Dipoles vs Boxes- Audio Critic Orion Review

[JonMarsh]

There's still a lot of folks that have never heard dipole systems, and probably don't get what the fuss is all about.

There's a review of the Orion system by the AudioCritic posted at LinkwitzLab site. It's certainly worth a read...

Now, I DON'T want to get into any discussion about the philosophy or credibiltiy or opinions of the folks at the AudioCritic; they've been around a long time, and egendered a lot of discussion, some of it fairly negative at time.

What is relevant is the degree to which they were surprised and "blown away" by the performance of the Orion; it broke their paradigm for what they expected out of speakers, and at what price points. Doesn't address SPL limitations, but that's OK....

Recommended reading if you haven't ever heard a dipole system...


Audio Critic Orion Review


Yeah, this is a troll post. :B

~Jon

[TacoD]

interesting read, maybe I should try it myself.

[taz13]

You can almost see the reviewers jaw drop. Good article, but I am surprised that the reviewer called the Orions

the pursuit of new and different concepts

. But yeah for people who have not heard dipoles, they should read that review and then find a set of dipoles to listen to.
Whats the guy in black think of the review, I saw twin was online and sort of expected a comment from him.

[JonMarsh]

Well, remember, old Evil Twin is the guy doing the Saint-Saens dipole, competing with the team led by ThomasW for the low buck dipole with baby maggies and Stryke Dipole 15's. He's going to have his work cut out for himself, improving on the Arvo Part, espeically if those new Peerless 8's pan out. Hehehe...

I hear Paul H already has his Stryke's; I'd be curious to see some nearfield plots on them, and what the VC inductance looks like.

[taz13]

Well as much as I want to do dipoles, right now my main project is the M8ta and I am still trying to figure out which combo to use. But I am sure liking what I see on the Saint-Saens. I fear, no I know that I have been lured to the dark side.

[cjd]

I think this is easily summed up by my experience at DIY Chicago last year (2004).

I arrived with a set of dipoles. Small. Cheap. Buyout drivers (4" mid, 3/8" mylar tweet), leftover components in the crossover.

In fact, there was a gentleman with a set of speakers he built that started arguing that his were unquestionably the cheapest at the event. No, not quite. His $60 was cheap. My $10 was cheaper. (that's for two).

Now, these obviously had no bass whatsoever. But, they were the standard for far longer than they should have been for clarity and some level of "magic". Some pieces sounded good ONLY on dipoles (evidenced later when we got to a couple other dipoles, including one digitally crossed with a W18/Millenium/XLS combo) - hollow and dead otherwise (I find similar discussions in the linked review, which is interesting - maybe my ears are better than I think) There was a magic that stuck around. I got comments about how nothing else had quite captured that magic when we were into systems costing $500+.

Which is why I know without a doubt that I *will* be building a dipole system for serious music. And it's gotta be dipole fairly high in response - 4000Hz would be OK to cross to a monopole tweeter. Haven't found my drivers yet.

As always though, fun stuff.

C

[Evil Twin]

Once you have tasted the power of a dipole system to resolve music in space, there's no going back, except for occasional special exemptions and tasks- one probably wouldn't build a disco sound system based on the Orion, for example...

[Doug Fraser]

Saint-Saens

Evil Twin:

I hardly wait for the start of the Saint-Saens for I too can start to feel the power of the dark side!

Evil Twin, It is fair to say that dipoles and IB subs are from the same family? The reason I say this is that both techniques have the speaker driving into a very large but separate air volumes. Albeit that the distance from front to back for a dipole is quite small whereas the distance (front to back) for a IB sub is quite large. What strikes me as being similar is that the both techniques do not have to pressurize a box to any great extent. Is this what contributes to the sound quality? Both groups rave about the clarity. This intrigues me.

Evil Twin, if I may make a request, please consider designing the Saint-Saens to be a very high end sounding speaker that can produce a reasonable volume level. They do not have to play at disco levels but now and again I do like to crank the volume level in a room that is 12' x 20' with vaulted ceilings to 11'.

I see from your designs that cost is usually a key consideration in the selection of components (except in the design of the cross over) however please consider relaxing your cost controls if it results in a very fine speaker being created.

My final question is that I see from the AVRO Heavy Metal Testing thread that Thomas' AVRO's are reasonably close to the fireplace. Would it be OK to place a dipole 3 feet from the rear wall and 6' to 10' in from the side walls?

I respectfully await the start of the Saint-Saens Oh Dark Lord.

Regards,
Doug

[ThomasW]

Doug,

The limiting factor in the Saint-Saens will be how loud the RD-50 can be driven. Since we limit it's passband (~600Hz-5kHz) there should be no major problems with fairly high output. Now some people are using 150Hz XO points, that significantly limits how loud they can play.

When we started experimenting with this hybrid dipole concept I built the first pair of test baffles. Those used RD75's and a line array of 8" Eton midwoofers. The fear was that the Etons would be the weak link. That proved to be a false fear. The Etons ended up significantly more efficient than the RD-75.

At no point do our designs sacrifice sound quality for low cost. We cherry pick components that offer the best possible sound quality for the money invested. We don't however get silly trying for the final 5% of absolute 'best' performance, since doing that can easily double or triple the overall cost.

My Arvo's are ~4' from the back wall. That's optimal. I think you'll be fine with 3'.

[denverdoc]

As in the better late than dept, nice to see SL get such homage from Audio Critic. But, damn, if the audio press had paid more attention to him back in the days of Audio Artistry, he might still be in biz and reaping some real financial reward for his dedication to pushing the leading edge of audio futher into the void.
John

[Paul H]

I hear Paul H already has his Stryke's; I'd be curious to see some nearfield plots on them, and what the VC inductance looks like.

I'll be happy to do those plots and share them. However, while I have ordered the drivers, any rumours that I actually have them are incorrect. :cry:

Paul

[JonMarsh]

Well, some parts of the audio industry did pay some attention to him, such as Stereophile, with Shannon Dickason's very favorable review of the Dvorak and the Beethoven, the latter which was voted 1998 Stereophile Speaker of the Year. Nonetheless, the Dvorak underwent some evolution, too, from things learned in the Beethoven. Keep in mind that the Beethovens, which inlcuded amplification for the subwoofer section, was ~ $24,750 per pair.

OTOH, he's considerably improved the selection of drivers since then; for example, the Beethoven used a Scanspeak Kevlar 8" midwoofer for the upper range; personally, I didn't find they made a very good midrange driver, with a serious energy storage cone mode at 800 Hz (I compared this driver with the M8a in the AudioXpress article - in fact, I just threw out a couple of pairs of them as part of my spring cleaning).

So, Sigried has come a long way since then- the Orion is a much better performing speaker than the Beethoven, aside from sheer SPL. It even measures better.

This is not to denigrate his previous work unduly, just to note that there has been real progress in Linkwitz's creations, and not subtly so.

[mante]

Orion vs. the Arvo Part IV

Hi Evil Twin,

How would you compare the sound quality of the Arvo Part to the Orion? Also, are we waiting on the new 8" Peerless to try in my Arvo's?

Young Padawan

[Evil Twin]

Hi Evil Twin,

How would you compare the sound quality of the Arvo Part to the Orion? Also, are we waiting on the new 8" Peerless to try in my Arvo's?

Young Padawan

Did not someone say all comparisons are odious?


If there was any particular guiding "force" at work in the design of the Arvo Part (besides doing the not well known (in the USA) Estonian composer justice), it was increasing the power of the force... i.e., more SPL. That, and simplifying the design through elimination of an electornic crossover, through trying to solve more issues through acoustics, rather than EQ in a complex active crossover.

That's why the front panel layout is asymmetrical with regards to the midwoofers and tweeter.

That's why there are two 8" woofers, crossed over at 175 Hz, instead of one crossed over at 120 Hz.

That's why there are two TC2+ 12" woofers with 19.3 mm Xmax and Faraday rings to reduce VC inductance and IM distortion from 200 Hz on down, instead of two Peerless 10" XLS woofers with 12.5 mm Xmax and much, much higher VC inductance (many subwoofer drivers were evaluated and found wanting before settling on the TC2+).

That's why the core panels are made with six layers of laminated HDF, providing a strength/stiffness comparable or superior to Medite 3-D.


Perhaps you are familiar with the old saying? If some's good, more's better, and too much is just enough? Except, of course, when it comes to distortion...

The interesting question might be, could one build and sell these and make money at the same price as Sigfried sells a complete finished Orion system - $5300.


Yes, we do hope to evaluate the Peerless Exclusive series nomex cone Phase Plug 8" woofer as soon as it becomes available in the USA, as it may provide distortion performance comparable to the W22 (possibly even better) at less than half the price.

There are other design improvement under consideration, like a waveguide launch for the tweeter, to control directivity in the lower range better, and further reduce distortion.

Of course, if the design is never finished, then it will be impossible to compare... a decided drawback to the current rate of progress.

[mante]

Dear Evil Twin,

You had me shaking in my boots and ready to run for my light saber until you said; "Of course, if the design is never finished, then it will be impossible to compare... a decided drawback to the current rate of progress." I could go from a young Padawan to an old Padawan never to have seen the light

"six layers of laminated HDF, providing a strength/stiffness comparable or superior to Medite 3-D." Even on my planet, these will be heavy. My wife is currently in the operating room having back surgery, who will assist me in moving these.....

Good luck, and happy testing!

An Older Padawan

[Evil Twin]

Dear Evil Twin,

You had me shaking in my boots and ready to run for my light saber until you said; "Of course, if the design is never finished, then it will be impossible to compare... a decided drawback to the current rate of progress." I could go from a young Padawan to an old Padawan never to have seen the light

"six layers of laminated HDF, providing a strength/stiffness comparable or superior to Medite 3-D." Even on my planet, these will be heavy. My wife is currently in the operating room having back surgery, who will assist me in moving these.....

Good luck, and happy testing!

An Older Padawan

To put this in perspective, the Orions are quoted as weighing 60 lB, and there have been comments from time to time about the front panel being a bit of a flexible flyer.

The Arvo's have a front panel thickness of 1.5" - those are six 1/4" layers. I've never weighed one of the current ones, but I wouldn't be surprised if they're about 100 lB or more. Probably in the same range as the M8ta, considering all the driver weight.

My sympathies if your wife is in for back surgery; I had a microdiskectomy in 2003, but am doing fairly well since then.

[Davey]

They have back problems in the dark side? ET, you really need to work on dipoles exclusively....they're much lighter....and safer.

I think a 60lb Orion was probably made from plywood. A few Orion's I've seen were MDF-based and a bit heavier.

Davey.

[Evil Twin]

They have back problems in the dark side? ET, you really need to work on dipoles exclusively....they're much lighter....and safer.

I think a 60lb Orion was probably made from plywood. A few Orion's I've seen were MDF-based and a bit heavier.

Davey.

Better just a back problem than an artificial hand, for example...


I would expect you're right about the weight of an Orion with MDF; with crossovers the Arvo's will probably net ~ 125 to 140 lb. That's not light, but the X1's were about 350 lb per side, with about the same floorprint.

I'm pondering Beethoven style dipole woofer enclosures for the Saint-Saens, with 4 TC2+ I don't expect they'll be light, either.

[Dennis H]

The most important tool for old-guy, bad-back DIYers.

[Adz]

Did not someone say all comparisons are odious?


If there was any particular guiding "force" at work in the design of the Arvo Part (besides doing the not well known (in the USA) Estonian composer justice), it was increasing the power of the force... i.e., more SPL. That, and simplifying the design through elimination of an electornic crossover, through trying to solve more issues through acoustics, rather than EQ in a complex active crossover.

That's why the front panel layout is asymmetrical with regards to the midwoofers and tweeter.

That's why there are two 8" woofers, crossed over at 175 Hz, instead of one crossed over at 120 Hz.

That's why there are two TC2+ 12" woofers with 19.3 mm Xmax and Faraday rings to reduce VC inductance and IM distortion from 200 Hz on down, instead of two Peerless 10" XLS woofers with 12.5 mm Xmax and much, much higher VC inductance (many subwoofer drivers were evaluated and found wanting before settling on the TC2+).

I'm sorry for asking a similar question, but what are the expected differences in sonic quality between the tweeter and midranges in the two models (the Arvo and the Orion) that would potentially have one choose one driver over the other.

[Doug Fraser]

Jon:

The links to the build details in the Arvo Pärt MkIII "Heavy Metal" Testing.. thread (dimensions, cross over design etc) are now dead. Can you please post them again? Perhaps in the Arvo thread similar to the detail you posted in the Modula MTM 1 Design and Construction Details thread?

Thanks
Doug

[JonMarsh]

I'm sorry for asking a similar question, but what are the expected differences in sonic quality between the tweeter and midranges in the two models (the Arvo and the Orion)?

That's a very reasonable question - and I have to say in many regards, they're pretty similar. I'm not probably the objective reference to answer that question, of course, but ThomasW, who has the most experience with Arvo's, has not heard Orions, to the best of my knowledge. Denverdoc has heard Thomas's, but I don't know if he's heard Orions, either.

The Arvo uses a lower crossover frequency - 1250 Hz vs. 1400-1500Hz quoted for the Orion,

The Orion uses a W22, which has lower non-linear distortion in the bottom end than the M8a- but I don't run the M8a as low, and there's two of them, so the midrange is what I would call rather "effortless" - quite different than the MTM's with the M8a, IMO, both becuase of diople behavior and not handling the lower frequencies.

Both drivers are used exclusively in a pistonic region, but are getting close to the area where energy storage becomes an issue (both start to have problems visible in ETC testing at 1400 Hz and above, which is why I cross at ~1250, 8th order); that's why I'm interested to see how the Peerless Nomex Phase plug drivers look, especially linear distortion as well as nonlinear distortion in the upper midrange. Most 8's really aren't usable this high. 7's would be better, but suffer in cone area drastically- `2 typical 6-1/2 or 7's roughly equalling the Sd of the larger 8" drivers (larger? well, frame sizes vary from 8" up to 9", 8.5 being typical).

The Arvo is a taller source in the power region- 125 Hz to 250 Hz is covered by both the 12's and the 8's, as there's a fair amount of overlap between the 12" drivers and the 8's- perhaps a little more authority and body there? Less floor bounce interaction. Most 12's shouldn't be used that high, but the TC2+ does have low distortion even above 100 Hz, unlike many others (DPL12, for example). I tested many 12's... fortunately Monte Kay's testing helped me eliminate some candidates.

They do well with ensemble jazz, but also with larger scale works (symphonic), and what really surprised me was how much I liked the sound for HT... though they're not a very HT friendly speaker, given the size and spacing issues. Since I rotated my CRT rig onto a different wall (narrower), they wouldn't be practical in my room. And they were ravishing on vocals, especially some of my favorites like Colleen Sexton, Alison Kraus, Jane Monheit, Maire Brennan, Jonatha Brookes, and that old standby, Sarah McLachlan. Even dipoles without much bass extension just do a wonderful job on vocals, in my experience- which is where a lot of the music is, isn't it?

The Orion also uses a different tweeter, the Millenium Excel; I've been very happy with the SS9800 in the Arvo's, it's quite transparent, but not metal sounding- like the other SS tweeters with the SD1 motor, distortion is pretty low, and this one is quite flat from well below 1 kHz on up. I may build up a crossover to try the Millenium, too, as I don't really have a home for the set I bought for testing- it tests reasonably well, by MarkK's tests, but doesn't blow everything else away. I'm still wondering how close to the Millenium sound one can get with a carefully designed crossover for the 27TDFC. I'm sure Davey has a pretty good idea with his budget dipole design...

[JonMarsh]

The most important tool for old-guy, bad-back DIYers.

OK, Dennis, that's one way to start, but you should see the appliance furniture dolly I have.... belt rollers, clamping strap and winch, it is DELUXE!! Had to get it in order to move my X1 bass cabinets around. ops:

(there I go again, braggin about my expensive tools).
:lol:

[AndrewM]

Sheesh you guys are amateurs, you obviously haven't seen the new series from Nissan yet;



:B

Andrew

[JonMarsh]

Jon:

The links to the build details in the Arvo Pärt MkIII "Heavy Metal" Testing.. thread (dimensions, cross over design etc) are now dead. Can you please post them again? Perhaps in the Arvo thread similar to the detail you posted in the Modula MTM 1 Design and Construction Details thread?

Thanks
Doug

Good idea, though I don't know why they'd be dead, unless my hosting site is just off the air for maintenance. There is a lot of rambling discussion in that thread, so a dedicated thread with some focus would be a good idea. Keep in mind the current version is still "experimental", and I don't have the finish stuff documented yet, though I have a nice little stack of Bolivian Rosewood (Pau Ferro) to do the job...

[denverdoc]

So, Sigried has come a long way since then- the Orion is a much better performing speaker than the Beethoven, aside from sheer SPL. It even measures better.

Jon,

Yes undoubtedly. But how much evolution have David Wilson's designs come through since the original "contraption" (for want of a better word) make the scene--selling for about 25 large as well in's its original form if I recall. S'phile gave him a big push, too. Guess I am just whining a bit. Not to cast any aspersions at Wilson whatsoever as this is not my intent in the comparison. May have been just a matter of timing, or biz saavy, or any of a hundred other factors--just wishing life were a little more fair. Silly I know.
John S

[JonMarsh]

Oh, I wouldn't say silly. Linkwitz is much more of an innovator that I think Wilson has been. Wilson is probably a lot more astute at marketing and business, which is what you need ot make a viable enterprise. I have a lot of respect for anyone that makes a go ot it and puts a head over their roof with their own business- you wouldn't believe how hard these people work (well, maybe you would, but most of the people I know in "corporate jobs" wouldn't.

Some of the resistance to the Beethoven may be the footprint required with the diopole woofer cabinets. Perhaps the size, compared to a Watt Puppy, was an issue. I don't have any idea how well recieved the smaller models form Audio Artistry were, like the Vivaldi- that's what the Arvo Part started out as, sort of Vivaldi Klone, only quite a bit different. It's still a little amazing to me that no one else has really taken this concept and run with it ("conventional" dynamic drivers in a dipole arrangement), since it's a big part of the sound and attraction of traditional panel speakers, like Magneplanar, Acoustat, Quad, Martin Logan, etc.

When you go to Hybrid electrostats, you start to lose part of that magic- imagine putting a stat panel in a monopole box. Oh yeah, that's what a lot of folks do with RD drivers.... :roll:

~Jon

[capslock]

Well, there's sort of a Phoenix knock-off using 1 Neo3-PDR, 2 Neo 8 and a vented box (shame!) sub with an Audax HT300Z4 driver http://www.audax-speaker.de/pro30d.htm

Even though there was quite some discussion after the K&T article on various forums, I don't think Rainer is selling too many kits.

[Dennis H]

A bit off topic....

Jon or Capslock, have you seen or heard any of the AudioTechnology (Skaaning) midwoofs? Maybe a test in one of the European magazines? They are expensive little devils but they have nice, smooth midrange curves and I've heard a couple of (subjective) claims that they can be crossed pretty high. Unfortunately they don't provide impedance or distortion data. I wonder if they use a typical soft poly cone to get the smooth response? Also I wonder if they have the typical Scanspeak 800 Hz impedance bobble?

http://www.flexunits.com/iz.asp?id=4|a|135|||

[capslock]

A Skaaning unit was supposedly tested around 2001, most likely in Klang & Ton magazine, as it is not in the review list of Hobby Hifi. I don't seem to have that article, unfortunately. I am sure Per Skaaning can send you a scan of the article as well as other data.

They use mag filled cones, as far as I know, with various degrees of filler depending of the application, so they are not your typical soft soft cones. Their motor designs, both overhung and underhung, are impressive, so I would expect low motor distortion. They seem to use faraday sleeving around the pole piece as well as the outer pole plate.

I am not sure what good this will do. If I remember correctly from my electrodynamics classes, a conductive cylinder placed inside a coil, and not substantially smaller in diameter than the coil, will perfectly mirror the current and hence, in a perfect world, there is no need for the outer shielding, which actually is not as effective even in a perfect world (the reason being that the field on the outside is much less uniform).

[Dennis H]

Thanks Capslock. FWIW, I just reread Troels' paper about designing his hybrid dipole. He liked the 18cm C-Quenze but he thought the carbon Scanspeak was better and the Seas Excel better yet. And he was crossing pretty high, like 2.5K, so that's higher than an ideal crossover for the Seas. I keep looking for something better than the Seas in the 1K-3K region but it seems like its hard to find.

[TacoD]

A bit off topic....

Jon or Capslock, have you seen or heard any of the AudioTechnology (Skaaning) midwoofs? Maybe a test in one of the European magazines? They are expensive little devils but they have nice, smooth midrange curves and I've heard a couple of (subjective) claims that they can be crossed pretty high. Unfortunately they don't provide impedance or distortion data. I wonder if they use a typical soft poly cone to get the smooth response? Also I wonder if they have the typical Scanspeak 800 Hz impedance bobble?

http://www.flexunits.com/iz.asp?id=4|a|135|||

I have used the Audioechnology C-quenze series. The 18H and 15H woofers, the cones are made of polyprop filled with some mineral. Cone breakups are very early, but are well dampened. The motor of these units uses symetrical drive and are very good, but a big disadvantage of the motor is the size of the assembly.

15H (15cm woofer):


maybe you also want to look at Eben www.eben.dk, which uses the C-quenze drivers.

The founder of Skaaning, has also founded ScanSpeak and Dynaudio. You can contact Per Skaaning and he can make drivers upto your specification.

Soundwise I like these units, they are very natural sounding and I prefer these over the Seas Excel, BUT don't expect very tight bass. The cone isn't strong enough, so use as mid only, the bass has not the slamm of magnesium / aluminium cones. The 15H (also used by Eben and Sonus Faber) has great dynamics and very good impuls properties. It's one of the "fastest" sounding drivers I've ever heard.

Because of the soft cone, they flex and hence they can be crossed pretty high. One aspect of these drivers which is really outstanding is the natural sound, where as Thiel & Partner (Accuton) and Seas Excel are very neutral with a lot of details, the AT has more convincing microdynamic/ lifyness/ air.

But hey I am a fan of the Danish units, so do not shoot me .

test cabinet 15H + Raidho tweeter

[JonMarsh]

We don't shoot the piano player or the guy that likes C-quenze drivers...