The standard by which to judge...

[whoaru99]

Out of curiosity, is there a consensus on which 2-way, meant for speaker stand sized, DIY speaker is the reference standard by which to judge others?

Would I be asking too much for a Top 10 list?

Thanks in advance.

[ThomasW]

This is sort of like asking what are the top ten best 'pizzas'. Sort of depends on what one's wants, likes and needs.

Also one should factor in other considerations such as..

size of room
output level needed
efficiency
type of music played or for HT use
cost
etc
etc
etc.....

[jdybnis]

Do you care about deep bass or not?

[JonMarsh]

Out of curiosity, is there a consensus on which 2-way, meant for speaker stand sized, DIY speaker is the reference standard by which to judge others?

Would I be asking too much for a Top 10 list?

Thanks in advance.

Does this qualify as stand mounted?




OTOH, why limit one's self to stand mounted two ways? Floor standers don't really have a significantly bigger footprint, and they eleminate the cost of the stand...









Seriously, besides issues of cost and complexity to build, there is, as ThomasW alluded, that intransigent matter of taste; I'm sure if you asked Dave Ellis, Danny Ritchie, Dennis Murphy, John Krutke, Geoffrey Dillon, Rick Craig, John Krevosky, Joseph D'Apollito, etc, what the best DIY two way was, you'd get different and plural answers, even from each of these designer's own portfolios.

It all depends....


Then, Hank would come along and remind us that small stand mounted two ways are a waste of time, as they can't reproduce the dynamics and complexities of acoustic band music at anything approaching realistic playback levels without horrendous IM and THD. And he'd be right, too. it requires a fairly awesome speaker just to make a passing simulcrum of a baby grand in your living room, much less a brass and wind orchestra.

Well, enough pot stirring for today. :B

[Hank]

Jon, you've got what I would characterize as a bad-boy streak. Pot-stirring is a specialty if done right, and you deserve a certificate on your wall. :T

Okay, intransigent is acceptable as your unique word of the post, BUT simulcrum is going a bit far. Step back from the keyboard and go have a beer. :beer: :laughat:

And, it's Symphonic Band, not orchestra. Not just brass and percussion, but plenty of woodwinds as well. Sheesh. :wink:

[JonMarsh]

Well, it's a little early in the day for a beer, but I've been invited out to lunch for Mongolian Barbecue, so maybe I'll at least have a cream soda... :^x

And it looks like I stirred your pot successfully, too, eh?

:B

Yes, LOTS of woodwinds! :yesnod: :agree:


:rofl:

[whoaru99]

Let me try to hit as many as I can -

Room size: 10ft x 15ft

Max output needed: 90-100db

Sensitivity: => 80 should permit the output @ ~1/2 my amplifier power

Type of music, 2-ch, almost anything except Rap and Rap-like music. No HT with these.

Cost: $500 give or take (cabs not included - function over form is fine here. in other words ugly is fine)

Deep bass not particulary important for these speakers.

The first picture is what I would say appears to be on the large size for my view of stand mounted speakers, but yes, I suppose they could qualify as stand mounted.

Why not floor standing? Sort of hit the nail on the head with added complexity and cost of build, limited woodworking facilities. Also, I'm just somewhat intrigued with good sound from small packages.

[GrahamT]

It sounds like the "Adire Extremis MT" project might be right up your alley. I am doing a 34L version tuned to 25Hz and Jon is doing the crossover and a 21L version. The smaller design will probably suit you better and you could buy the same cabs from Parts Express that Jon is using if you cannot build your own. You said deep bass isn't important but both designs should dig into the twenties in room.

It should meet your needs you mentioned and should be able to take a lot of power. I think efficiency will be better that 80 dB but Jon would know more since he is doing the crossover.

The cost is about $200 for two Extremis', $80 for two LPG 26Ts and then ports binding posts and then the crossover. I dont know how much the crossover would be in US maybe Jon could comment there.

[JonMarsh]

Let me try to hit as many as I can -

Room size: 10ft x 15ft

Max output needed: 90-100db

Sensitivity: => 80 should permit the output @ ~1/2 my amplifier power

Type of music, 2-ch, almost anything except Rap and Rap-like music. No HT with these.

Cost: $500 give or take (cabs not included - function over form is fine here. in other words ugly is fine)

Deep bass not particulary important for these speakers.

The first picture is what I would say appears to be on the large size for my view of stand mounted speakers, but yes, I suppose they could qualify as stand mounted.

Why not floor standing? Sort of hit the nail on the head with added complexity and cost of build, limited woodworking facilities. Also, I'm just somewhat intrigued with good sound from small packages.

OK, this gives one a little more to work wtih. Your first inquiry was VERY wide open, little to qualify the parameters.

When you say $500, is this each or per pair?


First, a few introductory words may be in order.

There are a number of forums associated with DIY Mfrs who offer kits for sale, or plans for sale, etc. THIS isn't one of them.l

We're just a loose collection of hobbyists and music lovers, some with past experience in this business, some with current connections. We aren't selling anything here, just sharing info.

There are a number of DIY kits/designs available on the market, from companies like Adire Audio, Ellis Audio, GR Research, Madisound, Salk Sound, Selah Audio, Newform Research, Creative Sound Solutions, Zalytron, E-Speakers, etc. Some use standard off the shelf drivers, some use proprietary drivers made for them by an OEM. A distinguishing feature of companies like this is that their IP isn't available for free, but they do offer support and warranties.

There are also a number of hobbyists who share some of their designs through personal web sites- John Krutke, Keith Kidder, Dennis Murphy, John Kreskov, and many more- too many to list, but not too many to Google.

Audio DIY Central is a good resource for finding out more about people involved in these endeavors.

I design a few speakers for different applications, most not in the price range of $500 per pair for materials. That first picture posted above is for a 8' two way system which was featured in a three part article series in AudioXpress in the autumn of 2003- September, October, November, "An Unorthodox Eight Inch Two Way Speaker". The version featured in the article was a "cost down" version and the result of four different versions stating in 2000. It was cost down by using a Vifa XT25 tweeter instead of ScanSpeak D2904/9800. A pair of the latter tweeters is almost $400 by themselves. They're pretty solid in the low end down to the mid 30's at playback levels like you describe (up to 100 dB peak) with efficiency about 83 dB/watt.

One complexity and cost factor making it possible to have an 8" two way with good off axis dispsersion throughout the crossover region is a relatively complex (expensive) crossover. This is an example crossover of this topology and type- as used in the tower version.



Note that a "premium" implementation of this crossover, with 12AWG woofer and tweeter shunt coils, and AudioCAP Theta film and foil caps in the tweeter networks, isn't inexpensive either- but make significant differences to the sound quality.

The tower version, as shown in the 2nd two pictures, differs in details about how strong the cabinet is (minimizing spurious radiation from side walls) and the volume and bass tuning (this version goes down to the mid 20's). Also, this version uses a Dayton RS225 with either a Hales or SEAS tweeter such as the Millenium Excel.

There are a few projects being completed in the next month or so that may be of interest, and in the price range you're thinking about (assuming $500 pair).

The smallest are three different MT designs, though a larger version is also being built by Graham, as he describes. Two are based on the Extremis 6 woofer from Adire, with either the LPG26T tweeter, or the Millenium Excel tweeter. There's also an MT design I've been kicking around for a friend back East that I may finally build, using a Peerless 850439 midwoofer with SEAS 27TDFC, which will use a simpler series crossover, not being inteded for SPL's above the mid 90's.

In the thread about MTMs, we're discussing two MTM designs based on the Dayton RS180 7" midwoofer. One is intended for center channel or mains, but the cost on that one, due to the ScanSpeak 6000 tweeter, would be too high. The other is intended just as a "mains" or music speaker mounted conventionally. Both use a very similar crossover to that shown above - a cauer-elliptic filter emulating the transfer function of an 8th order Linkwitz-Riley. This is the same type used in the M8 two way and the M8ta tower.

This graph of measured response on and off axis to -45 degrees was made with an inexpensive Behringer mic, and so shows roll off above 13 kHz which isn't present in the actual design. But note the lack of a hole in the presence region off axis, where most two way systems have problems because of beaming of the mid woofer.



This is a hallmark of having not only smooth axial response, but smooth total power response, which is just as important to the perceived balance of the speaker. This is enabled by this crossover design, which makes relatively low crossover frequencies usable; 1250 Hz in this case. This is one of the key reasons I use this approach- that and being able to stay away from the non-pistonic operating areas of the midwoofer.



~Jon

[David Meek]

And, it's Symphonic Band, not orchestra. Not just brass and percussion, but plenty of woodwinds as well. Sheesh. :wink:

Hmmm, best go with orchestra there Hank. Symphonic band sounds like a whole buncha 'dem good ol' boys wid fiddles 'n skin drums 'n such like.... :B

I realize this didn't contribute in the least to this thread, but I couldn't let that passage go by un-scathed. You all understand, right? Right? :yesnod:

[JonMarsh]

Hey David,

I ALWAYS enjoy it when you drop in amongst us to make your comments and contributions! Especially when they're aimed at Hank, not me!

You know, one of these days when you guys have a Houston area get together, you're going to have to give me a little notice so I can see if I can put something together with some frequent flyer miles (lord only knows I've got plenty of those!) and join the party- we ought to even be able to get Hank to pop down from Austin, huh?

Just something to think about- I always seem too rushed on my "official" trips to Houston for HP, and it would be hard to make one of those coincide with a HTG get together.

~Jon

[Hank]

Hmmm, best go with orchestra there Hank. Symphonic band sounds like a whole buncha 'dem good ol' boys wid fiddles 'n skin drums 'n such like....

"Fiddles" are violins, and as I said, we have now "strings".

You non-Texans, please don't take this hick's post as representative of a Texan's mentality level. He's probably an Arkansas transplant, inserted here in an attempt to lower our average I.Q. level. Texans are intelligent, loqatious, and coherent, quite unlike the Houston boy. For instance, the highest number of books read per capita in the nation is right here in Austin. And no, David, that's NOT "comic" books.

[JonMarsh]

Whoooo, boy, there, did someone strike a nerve?

Having gone to High School and graduated in Texarkana, believe me, every good fearing rock and roll musician I knew at that time's first and foremost dream was to move to Austin... except mine, I went to Colorado. Well, I've always been a slow learner and a late bloomer.

~Jon

[cjd]

I was under the impression that the rest of Texas wanted to get rid of all the folks in Austin 'cause it didn't fit in right. Of course, I have a famous great-uncle that's a Texan, so I know y'all aren't *all* bad. :P

Oh yeah. Fiddles are NOT violins. They might qualify as "fallen" violins. And the bow is very different. As is the technique. If you can call fiddling "technique".

Guess what I've played for 25+ years. . .

C

[shokhead]

B&W 603's on short stands,about 8" so the tweeter is ear level,more or less and my 601's on taller stands so they are the same height.

[JonMarsh]

The original question was in regards to DIY speakers; i.e., do it yourself. Just out of curiousity, what do the B&W models you have cost?

Best regards,

Jon

[Hank]

heh-heh

[shokhead]

$750 for the 603's and $300 for the 601's and #300 for the CC6. That was in 99.

[whoaru99]

Had to dive in somewhere, so I'm going to listen to the Ellis Audio 1801b. This speaker may or may not be what I'm looking for but it is a place to start.

Seems like a fair deal for an in-home audition just to pay shipping to the next person and write a review. Well, so long as the next person is not at an Antarctic research station, that is.

They should be here this coming Monday.

[JonMarsh]

The Ellis's are well regarded designs, and compare well with much more expensive commercial speakers. The only complaint I've ever heard about them is not with regars to tonal balance or quality, just how loud they play. A single 7" midwoofer has limits in that regard, but within those limits they're very good speakers.

~Jon