Kloning the Acoustica Applica DaaD traps (very long post)

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  • ThomasW
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Aug 2000
    • 10933

    Kloning the Acoustica Applica DaaD traps (very long post)

    I stole this from a dead thread posted by 'darkmoebius' on DIY Audio. I heard the the effects of these traps in several listening rooms at the RMAF-2005 and was very impressed. The traps are really $pendy, and it seems like they could be kloned.

    A new type of bass trap/diffuser room treatment



    Italian company Acoustica Applicata has created what it claims to be a new form of bass trap/diffuser, called the DAAD..(see closeup pics here), which greatly outperforms the industry standard ASC Tube Trap (which AA manufactured/distributed for years) and RPG Diffusers

    According to this long description of the DAAD's conception/evolution, there are 3 important factors to DAAD's superior performance: 1) the external metal screen/grate (closeup pic) serves the diffusing purpose, 2) the internal resistive/absorptive material sandwich, and 3) the oval/lobe shape of the traps as the link above shows

    To save the impatient a little time, I've culled some of the most important concepts/claims from their literature

    Regarding the external screen/diffusor.....
    The truth is that we had to realise rather quickly that the ‘density’ of the reticule is actually really influential. If there were too many and narrow holes, the ‘s’ became excessively hissing, and if they were too large, vocals sounded darker.
    But these changes did not only affect high frequencies, because low frequencies also behaved differently. If the cover grille allowed more air to go through and reach the inside of the trap, it worked by absorbing larger quantities of frequencies if they were higher than 100 Hz, but it became poorly effective below that number. Whenever we used a more dense cover grille, the amount of absorption diminished drastically but the trap could also work at lower frequencies. In other words, the different types of cover grilles determined the quantity and quality of absorption at low frequencies. This has its logic in a trap that works through differences in pressure. For example, in the case of a dense cover grille, the amount of air reaching the resistive material is small if compared to a grille that has fewer but bigger holes. The quantity of resistive material inside is fixed. Therefore, air that enters the trap through denser and smaller holes ‘sees’ a greater quantity of sound absorbent material and has a higher pressure. In this way the trap absorbs a smaller quantity of sound because it has less air to deal with, but it activates itself at lower frequencies. On the other hand, if it has bigger holes, the trap receives more air and absorbs a greater quantity of sound, but, because of the fact that the pressure is lower, it activates itself at higher frequencies

    The pressed and micro-perforated metal sheet turned out to be a very ‘powerful’ and flexible material. Whenever it was put in place instead of the original cloth covering the Tube Traps results were better. We were still not satisfied however

    Tube Traps covered with a pressed metal sheet offered both good control over resounding frequencies and an acceptable amount of sound diffusion at high frequencies, but...didn’t allow music to breathe the way we wanted.
    Regarding the absorptive insulation....
    The resistive material inside of Tube Traps is glass wool that has excellent properties as a sound absorbent. Its thickness is calculated on the basis of the volume of air inside the trap. If one introduces compressed air inside a Tube Trap (thus creating a practically reversed situation compared to normal utilization), the air that comes out of the trap is almost non-existent. In other words, the added air is, for the most part, converted by the glass wool into heat through a powerful friction. But, if you think this through, this also means that it will take longer for the trap to return to its original pressure state. If one considers a long sequence of sound transients, it is quite likely that a device with a considerable quantity of sound absorbent material will succeed in handling the first difference in pressure, but then won’t have time enough to get ready for the second and some of the following ones. Therefore, a slow trap works only in intermittence.

    ... In order to get what we wanted, we had to experiment with other materials and thicknesses that allowed air to penetrate the trap quickly and get out again after a given time. These new materials shouldn’t create excessive friction to the air passing through them, in order not to slow down the functioning of the entire acoustic device with regard to the timing of music transients that follow each other. What we wanted was a ‘fast’ trap! After some substantial additional research we finally found a satisfactory combination of two materials.
    Regarding the shape of the trap...
    So all we had to do now was to define the final shape of our new acoustic device.

    The shape of a lobe seemed the most suitable one, for the following reasons:

    1. its internal volume being equal to a cylinder, a lobe-shaped device ‘penetrates’ the corners of a room more deeply, thus capturing the resounding frequencies more easily

    2. its shape facilitates the simultaneous use of different materials for the resistive layer of the device;

    3. like a cylinder, but unlike a flat panel, a lobe device allows one to have an inner volume with air and a thickness able to create ‘acoustic shade’. In other words, it provides a very good ratio between the space used and the results that are reached;

    4. like a cylinder, but unlike a flat panel, a lobe device can be rotated on itself. Having lobes with different diffusion characteristics allows one to position them in several ways and to change room acoustics according to one’s personal needs or tastes

    But the most interesting and lucky discovery actually came when we realised how the chosen lobe shape tended to ‘remix’ energy: once it receives a sound wave, the DAAD works on it in a way that not only delays its re-release but also diffuses it homogeneously all around it.

    We were about to reach the finish line. All we had to do now was to find the right ratio between the thickness of the resistive material and the degree of ‘permeability’ to air of the pressed metal sheet

    We only thought to have reached our goal after we decided to reduce the thickness of the resistive material, when the device was put in a condition to work faster. The presence of the pressed metal sheet and the shape of the trap obviously allowed us to use sound absorbing material with more moderation. It is the combination of these three things – the shape, metal sheet, and quality and thickness of the resistive material - that allows DAADs to behave both as a fast acoustic trap for resounding low frequencies and as a diffusion–diffraction device that turns early reflections into more delayed ones.
    Any how, I'm researching perforated metal material and am going to fab up some of these for experimentational purposes.

    Here are the dimensions of the Daad traps

    DAAD2
    absorbents of sound for reflections
    posterior laterals and p/resonances above of 120Hz
    diameter max. 22cm - 110cm

    DAAD3
    absorbents of sound for all
    the primary reflections above of 70Hz
    diameter max. 28cm - 110 cm

    DAAD4
    absorbents of sound for all
    the reflections anteriorers above of 50Hz
    diameter max. 39cm - 110 cm

    IB subwoofer FAQ page


    "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson
  • JonMarsh
    Mad Max Moderator
    • Aug 2000
    • 15292

    #2
    Must have made an imnpression on you, huh?

    ~Jon
    the AudioWorx
    Natalie P
    M8ta
    Modula Neo DCC
    Modula MT XE
    Modula Xtreme
    Isiris
    Wavecor Ardent

    SMJ
    Minerva Monitor
    Calliope
    Ardent D

    In Development...
    Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
    Obi-Wan
    Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
    Modula PWB
    Calliope CC Supreme
    Natalie P Ultra
    Natalie P Supreme
    Janus BP1 Sub


    Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
    Just ask Mr. Ohm....

    Comment

    • ThomasW
      Moderator Emeritus
      • Aug 2000
      • 10933

      #3
      Yep. And they seem like a good solution for fine tuning the family room system. A little lower visual impact than the large sound absorbing panels in the theater.

      And BTW you lucky man, are expected to help reverse engineer these in your copious spare time.. :wink:

      IB subwoofer FAQ page


      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

      Comment

      • cjd
        Ultra Senior Member
        • Dec 2004
        • 5570

        #4
        I wonder if Ethan (Winer) would have anything to contribute to this discussion.

        I would be quite interested in knowing what range of possible covering material would work acceptably still, as I definitely see the potential in these.

        C
        diVine Sound - my DIY speaker designs at diVine Audio

        Comment

        • PMazz
          Senior Member
          • May 2001
          • 861

          #5
          I've been thinking about some decent looking traps as well. I was thinking along the lines of a shorter, fatter shaped round "ottoman" if you will, only on casters to easily shift around. Once the media center project is complete, I'll have a recessed corner to the left of the unit where media stoage built-ins will be. My thinking was I was going to need some absorption there to help with the typical boom produced by this in a room.

          The ones you're thinking of cloning (Kloning? ) would work well around parts of the rest of the room, as long as they're less than 3 feet high. I've got one corner near the seats that would really benefit from one of these.

          I'm in! Anything I can do to help, just let me know. If you want some 2" OC703 (my favorite material) to play with, let me know and I'll send you some.

          Pete
          Birth of a Media Center

          Comment

          • ThomasW
            Moderator Emeritus
            • Aug 2000
            • 10933

            #6
            I wonder if Ethan (Winer) would have anything to contribute to this discussion
            No thank you..:wink:

            Pete,

            First I need to talk with Jon about how 'opaque/transparent' the metal mesh should be. I found some really cool stainless steel mesh on the McMaster-Carr website, it's not too expensive .... :roflmao:



            Then I'll play around with stuffing material. I have acoustic foam, 40lbs of long fiber wool, and some other goodies. Does that 703 stuff bend?

            You can make them any height you want. The diameter and stuffing material is key to the frequencies absorbed.




            IB subwoofer FAQ page


            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

            Comment

            • PMazz
              Senior Member
              • May 2001
              • 861

              #7
              Does that 703 stuff bend?
              Unfortunately, no. Cutting some V grooves on the back would do it, but it sounds like a pain....

              I'll look around here for something that may be more useful. Screen? Let me check around.

              Any idea what the cross section looks like?

              Pete
              Birth of a Media Center

              Comment

              • ThomasW
                Moderator Emeritus
                • Aug 2000
                • 10933

                #8
                Cutting some V grooves on the back would do it, but it sounds like a pain....
                Makes me itch just talking about it.... :B
                Any idea what the cross section looks like?
                Based on the description in the text, outer layer of mesh, next a layer of damping material, center is an air core.

                Like most of these devices they put a plastic film one on a lobe or side. Depending on how that's oriented, the device can either diffuse or absorb high frequencies.

                I think the prototype will be held together with threaded rod. That way top can be popped off and the guts changed out rather quickly. Also I can cram a mic down the core and measure what's happening inside.

                IB subwoofer FAQ page


                "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                Comment

                • autio
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2005
                  • 118

                  #9
                  Thomas, The close up of the mesh looks like "expanded metal" like used in catwalks and such at factories (or for numerous other purposes like guards for saftey). This stuff is available in many different metals and sizes. One source is metalex found here http://www.metlx.com/micromesh.html . I will be looking foward to reading about your new project!

                  Comment

                  • taz13
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2004
                    • 930

                    #10
                    Here is a PDF on 700 Series Owens Corning insulation with an acoustics property table and applications write up. 2 pages.
                    Attached Files
                    The day is not complete if something new is not learnt.
                    Taz/Rick/Richard/Ricardo

                    Comment

                    • Dennis H
                      Ultra Senior Member
                      • Aug 2002
                      • 3798

                      #11
                      Looks like the basic shape could be made out of the same 703-like round duct insulation the tube traps use. 2 pieces, half the diameter of the desired diagonal dimension, separate the halves and stick them together in a cloverleaf shape. Personally, I'd loosely stuff the inside with fiberglass batts. Their whole "fast recovery" business reminds me of "fast bass" i.e. an oxymoron.

                      FWIW, Ethan can be a bit shaky on the theory and heavy on the BS but he did take samples to a lab on his own dime and get them measured. He found the ASC tube traps weren't much better than a piece of 703 with the same area. The hollow core was basically worthless and you need to stuff them to get more absorption.

                      Comment

                      • ThomasW
                        Moderator Emeritus
                        • Aug 2000
                        • 10933

                        #12
                        The close up of the mesh looks like "expanded metal"
                        Yep that's what I assumed from the reference in the text
                        pressed and micro-perforated metal
                        Here is a PDF on 700 Series Owens Corning insulation
                        Interesting thanks ... :T

                        Pete,

                        I bet you have a heat gun at the shop. Would you try to bend a short length of the 703 into a 6"-7" diameter arc using it?

                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                        Comment

                        • Dennis H
                          Ultra Senior Member
                          • Aug 2002
                          • 3798

                          #13
                          Japan, a land of ancient traditions and modern marvels, has given the world a unique form of martial art that stands as a testament to its rich cultural heritage: Sumo Wrestling. This traditional


                          The compressed fiberglass is the only item that may be difficult to locate. The fiberglass I used was manufactured by Knauf and they apparently have distributors in most major cities. I suggest going to the Knauf website to contact Knauf about the location of local distributer. International Technifab is the distributor in the Denver area. The folks at both Knauf and International Technifab were accommodating and helpful.

                          Comment

                          • ThomasW
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • Aug 2000
                            • 10933

                            #14
                            Dennis,

                            Yep seen that stuff and that's why I was asking Pete about bending the stuff he has. The .pdf link refers to the material being "semi-rigid", so I assume it can be thermo-formed. Since Kauf is local I'll give them a call as well, thanks for the heads-up..... 8)

                            Their whole "fast recovery" business reminds me of "fast bass" i.e. an oxymoron.
                            Oh yee of little 'faith'.... :wink:

                            I think most of the article is hype. But I was transfixed (hard for an old guy with a short attention span) at the sound quality of the big Avalon room at the RMAF. This was a standard hotel conference room. The back wall was curtains over glass, floor was carpet over concrete, drop ceiling, sheetrock on stud sidewall construction.

                            Other than the speakers, speaker placement and a bizillion dollars worth of electronics, the only things effecting the SQ in the Avalon room, were dozens of these traps. So they must be doing something ...:wink:

                            The hollow core was basically worthless and you need to stuff them to get more absorption
                            Probably so. I'll make some measurements on my dime..... :B
                            Last edited by ThomasW; 08 October 2005, 01:29 Saturday.

                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                            Comment

                            • PMazz
                              Senior Member
                              • May 2001
                              • 861

                              #15
                              OC Type 703, Semirigid insulation board

                              Thk****Mntg*125Hz*250Hz*500Hz*1kHz*2kHz**4kHz

                              1.00**** A **0.11**0.28**0.68**0.90**0.93**0.96
                              2.00**** A **0.17**0.86**1.14**1.07**1.02**0.98
                              3.00**** A **0.53**1.19**1.21**1.08**1.01**1.04
                              4.00**** A **0.84**1.24**1.24**1.08**1.00**0.97
                              1.00**E-405**0.32**0.32**0.73**0.93**1.01**1.10
                              2.00**E-405**0.40**0.73**1.14**1.13**1.06**1.10
                              3.00**E-405**0.66**0.93**1.13**1.10**1.11**1.14
                              4.00**E-405**0.65**1.01**1.20**1.14**1.10**1.16




                              Would you try to bend a short length of the 703 into a 6"-7" diameter arc using it?
                              I only have the 2" semi rigid stuff and I don't think it would bend well and hold it's shape. I think the pipe covering would be a good candidate for this app. That and some hot glue should make a fairly durable shape.

                              The screen to me didn't look like the "mesh" but maybe a sprayed up standard screening material.

                              Pete
                              Birth of a Media Center

                              Comment

                              • autio
                                Senior Member
                                • Mar 2005
                                • 118

                                #16
                                Pete Check out this http://www.metlx.com/process.html and than look at the close up carefully you can see the diamond shape of the holes (I think)

                                Comment

                                • ThomasW
                                  Moderator Emeritus
                                  • Aug 2000
                                  • 10933

                                  #17
                                  I only have the 2" semi rigid stuff and I don't think it would bend well and hold it's shape.
                                  Yep that's too thick to try and bend. I'll see if I can't locate some the the duct material Dennis showed...
                                  The screen to me didn't look like the "mesh" but maybe a sprayed up standard screening material.
                                  The factory paper referres to a "pressed and micro-perforated metal " In reality it may not matter if it's stamped or screen. The most important thing is probably the % of open vs closed. The only benefit I see to a expanded metal is that it would be more rigid than a screen type material

                                  IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                  "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                  Comment

                                  • Carl V
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Apr 2005
                                    • 269

                                    #18
                                    Thomas how about using Compressed wool or Compressed Cotton.
                                    I believe there is a Room treatment Co. using this product...I believe
                                    I saw them on Audio cirlces...

                                    Sorry I wasn't able to accompany Ed & larry to your den of inequity,
                                    aka, you home & shop. The Girlfriend sorta had plans for an evening
                                    of live music & fun-n-frolic. Perhaps next year. It was good to see
                                    you again.

                                    Comment

                                    • ThomasW
                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 10933

                                      #19
                                      Hi Carl, and welcome ....

                                      If given the choice I'd rather spend the evening with my GF rather than a bunch of audio geeks .... :wink:

                                      Cotton? Don't really know. I'll sniff around and see what I can find..

                                      IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                      "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                      Comment

                                      • ThomasW
                                        Moderator Emeritus
                                        • Aug 2000
                                        • 10933

                                        #20
                                        Although it's taking a while, I'm gathering resources for the design of these traps. My latest discovery is a Porous Absorber Calculator Spreadsheet created by Chris Whealy.

                                        And to answer Carl V's question, according to Jon Risch's website cotton batting is too dense to be effective.

                                        IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                        "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                        Comment

                                        • JonMarsh
                                          Mad Max Moderator
                                          • Aug 2000
                                          • 15292

                                          #21
                                          Needs to be hooked up to reference threads
                                          the AudioWorx
                                          Natalie P
                                          M8ta
                                          Modula Neo DCC
                                          Modula MT XE
                                          Modula Xtreme
                                          Isiris
                                          Wavecor Ardent

                                          SMJ
                                          Minerva Monitor
                                          Calliope
                                          Ardent D

                                          In Development...
                                          Isiris Mk II updates- in final test stage!
                                          Obi-Wan
                                          Saint-Saëns Symphonique/AKA SMJ-40
                                          Modula PWB
                                          Calliope CC Supreme
                                          Natalie P Ultra
                                          Natalie P Supreme
                                          Janus BP1 Sub


                                          Resistance is not futile, it is Volts divided by Amperes...
                                          Just ask Mr. Ohm....

                                          Comment

                                          • ThomasW
                                            Moderator Emeritus
                                            • Aug 2000
                                            • 10933

                                            #22
                                            Bump for nothing more than these deserve a second look especially the link in post #20.

                                            IB subwoofer FAQ page


                                            "Complicated equipment and light reflectors and various other items of hardware are enough, to my mind, to prevent the birdie from coming out." ...... Henri Cartier-Bresson

                                            Comment

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