Avalanche 15 subs shipped, yet?

[awm]

Hi, folks -- has anyone received their closeout subs, yet?

I haven't and was curious to see if anyone else has or whether anyone knows when they'll be shipped.

Thanks,
Andy

[ThomasW]

What did Ascendant Audio say when you contacted them?

[awm]

They said sometime in June, which is fast drawing to a close. I emailed Chad and have yet ot hear back from him. Did you order any to add to your collection? :B

Andy

[Interious]

I talked to Chad Thursday (23rd) and he said they
have the dust caps and the drivers would
be shipping this coming week.

[awm]

Cool! Thanks a bunch for the update. Andy

[JoshK]

I got tracking on my 15"er.

[Interious]

Did they e-mail you Josh?

Dave

[awm]

Got my shipping notice, too. Should be here the 9th. Woohoo!

Andy

[JohnL]

I got my shipping notice on thursday, my Av15 should be on the doorstep when I get home (I'm not telling anyone where I live)

[JoshK]

I got a "FedEx Ground Pre-Shipment" email from Fedex that had Ascendent Audio as the shipper along with the tracking info.

[Dotay]

I received mine Friday but placed my order early on the first day of the sale. The sub looks pretty impressive and I can't wait to fire it up.

[JohnL]

It was on my doorstep when I got home last night (I guess nobody figured out where I live). Holy Mackerel!! That thing is a monster! Nice packing job, too.

Now I have another box to build.

[Interious]

My pair shipped yesterday.

What are you guys going to do with yours?

Chad recommended 3.5 cu ft sealed for a Q of ~.56 so I'm thinking about going with that. I may try fiberglass stuffing despite handling problems. The Crown K1 is expensive but I bet the combo would be killer.
Dave

[JoshK]

FYI: Received mine yesterday.

[RIverGmblr]

I put mine in 3.5 cu ft sealed cabinet no stuffing and it sounds great. The cabinet will get two 3" ports 24.25" long to get an F3 of about 27hz. If I don't like it I can plug the ports. Tom

[awm]

REceived mine yesterday, too. Gorgeous drivers, I must say! I plan on using both in an IB set-up in my HT in the basement. They'll fire into an open stairwell. Will probably use an LT. Should be interesting... :B

Interious, if you get the right kind of fiberglass, you'll have little in the way of handling problems. Look for Miraflex fiberglass insulation, formerly available at my Lowes, though no longer... HD sells something almost the same. (I forge the brand name...) It's white and feels more cottony than usual. It also seems a little denser. Either will not give the splinters and discomfort fiberglass is notorious for. Or, at least in drastically reduced amounts.

HTH,
Andy

[Interious]

Should I keep mine?

I received my pair on Friday. One has a defective dustcap installation. It looks like the gluing operation failed--edges on opposite sides are lifted enough to cup the cap. It's impossible to know if there is an air-tight seal at the glue bond interface.

Today, I drove the good one with a sinewave at moderate excursions. I thought I heard obvious waveform distortion, and indeed, the TC2+ sounds much cleaner. The Avalanche sounds like it's breaking into a square wave at ~ 50hz. It's clearly had it by 80 hz, but that may be normal.

This would be consistent with Monte Kay's measurements.

I called Chad and he was instantly and thoroughly responsive.
I have the option of returning the defective on for a good one,
or returning both for a refund, which I'm inclined to do at this point.

Tom is reporting great sound with his, and AA's drivers are very popular, especially for IB work. Still--my confidence is shaken a bit.

[Interious]

Picture

[Rolyasm]

I received my (4) 15" Avalanche today and checked them out. I am stoked. Question though. After reading Interious' post, I checked out my caps with a business card. Some of the gaps are as deep as 1-2 cm. Is this a problem? In some places the cap is sealed right to the edge, but mostly they are not. What should I look for and what problems should I inspect for? Thanks all. They look so awesome.

[DeanP]

Just a "metric" Canadian having a chuckle!

Some of the gaps are as deep as 1-2 cm.

Ha! Ha! Thats about 1/2-3/4"! :roflmao:
Though I guess he could be right ops:

Maybe 1-2 "mm"...?

[Rolyasm]

no, I meant 1-2 cm. I didn't actually get out a ruler, but my depths are greater than that seen in Interious' picture a few above this reply. So is that bad? Maybe I should get out a paper, a pen and do some actual measuerments if it really makes a difference.

[cdwitmer]

By "depth" I assume is meant the depth that the corner of a business card can be inserted. The corner of the card is inserted and by the time the card has gone in as far as it will go, the card has "penetrated" 1-2cm into the region under the dust cap. Obviously the dust cap has not lifted 1-2cm away from the cone.

Having a bit of experience with repairing damaged woofers, this sounds to me like something that should be repairable locally (i.e., by the user) without requiring a return to the mfr. -- that is, if you would rather not get involved with returning them to the mfr. Two possible concerns that come to mind are: 1) Could the gaps become a point of air leakage in use? (That depends on the design of the driver, and matters more with sealed enclosures than with ported.) 2) Could the gaps vibrate -- "chatter" -- during use? It may be that overlaying a bead of glue (such as white woodworkers' glue) around the contact point between the dust cap and the cone will do the trick. BTW I see Roly's msg is on two threads and I am replying on both.

[Rolyasm]

Thanks. I posted a similar thread on two places. I hope that isn't frowned upon. You are following me perfectly CD. I very gently inserted a card and measured the depths. The deepest ones were 5/8, 7/16, and 1/2 inches on three different drivers. The fourth driver only has about a 1/8 depth around all edges. I guess I should call Chad? Thanks for any more information.
Rolyasm

[cdwitmer]

The cone and voice coil former (cylinder) together look like a large funnel. The dust cap sits over that opening and is supposed to be held in place by a "bead" (may be a good deal less than a bead, actually) of adhesive at the circle where it contacts the cone. Underneath it is a large empty space, so if there is a gap you will be able to shove something sufficiently narrrow quite a way under there. More meaningful than the depth is the length of the detached periphery. Calling Chad is a good idea at this point, unless one of our local experts (which I am not) can give you a definitive answer first. You need to find out from Chad whether, cosmetic issues aside, there are any performance issues you need to be concerned about, and if so, can you easily eliminate any potential problems by running a bead of glue around the periphery of the dust cap. Be sure to find out what glue is best . . . it may well be that plain old white woodworkers' glue will work fine, but let's not take it for granted. Your warranty may or may not be something that concerns you, but you might want to ask whether your putting a bead of glue there voids whatever warranty you have. Also, Chad may need to know that you have a sealed enclosure in order to answer your questions adequately, as air leakage is of less concern in a ported enclosure. I'm guessing that after all you have been through, and with the goal in sight, you would be more than happy to take care of any minor problems yourself at this point, rather than returning the drivers to the mfr . . .

[Interious]

I too have thought of sealing the gaps with
wood glue, but entertain the possibility that
a gap could allow for glue to flow into the
VC gap/area, which would pretty much
murder the driver.

Perhaps a better idea would be hot glue, but
you know what even a superb application of that will look like.

My maximum business card insertion depth is about 1/2" on the sample pictured, about 1/4" on my other sample, which looks normal. Chad told me there is an intermediate "washer" type piece that is interposed between dustcap and cone. It is this piece that is felt while probing with the business card tool.

You guys may want to take a careful listen to your
naked Ava15 samples. I think I hear problems with a sinewave, especially at ~50 hz (~3/8" P-P excursion), and that's with my "good" sample.
But that's a crude test and I'm not the brightest HTG bulb.

In any case, I think something's going on at AA.
The dustcap attachment portion of the manufacturing process--which is performed at AA--is obviously flawed.
Dave

[Rolyasm]

I am a total newbie and have no idea how to test for sinewaves, especially at ~50hz . Is there anything I can do just to hook them up to something and take a listen? Can I run the wire from my receiver that I am using for my Polk sub to the Avalanche and turn it on with no enclosure or anything else? Everything I do or know comes basically directly from this forum. So thanks for all the help and I really appreciate feedback.
Roly

[ajpoe]

a sine wave is a recording of various frequencies, usually sweeping across the spectrum for testing purposes i.e. from 10 hz to 150 hz for subwoofer testing. you can hook your speakers up via speaker wire to an amplifier and you'd need a test cd or dvd with a sine wave recorded on it. these people are hearing problems, probably vibrations or unusual noises when they sine wave is playing the frequency of 50 hz.

i am very curious about these issues as i just placed an order for 2 15s a couple days ago. i'm wondering if i should cancel the order before i'm charged and they ship and look for another driver or if these issues are being addressed.

[ThomasW]

Don't Panic!

It's quite possible this is a function of the extreme rigidity of the carbon fiber dust cap in comparison to the slightly more flexible cone.

If the glue is around the top edge of the VC and there is a slight difference in the curve of the cone vs the dust cap this gap could exist and not be a problem at all. OR it maybe as simple an adding a slight amount of an appropriate adhesive So...

someone, not everyone call Chad.... and report back. To date the customer service from Chad has been outstanding, so stay calm and everything will get worked out. This certainly isn't a 'deal breaker' for anyone ordering drivers.

Note:those that aren't experienced with running sine waves should not be running free air sweeps. It's quite easy to damage a driver doing this.

[Interious]

I did a simple sweep with a signal generator while holding the driver vertically, supported by the carpeted floor. Not very scientific.

I played some Rap music today and it is clear that in a good box, these things will split atoms. On the other hand, Monte Kay measured unacceptable distortion levels in the Avalanche series.

On another hand, Avalanche are very popular with
the Infinite Baffle boys, and Tom says his sound great.

I'm unclear regarding this forum's opinion of the driver. The dustcap issue kind of pushes it over the edge for me. I wonder if the Bully Sub is a better way to go, despite the extra cash? Less Xmax, but I'm not an Xmax nut. I talked to Bully's designer and he impressed me as being very sound.
Dave

[ThomasW]

For subwoofer use these are VERY good drivers. If you need a driver to play up into the lower midbass, there are better choices.

As noted there are dozens and dozens and dozens of Ave drivers in IBs and no one is complaining.

Jon measured the Atlas 12" and found that the Le was higher than the stated spec. We haven't tested the Ave series.

I can find no reference to any testing of the Ave series on Monty Kay's website.

FWIW, Tom Nousaine tests all subwoofers at 10% distortion. He claims that at the frequencies subs are operating, distortion levels of 10% are inaudible.

[cdwitmer]

It is quite a distance from the periphery of the dust cap down to where the voice coil is. You would need some very thin, runny glue to make it all the way down there. It wouldn't be a good thing to have glue running all the way down to the vicinity of the voice coil if for no other reason than that region can get rather hot during heavy use. However, the voice coil itself is wound on the outside of the vc former, and in the highly unlikely event that any stray glue made it down that far, the glue would be on the inside of the vc former. So the chances of the glue causing a physical obstruction are approximately zero. I agree with Thomas that if these are the only defects in the drives, they should not be "deal breakers" for someone who wants a conventional (i.e., low crossover point) subwoofer for their personal use.

So who is going to be the one to call Chad? Somebody please raise their hand . . . Thomas also correctly observes that it is a less than optimal use of available resources (especially Chad's) to have each affected person calling about the same problem when one person could inquire and post the information on the Internet for all . . .

[Interious]

That answers a lot of questions ThomasW. Thanks
Dave

[Rolyasm]

Someone with experience at these things should call. That would NOT be me. Any volunteers? I do have a few test CD's, but Thomas, it sounds like you are recommending not hooking up anything to test my drivers. They certainly look ok, but is there any way to do a non-invasive, non-damaging test just to make sure they function to some degree? My test CD has a range of frequencies so I can test specific areas. Thanks everyone.
Roly

[Interious]

I had an extensive conversation with Chad regarding this problem. He was adamant that the dustcap gluing process is industrial strength and was at a loss to explain the gap problem we've discovered.

I reiterate that Chad was massively energetic
in responding to my situation, offering either
driver replacement, or a Fedex pick-up for full
refund. As of last week, I had decided to
return the drivers, but with ThomasW's input, I've
changed my mind.

Since I'm going to keep my samples, I'll test for
seal and if necessary apply the glue fix
that any consensus ultimately deems appropriate.
It would probably be easier on poor Chad if we
all effected home repair as opposed to presenting
him with a phalanx of driver replacement requests.

CDwitmer predicts zero probability of VC lock up
in the event of running glue. I assume then that
the Ava 15" does not have a pole piece that resides inside the VC former? I think this would be a rare condition, unless I'm missing something obvious. In any case, I think a deftly applied bead of black hot glue is a safe method, unless CD's zero probability prediction is correct. I know this is a driver beauty killer.

...I just used a piece of thin magnet wire to increase
probing resolution and was unable to find a complete
breech anywhere along the dustcap periphery on either of my 2 samples. Today I will construct a simple pressurization
rig to test for seal. Chad suggested that even with a badly botched dustcap attachment, the odds of a leak are minimal. I'm not sure I understand the physics of that, but there you go.

Dave

[Interious]

Conversation with Chad occured last week.

[ThomasW]

As long as the driver's operation is unaffected I see no reason to 'effect' a cure.

Obviously these drivers are all under warranty. And Chad has been extremely conscientious about customer service, even when it was obvious that a driver was damaged as a result of severe abuse, not mfging defects.

So my recommendation is use them as is. And if at some date in the future a problem arises Chad will attend to it.

[Interious]

I should note that my pressurization test reveals
that the defective dustcap driver does indeed
have a breech, but it is not large--perhaps
half the flow rate you would get through
a coffee stirrer.

The driver with what appears to be a
normal dustcap installation is airtight.

[ThomasW]

Well that's in need of a fix since it will be an issue if the driver is used in a sealed box.

Given the shipping weight of these drivers, I wonder if we can get info from Chad as to what might be appropriate for a DIY fix.

Dave, since you talked to him about this already, how about giving him a call?

[Interious]

I defer to ThomasW regarding using the drivers
and addressing problems if problems actually
arise.

But should anyone consider gluing the gap, which
I may do on my defective sample--perhaps
injecting black silicone caulking with a
syringe would work, if it's not too viscous
for injection.

[Interious]

ThomasW--Yes, I will call Chad.

[ThomasW]

Thanks Dave..... :T

Silicone seal can be thinned with Toluene or MEK (BTW, both are carcinogenic, volatile and sold at most home center stores. Note that acetone doesn't work for this).

Years ago we used to 'paint' thinned silicone on paper cones to mass-load them.

[Rolyasm]

Thanks for all the input. Since I am not very informed on how to test my drivers, maybe it's best if I just put a fix to them, if it is something as simple as glue. I care much less about the looks of the driver than the performance, so hot glue or whatever it takes is fine. Interious (Dave?) maybe you can just post what chad says and keep us updated. I would bet he would know what type of glueing substance to use. Is there a pressurization test I could do that is simple? I don't have a lot of the gadgets and tools that I'm sure you all have. Thanks.
Roly

[Dennis H]

I'd just hook them up and see if they work. Even if the glue seal is imperfect, you won't hurt them.

[Interious]

I just got off the phone with Chad, and he said exactly what I anticipated: He is more than happy to replace any problem drivers. He is rather adamant about this. I don't think he likes the idea of flawed AA products floating around in the field. That's a guess. I took him up on the offer and he is shipping
a new driver to replace the defective one. I'll make a swap with Fedex in a single stroke.

He says they simply do not replace many drivers at all and so therefore are not inundated with
replacement nightmares and ever accumulating
addendent costs. I would take him up on this offer.
Ascendent Audio (815) 477-2423.

Regarding Adhesives: Should you decide to effect repair yourself: AA uses a special cyanoacrylate for primary bonding. Chad did say that Silicone caulking will work fine. Common sense predicts that any compound that will seal the gap and adhere would be adequate, and indeed Chad's general attitude and comments reflect this.

In your case Rolyasm, I would clearly call Chad and arrange for replacement. The pressurization device I used was a strictly high-tech affair: A tupperware container with weather stripping affixed to the rim to make a seal on the cone. I cut a hole in bottom of the container to accomodate blowing and sucking. I confirmed the integrity of the seal by testing the driver known to be good.

It turns out that the breech in the bad driver was fairly substantial which means a positive indication was within the resolving power of my apparatus.
It is conceivable that a smaller breech may be more difficult to detect. I don't have a 15" enclosure on hand. If I did, I would have so mounted the driver and pressurized the enclosure with a bicycle pump.....etc, etc.

I would call Chad!

Regarding my distortion observations: I would ignore them, and I'm sorry for posting them. They were not rigorous. The general satisfaction with this driver far outweighs any casual, non-scientific
observations I've made.

I hope this is satisfactory to all.

Dave

[Rolyasm]

Thanks Dave,
I will give Chad a call manana and see what he recommends.
Roly