wilson audio-ish speakers

[cinema bob]

ok my wife kinda put the kibosh on my dream of an all tube home theater, she wants it to be very easy to use. but she has no care for the decor of the room or the size of the speakers.

This brings me to the conclusion that i should just try and build my "dream Speakers" and go after a wilson audio watt/puppy or sophia type of speaker. i was at first thinking of taking inspiration from the modula's and going with all dayton audio drivers. but i think that i have changed my mind after hearing some of the problems that people have been having with the rs tweeters. so i am now thinking about using morel mdt33's for the tweeters. I am thinking of using rs180's for the woofers and am not sure but am thinking of rs10's (hi-fi) for the bass bin. I plan to bi-amp.

the problem is this i have no clue about crossovers, i can build the cabinets but i don't know where to begin with crossover design. this is further aggravated by the fact that i am not at all good with a soldering iron (though i plan to practice quite a bit).
i would very much appriciate some help.

[JonMarsh]

There may be other folks similarly inclined to follow your path. I still like the RS28a quite a bit, but am also experimenting with the Seas H1212. The latter may be (on an "objective" basis one of the best choices below $100. I'm a bit of an objectivist, so I'd want to see some distortion data and ETC plots on the Morel before I personally considered it for a design.

If you're planning on a conventional active crossover, then incorporating BSC in the upper module in the same way as for a conventional two way would probably be the say to go. Then, perhaps a 125 Hz to 150 Hz crossover active (LR4) to the "bass bin" would be easy to do.

Esthetically, there's a lot of choice in execuation; baffle width and it's affect on BSC being the most important to nail down early in the design.

As I posted on an earlier post, this concept has some appeal to me, too, but I'm more interested (personally) in something like an Isis Klone, due to the esthetics and my general roots, experience, and preferences. Were I to persue that, I'd probably evaluate both the RS150 and RS180 carefully before making a choice, if on a budget.

If not on a budget, then I might prefer a W18 Seas. I don't think the Accuton midwoofers bring that much more to the party, considering the cost. I wouldn't want to use a C95-6 above about 1500 Hz, either, due to influence of cone resonance on 3rd harmonic.

First, you might stumble across someone who as done or is doing something similar to what you want- check out the PE Support board and projects page, and use your trusty friend google.

In developing a crossover for a custom speaker, there's rarely any workable substitute for the ability to do measurements on drivers in your final cabinet configuration, and develop the crossover accordingly, or enlist someone if you can get the measurements done yourself.

For an example of a high end quasi DIY speaker like you're talking about, consider the Salk Veracity HT-3.



It certainly illustrates one way the concept can be developed.





Salk Sound Veracity HT3

OTOH, my roots technically and esthetically are more aligned with speakers like Avalon's designs, in spite of my own SLAMM X1 Klones, and I'm probably more intersted doing something like this, just to be annoying to Neil.



But it will be months before I have time to even consider this seriously, due to my "day job".

~Jon

[cinema bob]

thank you very much for your input. i will be looking into those seas drivers.
it will probably be some time before i am able to seriously start building these speakers so i have some time to look into designs that i like. those avalons are very cool.

[cadman]

Watt/puppy clones

well I built the Watt/puppy clones
and they sound very good plans are here not that hard to do

I used ETON drivers 7" , focal tweeter and 2 8" ETON

http://www.users.nac.net/markowitzgd/david/david.htm

still working on them
have fun

[RobP]

Cadman, you have any pics of the speakers you built?

[TacoD]

If not on a budget, then I might prefer a W18 Seas. I don't think the Accuton midwoofers bring that much more to the party, considering the cost. I wouldn't want to use a C95-6 above about 1500 Hz, either, due to influence of cone resonance on 3rd harmonic.

I found that the W18EX001 is easier to filter than an C95-T6, this is because of the fact that the number of reasonable sounding x-over points for the Accuton is larger than for the Seas. So making a really good x-over takes more time. I also think the W18EX is better sounding ...

What kind of Avalons are those Jon?

[ThomasW]

That show was the world premier of the $48K Avalon Isis. There was no information available about their design. Given the cost, one can assume diamond tweeters

[TacoD]

That show was the world premier of the $48K Avalon Isis. There was no information available about their design. Given the cost, one can assume diamond tweeters

I agree on that , and those new Accuton units with neodym motors ???

[ThomasW]

Don't know, it wasn't a situation where one could just jump up and pop off the grill frames. There's pad of wool felt in those to assist in diffraction control.

There was no literature, and no one from Avalon around to answer questions.

[JonMarsh]

Thomas, did you get any other pics, say, closer up?

~Jon

[ThomasW]

Nope see my reply to this same question in the RS180 Modula TM thread.

[JoshK]

As long as we are throwing out what we personally enjoy in aesthetics, the kharma ceramique is probably my favorite speaker aesthetically speaking. Not the drivers so much as the cabinet geometry. If I ever get some time, I would love to klone the cabinets of the Kharma's and put a variation of the Modula MT in them. I would really love to do them up in Mappa Burl.

mappa burl

I think I found the appropriate router bit for the Kharma baffle edges. Its a 3 1/8" diameter handrail bit.

[Dennis H]

That shape is similar to what Jim Salk is doing. He uses solid wood for the upper baffle and raw veneer for the rest. I couldn't find one in Mappa but here's one in Bubbinga.

[JoshK]

Hi Dennis, yeah it is similar and yet I don't like the geometry of the Salk HT3as. Funny because they aren't that different. I guess I am just picky and like things just so. Not as picky as my wife though.

[Dennis H]

If you want a narrower look, you could always use a pair of TC Sounds 8" instead of the single 10".

[JoshK]

It really has to do in my mind with the added baffle of the uppers not being flush with the lower baffle, no roundover on the baffle ex added baffle & the transition of the angle to straight sides being not in the logical spot in my mind. Just my opinions of course but I will still try to klone the ceramique 3.x someday in the distant future.

The thumbnail roundover used on the Kharma's is the bomb in my opinion and is what is missing on most other look alikes. I found the bit but further examining would suggest veneer would be impossible without a big seam on the side, due to the roundover in the transition. Bummer, as I like *some* wood looks better than painted, but painted can be ok too.

[JoshK]

When I get to that point, having build the cabinets, I will measure the drivers in the cabinet and try to modify the CE filter of the Modula MT for such a cabinet and then try to ellicit feedback from the Guru's here. I probably will get to this when Jon gets to finishing all the projects he has on the burner right now.

[Dennis H]

Josh, the only way you can get a roundover on the front, with a complex front shape, is to use solid wood. So, you just need to keep your eyes open for two pieces of 6/4 or 8/4 burl big enough to do the baffles all the way to the floor. Then you can veneer the sides and back to match. Once you have the materials, you can do whatever shape you like.

[JoshK]

The roundover on the Kharma is on the sides, not the front which I think makes it actually slightly more complicated.

[Dennis H]

Not really. Just a matter of how you hold the router. The baffle just needs to be thick enough for the profile you chose. Of course if the "sides wrapping around the baffle with a groove" is a necessary design feature, you'll have to buy more burl. Make the sides out of solid burl and veneer the front. Or just build the whole thing out of solid wood. Tricky but it can be done if you live in a place where the inside humidity doesn't swing wildly.

[JoshK]

I hear ya Dennis, and I am not really arguing with you. I just meant to point out what I thought was a practical aspect of the design. It *seems* most practical to have the baffle swoop on the side or else the front baffle will be 5"+ thick. I don't think I could find nor afford such a chunk of wood or appropriate size.

[sturebjorvig]

JoshK : "As long as we are throwing out what we personally enjoy in aesthetics, the kharma ceramique is probably my favorite speaker aesthetically speaking. Not the drivers so much as the cabinet geometry. If I ever get some time, I would love to klone the cabinets of the Kharma's and put a variation of the Modula MT in them."


Josh,

I agree with you completely in that the Kharma 3.x are very pleasing aesthetically, and I am sure soundwise too. And I also think that the Salk speakers are similar, but still very diferent from the Kharmas.

I am currently doing what you are thinking of doing, which is building Kharma-clones. Orginally I was going to build a 2-way using SS9800 and Excel W18, but now I am not sure, maybe I will try some Dayton RS drivers, perhaps using the Modula MT design.

I have attached some photos showing my clones so far. I am not quite finished building the cabinets yet. As you can see from the pictures, I have built the cabinets in 'one piece', and not like Kharma has done, which is kind of 'separating' the baffle from the sides, if you see what I mean. I think my take on this is more attractive, at least to my eyes.
Judge for yourself.

Sture

[JoshK]

Wow! Great work!

I'd love to see how you constructed them if you took any photos or would be willing to write a brief description of how to you constructed yours.

Cheers,
Josh

[sturebjorvig]

Thanks Josh,

I will try to put together some kind of description over the weekend, if I get the time. In the meanwhile, here are some more pictures that show the building process. They should give you a pretty good idea of how I built them.

Take care,

Sture

[JoshK]

Thanks! Pictures speak a thousand words you know? I think I got the jist of how you did them. Very clever.

[sturebjorvig]

Josh,

If you want to I will keep you updated with how I proceed with my project. I am hoping to have time to get the finish done on them soon, whatever that means. I will not put veneer on, just paint. I think that suits these speakers better somehow.

Here are pictures showing how Kharma build their cabinets, and some details on the feet. Simple but good-looking.

Sture

[JoshK]

please do!

[TacoD]

Those Kharma's only look great in non wood finishes...

-> sturebjorvig go for the Excel / Scanspeak units, I agree it is more expensive, but my experience is that i sounds better (nofi).