High SPL dome tweeter?

[thylantyr]

What is the forum favorite tweeter {under $500 ea.} that
gives you amazing sound quality but also offers higher SPL
than what you might encounter from the average dome
tweeter? :lol:

The reason for asking is. The line arrays projects are
spreading in cyberspace because people want the higher
SPL with their SQ, and it seems less people are interested
in making a higher SQL {SPL + SQ} system using
conventional designs {ie, 3 way} to compete with the
bigger line array in terms of impact {make sense ?} 8O

[JonMarsh]

I have to speculate about line arrays and SPL issues- seems like half the projects I see (especially at PE forum) are for line arrays with a bazillion cheap drivers- they will play loud, but if the driver isn't particularly linear at lower levels, even (often the case), there only real "advantage" is that they'll play loud...

Now, Line source speakers, properly implemented, may have some very desirable characterstics, particularly operating in quasi-nearfield over a wide range in a typical room, with SPL fall off that doesn't follow the normal square law with distance, but at half that rate. Problem is, maintaining that behavior over a wide frequency range, especially if you have tall ceilings and can't count on ceiling images to extend the LF response. In many cases, you can only tune the line array for smooth frequency respponse at one effective listening distance- at father distances, mids and trebel will predominate; closer, they'll be heavy in the lower midrange and bass.

Now, regarding tweeter linearity and favorite drivers, there's been a ton of discussion here, regarding many drivers, so the search engine at the forum is your friend...

[thylantyr]

I did search and got many hits on different tweeters.
Of those which one has the most SPL capability without
self destruction or compression :B :T

[AndrewM]

I have some older Focal TLR's I'll let go for a reasonable price...as long as you want the rest of the "kit" and spares I have with it

Andrew

[thylantyr]

I have to speculate about line arrays and SPL issues- seems like half the projects I see (especially at PE forum) are for line arrays with a bazillion cheap drivers- they will play loud, but if the driver isn't particularly linear at lower levels, even (often the case), there only real "advantage" is that they'll play loud...

The way I view a line array is simple. Just like any other
design it has it's own sonic signature, some love it, others
don't.

The second issue is driver choice. There is nothing wrong
with using cheap drivers if the design is well executed but
you may not get the sound level you want while keeping
distortion low. But if you make an array you can boost the SPL but keep distortion low. Someone on Diyaudio.com
wanted to make a headphone driver line array - :rofl:
I think it would be a fun project just because it's odd.

The NSB 49 cent drivers are famous on PE and
Diyaudio.com because they sound good with one simple
mod. Coat the cones to make it sound better. If you are
a good DIY'er make a phase plug out of wood, if you want
to kill someone with SPL insert coolant. I tried all these
mods, the results are 'eye opening' for a 49 cent driver.

I wouldn't use this driver in a normal system because
I want more SPL and low distortion and one of them isn't
going to give me that, but place 16 of them in a line array
and port the box and you have some interesting results
that will amaze the natives :T

I had some un-trained people comment that they sounded
like a $100 to $200 driver. :?? ... It just goes to show you that people percieve SQ differently.

I built the NSB/PT2 arrays for a friend and I'm still
tweaking the SQ with the Behringer and I using high
powered amp to drive it at low impedance. I'm too picky
to properly judge the sound quality but I think I can satisfy
most people with the sound. Nobody has complained yet
during audition and the system was not tuned yet. I need
to get the cheap measuring system up and running.

I think it's better to judge the loudspeaker system as a whole {source, amp, speaker, installation} than just assume
a 49 cent speaker can't possible sound good.

I think a Death Star array with 300 NSB's with coolant
would be cool ... :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Final thoughts. I wouldn't use the NSB/PT2 array as my reference system because I have my own crazy demons
that are never satisfied and I have to resort to stranger
designs to kill the evil demon :evil:

[JonMarsh]

I did search and got many hits on different tweeters.
Of those which one has the most SPL capability without
self destruction or compression :B :T

At what price? And keep in mind that one tweeter may more linear out around 110 dB because it hasn't quite run out of Xmax at 1 kHz, but be LESS linear overall at 106 dB, because it has more inductance modulation- which is more important to you? Oh yeah, and price? :W

Seriously, you do have to define your priorities carefully.

Budget bargains like the 27TDFC and H1212 really give the Millenium Excel a very good run for the money- especially does the RS28A- just look at some of the distortion overlay plots/comparisons.

But if you can crossover higher, say, 2500 (which I'm sceptical of for anything other than a dome mid), then a TC120dx2 will give an awful lot of output while staying clean. There's a reason Wilson Audio has used those for years. I wouldn't run them below about 1.8 kHz, even with my fancy-schmancy CE filter crossovers. Of course, you can't get those anymore- sometimes I'm glad when we buy a small stock of something we think of as special...

~Jon

[thylantyr]

Do you remember that ancient Focal T120 fiberglass dome?
Then they obsoleted it in favor of Kelvar? Well, have those ancient tweeters and there is an uncanny good sound from
that fiberglass tweeter, even today I was checking it out again. Without any exotic filtering, sounds awesome and
beats the kelvar hands down without exotic filtering when I
did auditions with it. Everyone picked the fiberglass.

Point is, you mentioned a good tweeter from Focal and it's
not available, deja-vu... What is the story with Focal,
are they selling technology not sound quality :rofl:

[Jim Holtz]

I have to disagree a bit...

Hi Jon,

Your comments regarding line arrays with the typical implementation of a lot of very inexpensive drivers with cheap dome tweeters is right on but a properly designed array following Jim Griffins white paper doesn’t suffer from any of the issues you’ve indicated. Rick Craig worked with Jim on the original Linus design and it’s grown to super high end designs from there.

I’ve had many speakers over the years including ones that were considered high end by the audio community and my Omegarrays absolutely blow them away. I also wouldn’t trade them for any of the di-pole, electrostatic or high end 3-way designs I’ve listened to either. Several of those designs are considered to be some of the best currently available.

Some of the benefits of a properly designed array include ultra low distortion, effortless dynamics and incredible detail. Yes, they can get very, very loud effortlessly but the real beauty is when you listen at normal volumes. Nearfield listening draws you into the music and makes you a part of the live performance better than any point source that I’ve ever heard. Yes, I can set at different distances if I choose and still have the same effect. They weren’t “tuned” for my listening position or my room.

Like all speakers, they benefit from getting them set up correctly. When I first got them, I had the setup screwed up. A little tweeking, adjusting the sub integration and upgrading electronics has turned a good sounding speaker into a great one, IMHO. I wish some of the early listeners would stop back again for a follow up listening session.

Anyway, just my $.02 worth. You really should listen to a properly designed array that is set up correctly. Take a detour through Iowa on one of those business trips to Minneapolis and you’re more than welcome to listen to mine.

Best regards,

Jim

Now, Line source speakers, properly implemented, may have some very desirable characterstics, particularly operating in quasi-nearfield over a wide range in a typical room, with SPL fall off that doesn't follow the normal square law with distance, but at half that rate. Problem is, maintaining that behavior over a wide frequency range, especially if you have tall ceilings and can't count on ceiling images to extend the LF response. In many cases, you can only tune the line array for smooth frequency respponse at one effective listening distance- at father distances, mids and trebel will predominate; closer, they'll be heavy in the lower midrange and bass.

[JonMarsh]

Do you remember that ancient Focal T120 fiberglass dome?
Then they obsoleted it in favor of Kelvar? Well, have those ancient tweeters and there is an uncanny good sound from
that fiberglass tweeter, even today I was checking it out again. Without any exotic filtering, sounds awesome and
beats the kelvar hands down without exotic filtering when I
did auditions with it. Everyone picked the fiberglass.

Point is, you mentioned a good tweeter from Focal and it's
not available, deja-vu... What is the story with Focal,
are they selling technology not sound quality :rofl:

The Kevlar version was something of a step back; more diaphragm resonance, and not nearly as good sound. The Tioxid version is pretty nice, becuase the oxide of titanium is stiff but dead, and seems to damp the inverted dome compared with a pure metal dome.

Problem is, Focal has withdrawn from supplying drivers to DIY market, so it's only "New Old Stock" around now.

~Jon

[JonMarsh]

Hi Jon,

Your comments regarding line arrays with the typical implementation of a lot of very inexpensive drivers with cheap dome tweeters is right on but a properly designed array following Jim Griffins white paper doesn’t suffer from any of the issues you’ve indicated. Rick Craig worked with Jim on the original Linus design and it’s grown to super high end designs from there.

I’ve had many speakers over the years including ones that were considered high end by the audio community and my Omegarrays absolutely blow them away. I also wouldn’t trade them for any of the di-pole, electrostatic or high end 3-way designs I’ve listened to either. Several of those designs are considered to be some of the best currently available.

Some of the benefits of a properly designed array include ultra low distortion, effortless dynamics and incredible detail. Yes, they can get very, very loud effortlessly but the real beauty is when you listen at normal volumes. Nearfield listening draws you into the music and makes you a part of the live performance better than any point source that I’ve ever heard. Yes, I can set at different distances if I choose and still have the same effect. They weren’t “tuned” for my listening position or my room.

Like all speakers, they benefit from getting them set up correctly. When I first got them, I had the setup screwed up. A little tweeking, adjusting the sub integration and upgrading electronics has turned a good sounding speaker into a great one, IMHO. I wish some of the early listeners would stop back again for a follow up listening session.

Anyway, just my $.02 worth. You really should listen to a properly designed array that is set up correctly. Take a detour through Iowa on one of those business trips to Minneapolis and you’re more than welcome to listen to mine.

Best regards,

Jim

Hello Jim,

Well, if I'm ever travelling near Iowa, I'll try to take a stab at that. I have heard Linus arrays, and "extended" Linus arrays (more drivers), and they had variable frequency response with distance, integrataion issues between the midwoofer and planar tweeter, and of course, the sonic signature of that tweeter. They would play moderately loud, but at 15 -18 feet from the speakers had a "shouty" quality due to predominance in the midrange. This was in a room with 11 foot ceilings- like my own listening room.

Glad you've found what sounds like nirvanna to you!

Regards,

Jon

[Jim Holtz]

Jon,

That is an open invitation and you are very welcome.

The state of the line array development has evolved a great deal since the Linus arrays. Subsequent designs with much, much better drivers and crossover refinement have been a huge step forward.

My listening room is 15'x20' with 9' ceilings. I sit 15' back but the sound varies little from about 8' - 15' away from the arrays. The omegarrays are (10) AC130 MKII 5" drivers and 8 Fountek JP2 ribbons per cabinet with a 12" AV12 in the base of each cabinet.

I've had a number of listeners from all over the country come to listen to them. Since I made the upgrades and refined the setup the comments have been that they are extremly smooth with an almost "tuby" sound to them. Anyway, I'm getting off track but I wanted to clarify that not all arrays have the issues mentioned.

Best regards,

Jim

Hello Jim,

Well, if I'm ever travelling near Iowa, I'll try to take a stab at that. I have heard Linus arrays, and "extended" Linus arrays (more drivers), and they had variable frequency response with distance, integrataion issues between the midwoofer and planar tweeter, and of course, the sonic signature of that tweeter. They would play moderately loud, but at 15 -18 feet from the speakers had a "shouty" quality due to predominance in the midrange. This was in a room with 11 foot ceilings- like my own listening room.

Glad you've found what sounds like nirvanna to you!

Regards,

Jon

[Scott Simonian]

Is this one any good?

http://www.gr-research.com/drivers/gr_t6.htm

[JonMarsh]

Is this one any good?

http://www.gr-research.com/drivers/gr_t6.htm

Looks like a lot of smoothing in those plots. Fs is a bit higher than I like...

Compare it to the 27TDFC and H1212- how do you think the flatness compares?

More important, I haven't seen any distortion plots on these. It's speculation to make any comment... you might do what I've done with many other tweeters, and buy a set, and meausre them...

The sensitivity is quite high, but that may indicate a short voice coil, which would imply limited Xmax, and limited outut at lower frequencies. Only way to know is to measure.

[JonMarsh]

Jon,

That is an open invitation and you are very welcome.

The state of the line array development has evolved a great deal since the Linus arrays. Subsequent designs with much, much better drivers and crossover refinement have been a huge step forward.

My listening room is 15'x20' with 9' ceilings. I sit 15' back but the sound varies little from about 8' - 15' away from the arrays. The omegarrays are (10) AC130 MKII 5" drivers and 8 Fountek JP2 ribbons per cabinet with a 12" AV12 in the base of each cabinet.

I've had a number of listeners from all over the country come to listen to them. Since I made the upgrades and refined the setup the comments have been that they are extremly smooth with an almost "tuby" sound to them. Anyway, I'm getting off track but I wanted to clarify that not all arrays have the issues mentioned.

Best regards,

Jim

That sounds a little like what I've got brewing in my Saint Saens project, (8 JP2 per side, RD50's, Extremis 6 or Peerless drivers (under test), and planning stacked dipole subs with the RS12 subwoofers.

[thylantyr]

Not that anyone cares


... but my NSB/PT2 does wonders because ...

A. Ported the midranges
B. Fully active
C. Adcom 200w/ch on PT2, QSC 2400w on the NSB
D. Behringer DCX2496

For $250 shipped, no tax, the DCX is great! Beats the pants off analog crossovers because you can do so much
tweaking and I've tweaked the NSB array to sound much
better than using stock passive crossovers like many people use in their cheap arrays.

The PT2's actually sound great with LR48 @ 1.5khz, but
I'm using 1.75khz, it really improves the stereo image
vs. using ~2.5khz and the LR48 gets rid of the less desirable sound from the PT2 you hear with the lesser
slopes and lower crossover point.

The NSB's with 6 coats of lacquer sounds best LR24 @
2.25khz, any higher and you can start to hear the 'crud'
but it really doesn't bother anyone except the golden ears.
:twisted:

I find that bad recordings are really amplified with a line array, I seem to tweak the line array for every CD I play,
mostly I adjust the midrange level up or down slightly,
for low volume I boost treble, cut some midrange and midbass. The ported midranges can really give you some boom.

For some metal music I zero out the settting and crank high SPL and make people angry :twisted:

I need a subwoofer to better judge the system as whole
and I need to get unlazy and get the cheap speaker
measuring setup running to see how the in room behavior
is.

The cheap array is no without fault, I can hear things that
I want better but others who audition who are less critical
or are not into audio the same way I am, are completely
satisfied and blown away.

You have to remember, these are 4" speakers with
a 'nothing special' motor design. 49 cents. If you want
better do the Dayton array for $30 per driver.. /hehe

This is a fun project though, to take cheap azz speakers
{except PT2} and make something from what initially
appears to be nothing. If one has a bigger budget room
for improvement is definetely there.

[jdybnis]

Thylantyr,

I've heard rumors floating around the net that you've been collecting parts for the mother of all line arrays :twisted: ...something about a tower of Lambda Apollo woofers and a some Stage Accompaniment ribbons. Can you confirm these allegations

[Dennis H]

Errrr.... no offense Thylantyr but get some measurement gear and get back to us about how wonderful your line arrays are. Yeah, I know you've said on other forums you're beyond all that stuff (golden ear) but really.... are we supposed to take any speakers seriously on THIS forum when they've never even been measured?

[Davey]

Dennis,

Measurements only confirm what we already know.

Davey.

[thylantyr]

Thylantyr,

I've heard rumors floating around the net that you've been collecting parts for the mother of all line arrays :twisted: ...something about a tower of Lambda Apollo woofers and a some Stage Accompaniment ribbons. Can you confirm these allegations

I have;
Ten Apollos
Eight SA's

Still collecting parts.

I don't have;
Big room
money

I'm always re-evaluating what I want to do because of
those issues. I want to combine art, SQ, and SPL, not
easy.

:rofl:

The right thing to do is make a simple 3 way and use
the extra speakers to build some good surrounds and center channel, that would be sweet actually. But I have
this strange desire for mega SQL 2 channel audio.

This thread I started was to find a sane solution for
HT surround/center, but if I had more cash I already
know which tweeter I'd be using. :evil:

[thylantyr]

Errrr.... no offense Thylantyr but get some measurement gear and get back to us about how wonderful your line arrays are. Yeah, I know you've said on other forums you're beyond all that stuff (golden ear) but really.... are we supposed to take any speakers seriously on THIS forum when they've never even been measured?

I plan to make some measurements to verify if my ears are
going out of calibration :lol:

I can tweak this array by ear at low to normal SPL but it's
harder to tweak it at high SPL by ear. These arrays in a
small room is pretty crazy really.

I did a one tower full SPL test outside from about 100 feet
away and I liked what I heard from the midrange and
tweeters.

Look at the Linus array, six PT2 and MCM $15 midwoofers,
when that array hit cyber I found no bad reviews. I'm
using ten PT2's and sixteen NSB's ported, works fine
and people who auditioned haven't complained.

The only person complaining is myself because that design
won't satisfy my demons. If it did my audio quest would
be over.

Keep in mind, this array is for a friend who has nothing
for audio and has little money, it's as perfect project for
him.