What makes these speakers sound so good?

[Jim85IROC]

This is a very simple, complicated question.

Also, my apologies for forcing Madisound readers to read this thread twice, but I'm hoping to get feedback from a broader audience by posting in both places. Anyway...

I listened to a pair of B&W 803S and 804S speakers on Friday and I was absolutely blown away by them. This is the first time I've ever been blown away like this. I've listened to Sonus Faber Cremonas, a lot of Lynn and Thiels, Krell Lat 2s, and plenty of others. Of all the speakers I've listened to, every time I went back home to my old Boston Acoustics T830s and was still very happy with their sound. This time though, it was a night and day difference. The B&Ws provided a clarity that allowed me to easily pick out any instrument to listen to, while with most other speakers I've heard, only the prominent instruments are easy to follow along with. The rest just blend together. The dynamics of the speakers were also exceptional. Drums had an attack that sounded real. Imaging was the best I've heard. All instruments were clearly placed, and vocals actually placed higher up than instruments.

My best guess is that the rigid kevlar midrange and the aluminum tweeter are providing a higher level of detail that I'm not used to hearing with most of the paper/poly speakers that I listen to.

Has anybody else heard these speakers and can comment on their sound? Is there something really special about how these speakers sound, or is it possible for me to approach that type of quality with affordable DIY drivers? I've been planning on a Dayton RS 180 & Seas 27 TDFC 2-way for a while now and I'm wondering just how close I can get to what I heard on Friday.

[Dennis H]

My guess, if it was a "night and day difference," is they were well set up in a very good room. Probably other speakers would also sound good in that setup.

[JonMarsh]

And "setup in a good room" can mean a variety of things, including the associated source equipment, amplification, room placment, etc. Not to discount the performance of the B&W's; I use to sell those in the 70's. I would certainly pick them over many other consumer brands available. Rigid diaphram drivers are a "good thing" if implmented well, but it takes more care in the crossover.

For example, just for occasional testing and comparison, I have a Sony HT reciever, and a Sony DVD player. Now and then I'll connect one of the current projects up to them... understand the results are not nearly the same as running through my Ayre preamp, Benchmark DAC, and Ayre or Aragon power amplification with Cardas cables? Even something as simple as a good 8" two way is capable of delineating those differences quite audibly... but my idea of a good 8" two way isn't exactly mainstream, either.

Besides the speaker quality itself, the next most important thing is the room placement and setup. Next probably is the quality of the soruce unit; then the amplifier, then the interconnects and cables. All play their role...

~Jon

[Jim85IROC]

I certainly can't discredit the differences in electronics, although I've always felt that as long as you're comparing one good quality setup to another, the electronics seem to play a very minor role. In all cases (my personal equipment perhaps not withstanding), the speakers I listened to were being driven by quality solid state electronics, and in most cases, although in different rooms, were all positioned similarly. Position was approximately 1 meter from the back wall, and at least 1 meter from the nearest side wall, though the B&Ws were in a very large room, so one of them was many meters from a side wall.

My setup, unfortunately, is in a horrible room. My living room is very small, so because of that, I have no choice but to put my speakers nearly up against the back wall. I don't mind the extra bass, but I'm sure it's not doing me any favors for imaging.

However, I have listened to my speakers in other environments, and their sonic characteristic really didn't change much. Overall, I think I'm hearing the differences between a $600 pair of speakers and a $4,000 pair. I'm hoping to find out what specifically gives them their dynamics and clarity so that I can focus my DIY projects toward getting a similar type of sound.

Basically, what I'm hoping to achieve, is a similar sort of overwhelming dynamics, clarity and imaging abilities with my DIY speakers as what I heard with those B&Ws... even if I can't achieve that sort of result in my room.

[cjd]

For one, you can voice them rather on the hot side. Unless B&W has changed recently, that is... I can't listen to B&W's for long.

Stiff drivers (metal or composite) seem to do a better job of separating all the various bits of information that they're trying to convey and keeping it separated clearly. Call it accuracy if you like (I think that's what it is).

If you are placing up against the wall, customize the crossover for that. You will kill imaging and staging otherwise. You'll boost frequencies oddly, and most certainly cause a loss in perceived detail. Because, it's not just bass you're bumping! A lot of (if not most) primary instrument voicing is in the range that will get bumped when placed near-boundary. The natural harmonics will not, and these are the things that help us differentiate between instruments! Double whammy against your setup at home. I'm surprised you don't find more speakers in the wide world out there to be more detailed.

I would still move them out from the wall. You may want to consider nearfield listening, which takes a different setup.

C

[Jim85IROC]

since I'm planning to mount my crossovers externally, perhaps I should try to build a pair without baffle step compensation (or at least not much) as well as a pair with.

Thanks for the suggestions!

[dawaro]

Jon I noticed in your post you stated the cables as being a benifactor in the quality of sound from your set up. I am going to open a can of worms here, with your electical background do you really feel there is that big of a difference in cables?? I realize this forum is sponsored by DIYCable but I really would like a subjective answer.

[JonMarsh]

This forum is sponsored by the owner of CAT Cables.

Aside from what I hear in my system, I can assure you there are also very measurable differences in cables. (not all cables, but definitely some). Utlimately I picked what I like the sound of best, but what I investigate is also influenced by electrical specifications, and knowing my own requirements. There are cables which becuase of their construction, such as braiding technques to lower inductance, will exhibit superior electrical performance on a network or component analyzer, like my HP4192. This is conjecture, but due to physical properties- at 0.031 uH/ft loopback inductance, it's the lowest I know of in the business, and the lowest Cardas makes. Couple that with a net cable AWG of 5, and it's easy to say that it's a bit over the top. I've heard from one friend who uses Golden Reference also that Nordquist Valhalla is in pretty much the same category sonically, but theyr'e even much more expensive.

It's up to every individual to decide whether those differences are worthwhile or worth paying for... even used. Certainly, there's a lot of other things to address first. But at some point, when you're trying to make judgements about different components and aspects of your system, there's some things you don't want to be second guessin, in my opinion. YMMV.

~Jon

[denverdoc]

Jim,

I am certainly no expert but will throw in my 2 cents worth anyway--first I agree with CJD's assessment of metal drivers. I also believe that over the years B&W had done a helluva lot of research on cabinetry--and based their "matrix" series if I recall on a honeycomb approach to increasing rigidity. Not sure what the innards of the models you mentioned are like, but in a sealed box, the backwave has to go somewhere. It just doesn't get turned to heat that easily. (Which is one of the principal reasons I am electing to go dipole with my own DIY project.) So at the risk of stating the obvious, the B&W cabinets may have also played a role in the clarity you describe is all I'm trying to suggest.
Best of luck on your project,
John

[denverdoc]

Jim,

In the afterthought department, if you are forced into having the speakers against the wall, and plan on being there a while, wonder what others here think of building them in-wall. I know theres a lot of crap out there designed for in-wall set-ups, but given the two alternatives, and the assumption of excellent construction technique on Jim's part, is this a viable alternative--gets some big baffles for free!
John

[JonMarsh]

I certainly can't discredit the differences in electronics, although I've always felt that as long as you're comparing one good quality setup to another, the electronics seem to play a very minor role. In all cases (my personal equipment perhaps not withstanding), the speakers I listened to were being driven by quality solid state electronics, and in most cases, although in different rooms, were all positioned similarly. Position was approximately 1 meter from the back wall, and at least 1 meter from the nearest side wall, though the B&Ws were in a very large room, so one of them was many meters from a side wall.

My setup, unfortunately, is in a horrible room. My living room is very small, so because of that, I have no choice but to put my speakers nearly up against the back wall. I don't mind the extra bass, but I'm sure it's not doing me any favors for imaging.

However, I have listened to my speakers in other environments, and their sonic characteristic really didn't change much. Overall, I think I'm hearing the differences between a $600 pair of speakers and a $4,000 pair. I'm hoping to find out what specifically gives them their dynamics and clarity so that I can focus my DIY projects toward getting a similar type of sound.

Basically, what I'm hoping to achieve, is a similar sort of overwhelming dynamics, clarity and imaging abilities with my DIY speakers as what I heard with those B&Ws... even if I can't achieve that sort of result in my room.

Comparing the Nautilus series three ways against any two way system is something of an appliges to figs comparison.... if you wanted to do something in the like that in the DIY area, you'd be looking at something like a comparison of the B&W's against an Orion, or at least some three way system. which is put together by a competent designer. Because of the complexity and expense involved, there's not nearly as many "DIY" larger systems, and not that many which are widely built. The most widely built or slightly modified system I can think of is the Orion, which is something of a different critter from the B&W's, but will give them a good run for the money, and then some.

[Jim85IROC]

Thanks for some of the insight guys. It's been interresting to hear all of the different opinions. In addition to posting this, I also decided to read B&W's white paper on the new 800 series. I would highly reccomend this to all of you guys. While it's not possible to apply a lot of their information to the DIY world, it does provide a tremendous amount of insight toward their design.