Speaker kits for the novice builder

[spirited]

My friends are audiophiles like yourselves, and have asked me to build them a couple of speakers. I am recently out of work technician, trying to find a job in the Montreal area to no avail. It was suggested to me (thanks Andrew) to try my hand at speaker kits instead of starting from scratch.

Could anyone who has built speakers point me in the right direction. I would appreciate your advice on the kits themselves, price in Canadian dollars, special tools if needed, and which materials I should use.

PS" I almost forgot. Where can I get them in Montreal or in Canada, because I'm trying to keep costs down.

Any pointers you can give me would be welcome

[GrahamT]

Two places that I can recommend are www.solen.ca in Quebec and www.creativesound.ca in BC. I also think that the Adire Audio products from CSS are very good. Buying a kit is the best way to go unless you have a testing rig. There are some new kits coming out from Exodus Audio which will be available through CSS.

If you have the woodworking tools, all you is a good soldering iron to assemble the crossover.

[Andrew Pratt]

Having Solen in your backyard is going to help as they have some nice kits and parts are going to be easy to get Partsexpress (see banner at top of page) has some kits as well but they might not be as attractive price wise once you import them given your location and Solens typical decent prices.

As for special tools you'll need a plunge router, solder iron, table saw and a circle guide of some sort for the router (Jasper rig is the one to get if possible)

[spirited]

Thank you so much Graham and Andrew,

I just checked the Solen site, and they have all these brands I've never heard of. Which one should I choose? Another question. What type of speaker should I start with? The electronics part I can handle, but the wood working is going to be an obstacle I will overcome somehow. I will keep you posted

Thanks again for your help and your insight :T

[GrahamT]

There are some Vifa and Seas kits on the Solen website but you aren't limited to those. If I were you I would build the Modula MTM kit that Jon is working on right now. You would have to get the RS180 woofers from www.partsexpress.com though.

[Bent]

I'd second the suggestion for the jasper circle jig - I DIY'd my own, and I'm sure I put more than the jasper's value into it time-wise trying to get it just right, to have paid for the jasper.

[Dennis H]

If you are new to woodworking, you might want to consider buying the enclosures from Parts Express. They have a professional level of finish that only the most talented amateurs will be able to match. For the price they charge, I couldn't build them myself if my time was worth minimum wage. You'll still need a router and a circle jig to cut the holes and rabbets to flush mount the drivers but that's it.

http://www.partsexpress.com/webpage.cfm?&DID=7&WebPage_ID=180

[spirited]

Modula

There are some Vifa and Seas kits on the Solen website but you aren't limited to those. If I were you I would build the Modula MTM kit that Jon is working on right now. You would have to get the RS180 woofers from www.partsexpress.com though.

Hello again Graham,

1.Is the Modula MTM the same as Vifa/Dayton Aluminum MTM Kit. (Found on parts express)

2. I checked out the Solen site and also the brands you mentioned. The site is a little confusing. Like I told you before I'm a novice. I don't know if the kit is for one or two speakers. I know it doesn't make any sense, but parts express seems less expensive than Solen even with the exchange rate. If I'm wrong please tell me.

3. What type of wood should I use.

Thanks again
Larry

[ibilisi]

Hey- Just saw this so I thought I would pipe in!

I suggest getting a decent table saw. I have had good luck with the BT3100 but I'm not sure of availability in your area. There is a sweet support group for that saw as well @ bt3central .

You can get by without a table saw if you grab a router(dust collection a plus) and circular saw and make a good sawboard. It isn't that bad of an idea to cut the wood slightly oversize and then trim it down with a flush trim bit on your router.

Also, if you are building, get clamps, a bunch of them! Don't know how many you may already have. I've used the cheap pipe clamps with pretty good success and I also have used the cheap corner clamps.

I have both sizes of Jasper and I love them. You can make your own but they are quality products.

As far as wood goes, it depends on what you are building and what type of finish you are planning on. Some designs call for extreme stiffness so you'll want 3/4" MDF x 2 or Baltic Birch "Marine Grade" Ply. For smaller boxes you can get by with 3/4" MDF but again, it depends on what the design calls for (in my experience). MDF will require some veneer (options galore) if you want it to look nice and woody, otherwise get good grade Baltic birch and finish it. You can always sand down MDF and paint it if you aren't looking for that wood finish.

I think the Modula MTM's only call for 3/4" MDF if I remember, check the thread at the top of the forum.

One more thought, if you are going to be cutting a bunch of MDF, I would seriously think about dust collection. MDF puts out a serious amount and it can be harmful to your health. I currently have a tiny work area so I use a ShopVac with hepafilter and drywall collector bag behind a cyclone cover on 5L. pail.

cyclone

I hope this helps rather than hurts. If anyone else thinks I'm leading astray feel free to correct/comment! I'm not an expert, just trying to help!

[GrahamT]

Here is the Modula MTM:

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11321

The Solen kits are found here:

https://web.archive.org/web/20060711235751/http://www.solen.ca/olddes.htm

The prices are for a pair.

It may be cheaper to order from PE, I have never tried.

As mentioned by others, 3/4" BB, MDF or pre made cabinets from PE should work fine.

[spirited]

What a great bunch of guys

Al ofl you are top notch in my book. I haven't done a thing yet and, you have all helped me with your ides, and opinions. I thank you all I realize I have alot more to think about concerning the wood part not to mention the price for the kits. I've spoken to my friends and they seem to be at least listening. Whatever happens, I will keep you all posted through each step.

My heartfelt appreciation to all of you. :thanku: :thanku: :thanku:

PS: If this works and your in Montreal one day, dinner is on me (Open invitation)

[GrahamT]

Let us know what your friends are thinking of spending and we can be much more specific.

Good luck on finding a job soon Larry (I know what that is like). I'm going to be in Quebec next week (Norway Bay). I love it there, very beautiful.

[Al Garay]

Or you could let someone else build the cabinets for you, like these very inexpensive finished cabinets

http://members.verizon.net/~pecker/diybox/diybox.htm

Especialy this example of the Ellis 1801b with maple veneer that's impressive for only $300/pair.

http://www.audiocircle.com/circles/viewtopic.php?t=10472

John should be able to hep you with other cabinets. For this cheap, it makes you think twice whether to do the cabinets yourself.

Al

[GrahamT]

A Canadian builder is Al in BC too.

http://www.rawacoustics.ca/

[spirited]

Adire Kit281

I checked out the KIT281 on creativesound.caI e-mailed customer service and got a very quick reply. I got the schematics I asked for, and what was included with the kit. I'm seriously leaning towards buying that kit, and I was wondering if anyone had a pic of the finished product I can show to my friends.

[GrahamT]

Here is a review Mike Knapp did:

https://web.archive.org/web/20070213064301/http://hometheatertalk.com/Reviews/Kit281/kit281.html

Rich Kraus

https://web.archive.org/web/20050831160039/http://home.tampabay.rr.com/kraushome/diyaudio.html

Bob is a nice guy, I have had nothing but good experiences with CSS. Another kit to consider is the upcoming KIT61 from Adire.You can ask Bob about it. He will have more info. I think they are coming out in a couple of weeks.

[spirited]

Kit 281 no more

I wrote an e-mail to Adire a few days ago, and I just got a response back:

Thanks for the email! Unfortunately, we're lo longer offering the
Kit281. It is a great sounding speaker and was favorably reviewed.
However, in conjunction with a couple of our dealers, we're releasing a
new line of kits with significantly higher performance.

That means I have to plan everything all over again :cry: Graham suggested that I try to build the Modula MTM that Jon is doing. I can easily get access to the Seas tweeter, but not the Dayton drivers. (PE exlusive only).

Money is tight, and the shipping alone is steep; not to mention the conversion to the greenback. Is there any way to substitute the RS180 driver with another one, or should I try building another speaker :?:

[JonMarsh]

The RS180 is pretty inexpensive in relation to performance, which was why it was chosen for this project; most comparably performing 7" driver are over $75 to $100. The SEAS L18 RNXP would work well, but it's $67 USD, for example. A lot more than $30. The CA18RNX is $56. Most drivers in the lower price range have higher distortion, less Xmax, and of course, aren't shielded.

[spirited]

Your absolutely right Jon. The Seas L18 RNXP is $94 CAD,while the CA18RNX is on clearance, and sells for $56. The prices were taken from the Solen site. I will definitely give PE a call today. I just hope the shipping won't kill me.

Thanks for your input Jon

[Frank L.]

There is an MTM design on this website: http://home.new.rr.com/zaph/audio/index.html

It uses Vifa woofers and the same Seas 27TDFC tweeter that Jon is using in the Modula MTM project.
You might look and compare pricing of the woofers in Canada.
As A note, I have not heard this design, and my gut feeling is that Jon's x-over and the Dayton drivers may work out a bit better overall, if the pricing on woofers is not a huge difference.

HTH,

Frank

[AndrewM]

Technically you could still put a 281 together as all the parts are still available (tweeter/mid woofer), and the x-over was published, although I'd still e-mail them and see if there are issues with doing this.

[spirited]

Update

I called PE to know how much it would cost to import 4 RS-180 drivers. A very nice customer service person (Sharon) took the time to break it all down for me.

The price of the 4 drivers+ shipping comes out to $205 CDN

The Vifa XG 18 drivers that Frankl mentioned are available at Solen in my own backyard for $242 CDN (includes taxes)

I'm amazed that importing from another country would cost me less than buying in my own city. Like I said before I'm a novice, and I can't afford to make a mistake (especially when it's not my money).

I don't know honestly which driver is better. My questions to all the seasoned speaker builders is this: Should I go with Jon's design or Frankl's? Are the Vifa drivers worth the money or am I getting ripped off? What should I do?

[Frank L.]

Just to calrify, it is certainly not my design, but in fact belongs to John Krutke.
If the price with everything is lower on the PE RS-180's to you in Canada, then I would urge you to go with Jon Marsh's design here on HT Guide. I think there is much much more technical support available to help you with any potential difficulties in the process here.
I had simply seen the XG 18 design, and not knowing what RS-180 drivers would cost you, wanted to offer another option from a well respected designer.

Sincerely, :td:

Frank

[GrahamT]

Either speaker design is very good I'm sure, Dayton and Vifa make respected quality drivers. Both John K and Jon are amazing designers. Personally, I said I would go with the Modula because I like the idea of using the cauer elliptic filters to achieve greater attenuation which allows a lower crossover point. I have seen people say that speakers from both of these designers are the best they ever heard. Look at both designs and see which appeals to you more. You couldn't go wrong with either.

[spirited]

You guys are absolutely fantastic!!!!! My appologies to Frankl. I thought it was your design. I do have some more thinking to do unfortunately, because I do have to make a presentation on this to my friends. It's there money, and they have the final say. I thank you all for giving me options. (Graham I still owe you dinner :W ) I will look in to both designs. Remember, I haven't heard either, but Jon's design IMHO looks pretty cool. If I'm able to do it, that's a completly other matter.

I will keep you all posted
Larry

[Andrew Pratt]

Larry expect to pay duty on those Parts Express items as well. Make sure you insist on them using USPS for shipping not UPS otherwise those import costs will sky rocket once you get the UPS brokerage fee's.

[GrahamT]

Good point Andrew.

Hey Larry if you are ever in Toronto we'll get together, or if I am in Montreal I'll take you up on that.

[goskers]

Don't think that anyone has mentioned this here but since price is an issue...crossover parts, wiring, posts, cabinets and finish, soldering? Do you know how to do all of these things? If not there is help available BUT you should definitely know what you are getting into. DIY is a labor of love for sure :T

[spirited]

Don't think that anyone has mentioned this here but since price is an issue...crossover parts, wiring, posts, cabinets and finish, soldering? Do you know how to do all of these things? If not there is help available BUT you should definitely know what you are getting into. DIY is a labor of love for sure :T

Thanks for your concern Goskers, I am an eletronics technician. I can build the xover with the use of a schematic, and I can solder with the best of them. As far as wood, cutting and finishing that's another story. It's not my departement for now. My best friend will take care of that.

Andrew, BTW if a use USPS there will be no additional costs. I ordered capacitors from a company in Texas last year, and didn't pay a dime more. However, I had sheets for everything in triplicate. Ain't NAFTA grand :T

[Doug Fraser]

Using snail mail is certainly less expensive and there is no brokerage clearing fees. However, when I get items from the US that way I still have to pay the provincial sales tax and the grief and suffering tax (GST). :wink:

I am fortunate to live near the boarder (5 min drive) and use a receiving service just across the boarder in Washington State. I picked up Behringer mic and pre amp this morning (about $100 US value) and the Canadian boarder officer just waved me though. Saved myself about $14. :T

Regards,
Doug

[spirited]

Books

I've been reading alot of DIY threads in anticipation of building my own pair.Unlike me, most of you have done this before and understand the language. I, on the other hand do not. I have a background in electronics, but I am not an engineer, like some of you, or an experienced carpenter. Can someone please recomend a book(s) for a newbie about speaker building/design ,and enclosures.I am not ashamed to say I have no idea what Xmax,Qes,Qms, mean :scratchhead:

Thanks again
Larry

[Dennis H]

Speaker Building 201 is a good place to start. It's available from our friendly sponsor Parts Express. Click the banner at the top of the page.

[ThomasW]

The 'bible' is "The Loudspeaker Design Cookbook" by Vance Dickason. Unfortunately it's not a cookbook, and it's very heavy in math, formulas, theory, etc. Most noobs just get lost starting with this.

Radio Shack sells a couple books. One easily outgrowns them, but they leave no one in the dust. The best one is...

David B. Weems, "Building Speaker Enclosures," Radio Shack publication, stock# 62-2309

Book stores sell it under the name

David B. Weems, "Designing, Building & Testing Your Own Speaker System," Tab Books #1364

[spirited]

I just ordered both books: Speaker Building 201 &Designing, Building & Testing Your Own Speaker System from PE. I should be receiving them in 7-10 days acording to them Thank you both ThomasW & Dennis H, with your help I just completed phase one:

How to understand and communicte in speakerese

I definitely know I will need more help from all of you, but I also know you guys won't always be there.

Thanks again
Larry

[morbo]

Larry - Just FYI, Parts express does not, as far as I know, include the duties that you will be slapped with at the border. Figure another 15% for that. I know, I just received an order from parts express before the holidays. The duties are payable when you pickup your package from the post office. Unfortunately for us Canadians, 'free trade' only goes one way on items like this. On the plus side, the shipping time estimates I got from PE turned out to be VERY conservative, I got my package about a week after ordering.

Another interesting fact is that Solen has two price lists, one for Canadians, and one for Americans. The one for Americans was significantly cheaper (even currency adjusted) last time I checked. This has always irked me :M .

[GrahamT]

David B. Weems, "Designing, Building & Testing Your Own Speaker System," Tab Books #1364

That is a good book for noobs. Another is the appropriately titled "Introduction to Loudspeaker Design" by John L Murphy.

You can get a bunch of good books from your neighbours here:

http://solen.ca/bktee.htm

[Paul H]

Larry - Just FYI, Parts express does not, as far as I know, include the duties that you will be slapped with at the border. Figure another 15% for that. I know, I just received an order from parts express before the holidays. The duties are payable when you pickup your package from the post office. Unfortunately for us Canadians, 'free trade' only goes one way on items like this. On the plus side, the shipping time estimates I got from PE turned out to be VERY conservative, I got my package about a week after ordering.

Another interesting fact is that Solen has two price lists, one for Canadians, and one for Americans. The one for Americans was significantly cheaper (even currency adjusted) last time I checked. This has always irked me :M .

The money we pay at the post office is not related to cross-border issues or free trade at all. The 15% that we pay at the post office is simply sales tax, which the post office is kind enough to collect on behalf of our provincial and federal governments :roll: . We pay the same % tax at Walmart, Canadian Tire, etc, etc.

There have been no "duties" whatsoever on any of the numerous shipments I have received from the US for diy audio stuff over the last year or two.

I hadn't noticed the differences in adjusted pricing from Solen - is it because the exchange rates are changing faster than they are updating their web pages? Seems to me we should be able to pay in whichever currency we prefer? :wink:

Paul

[spirited]

Graham, The Speaker Building 201 book is not available at Solen anymore, and the other book is available at Indigo, for example, on special order only. As far as the duties are concerned, there are none. Books are duty free. However, I might have to pay GST only. What Doug refered to as the Grief and Suffering tax. Guys, according to NAFTA, anything that is made in Canada, the US or Mexico is duty free. I may be wrong.

SpeakerEZE here I come :T

Larry

[morbo]

All I can say is that I paid duty on my last USPS from PE. I know there is PST/GST, this was on top of that, maybe it wasn't called 'duty', but some sort of 'border handling fee' along the lines of what UPS and Fedex charge. At least on the bill, it did not look like this fee was going to the USPS, rather to 'customs'. Also I apologize for bringing free trade etc. into this, this is not the place to discuss politics. Just venting because it is very irritating to pay at least 30% more on top of already high shipping fees. In my experience at least, the old 'take the USD price and multiply by 2 to get the price delivered to your door in CND' still applies.

Relatively speaking of course, we have it good compared to our European friends, who pay so much duty/VAT that I've heard at times that its cheaper for them to import them from the USA!

[spirited]

Morbo you're probbably right when It comes to parts, components systems,etc...For some reason, books are exempt. I'm irritated too. I have to pay $20 in shipping for 2 books!!!!!!! No one is going to fault you for venting, it's even healthy. I've had 10ulcers. VENT AWAY!

[ThomasW]

FedEx and UPS charge extra 'brokering' fees for items shipped to so called 'foreign' countries. USPS doesn't not charge those fees, and they are the best option for shipping to Canada.

I believe all mail based shippers give a rate break for so called 'educational materials' aka books. Note that using that rate means that the item is sent via the slowest possible method (camel caravans I believe are used in most cases) ...:wink: