and tweet will work well. Thick felt will be applied behend the ER4 and then wood behind the felt to prevent interference from the mid.

**WLF1** · 24 October 2005, 00:52 Monday

If you wanted to use the Modula MTM with a base (side-firing) woofer like a 12" TC2+, what impacts on the crossover would there be if you increased the baffle width to something like 10-1/2"? The depth of the upper section will be deeper than normal (say 16-18 inches) so this can be sealed off if needed to maintain a 1.0 cf volume.

Thanks,

Lea

**sturebjorvig** · 24 October 2005, 04:44 Monday

I also have a question concerning adding a sub-base to the Modual MTM's. Would it be very problematic (soundwise) if I did what Verity has done with their Lohengrin, having a woofer facing the front wall? (Their top section is an MTM)
I think Verity has done something clever here. The baffle is quite narrow, while the width increases towards the back, so that at least the sub-enclosure is wide enough for a 12-15" to fit in. Because of this shape, the speaker certainly doesn't feel as wide as it actually is. My speakers would probably use something like the RS265 or 315, together with Behringer's active XO.

Here are a few pictures showing the Lohengrin, although not showing the (sub) woofer driver.

Attached Files

**ralphs99** · 24 October 2005, 07:56 Monday

Hi Jed,
I can understand different people seeing different results with the ER4 as it's amplitude response is heavily dependant on the treatment of the rear wave.
I've done several measurements on the ER4. I tried open backed dipole, reflective backed and enclosures.
Open dipole gave the overall best amplitude response from 4kHz up. Reflective backed gave good response down to 2kHz but with some peaks and dips. After some experiments, a reflective back with just a small amount of absorptive material (6 ply tissue paper!) gave a reasonably smooth response 2kHz - 20kHz.
I'm only after a working range from about 4kHz up so I didn't go further with the low frequency region. A small enclosure without damping was poor. A small enclosure with damping looked similar to the dipole response with just a small boost to the 2kHz region. A large enclosure gave a response similar to the dipole case with or without any stuffing.
In your case I think you will need a reflective backing to achieve operation down to 2kHz. Eton recommend a 5mm deep recess packed with felt. I didn't have any felt to try out, but I think you will probably want less than that, maybe a 1-2mm recess. Without EQ you can forget an enclosure.
The ER4 is a low efficiency (88dB), low power handling device, so it may become an SPL limitation on your system driven down to 2kHz. You may want to look at your target requirements in this light. I will be driving it harder but at about an octave higher. Eton have suggested I can increase it's power handling capability if crossed over at 4kHz making it a better match for my other higher output drivers.
Another issue with the ER4 (and many other tweeters) is it's poor polar response. In the horizontal plane it's good up to about 10kHz, but vertical dispersion is limited. Some people may consider this an advantage, but I am firmly in the 'even power response' school of thinking. By using the ER4 dipole rear wave, I hope to improve the power response.
My next round of experiments will look at waveguide loading the ER4 to improve the low frequency region. I am trying to attain a better air load that will reduce the drive requirements at lower frequencies thereby causing the rear wave to have a broadly rising response to even out the total power response.
Crossing over at 4kHz to the 3" mid, I am already seeing a 2dB dip at 30 degrees off the horizontal axis. Improving the low frequency response of the ER4 may also allow me to crossover at a slightly lower frequency improving the power response at the crossover frequency. And the direcivity control offered by a waveguide will help further.
Lastly flush mounting is important with the ER4. Surface mounting gives a 2dB peak at 5kHz.
I hope this gives you some guidance.
Cheers, Ralph.

**Mudjock** · 24 October 2005, 08:37 Monday

Jed,

I have been out of town lately - so not following this thread. I am in Iowa and have crossover for an MT RS150-Seas H1212 at 1.8 kHz. The audience preferred CJD's version by 0.1 point at Chicago Audiofest - but his did have an extra woofer and a much larger cabinet

. Let me know if you are interested...

**TacoD** · 24 October 2005, 13:22 Monday

ER4 combined with felt is the best option, I also tried wool and some poly-fill but that didn't work.

Jed excursion is not everything, it's the whole package (surface, x-max, motor, type of cone). I used the 7" hex in a 2.5-way, very nice woofer but hasn't the surface area to make "big instruments sound big".

**Mudjock** · 24 October 2005, 15:01 Monday

I guess my last post (Iowa, H1212, RS150...) should have been directed toward Cinema Bob, rather than Jed. Sorry for any confusion

**Jed** · 24 October 2005, 16:37 Monday

No problem, but I'd be interested in your results if you are turning this 2-way into a 3-way. :-)

**Jed** · 24 October 2005, 16:39 Monday

Good points Taco. In your experience with the ER4, I think you used 2nd order electrical around 1300HZ and didn't experience any strain, so I think 2000 HZ crossover at a steeper slope should be ok? Comments?

**cinema bob** · 24 October 2005, 18:05 Monday

I'm really intrested in useing a mtm design ala x1 slamm. but I'm not sure on anything yet. Heck i'm still debateing useing the rs270's instead of the rs265's in which case i would probably go to rs180's on the top and use cjd and Brian's crossover for the RS 3-ways. the reason I am thinking this is I would then have the option to use only one channel instead of forceing myself into the corner of bi-amping.

I'm so confused... but its a good kind of confused (options are good)

**TacoD** · 25 October 2005, 11:39 Tuesday

Originally posted by Jed

Good points Taco. In your experience with the ER4, I think you used 2nd order electrical around 1300HZ and didn't experience any strain, so I think 2000 HZ crossover at a steeper slope should be ok? Comments?

2000Hz is where I recommend to cross the ER4, I used the steep roll-off below 2kHz with 12 dB to achieve an acoustic 4th order LR curve. This is only a option if you don't push it to insane soundlevels.