Line Array Tweeters

[Paul H]

I've been looking at line arrays, doing some initial scheming for the next project.

Spacing for line array tweeters is recommended to be extremely close - less than 1.5" centre-centre per some sources. This seems to me to bring 3 options - large planars like the RD50, smaller planars like the RT2CA or ultra-cheap tiny little auto tweeters.

Are there other tweeter options for line arrays? Is the theoretical recommended spacing really required to be that close?

Thanks,

Paul

[JonMarsh]

Yeah, I can't imagine doing a line array with ultra small EXPENSIVE tweeters, like the D2904/6000! :rofl:


There's not an easy answer here, Paul. Some of the smaller less expensive tweeters aren't exactly super clean, though I imagine that the higher you can make the crossover, the better behaved they'll be.

I'm still wondering if stacking smaller true ribbons, like the Fountek JP2, is a practical approach. The ribbon is about 5", the total driver height about 6". Had some Decca ribbons back in the 70's, they had some interesting characteristics, but some problems, too. I think the least number one could get away with for a broad sitting listening height is about six; but 8 probably makes more sense. Definitely not cheap. But may work OK with a crossover frequency of 5 kHz or so. Just gonna have to save up some my pennies, quarters, and silver dollars...


The Panasonic leaf tweeters in ThomasW's system are pretty good, but the total line array was mas expensivo. But then a set of Maggie 20.1 aren't cheap, either. Nor are the 3.6.

Are you contemplating doing a line array system sometime Paul? I've heard the Linus array; I'd think carefully about that approach, or try to get a chance to hear one, before making that commitment.

Best regards,

Jon

[Paul H]

Are you contemplating doing a line array system sometime Paul? I've heard the Linus array; I'd think carefully about that approach, or try to get a chance to hear one, before making that commitment.

I'm thinking about it, but will continue to just think (and not do) for a while yet. I've read a lot of positive reviews on arrays, especially dipole arrays, and seen very little in the way of negative comments.

I'm aware of potential problems with mating nearfield line arrays with other speakers (subs). Also it's commonly accepted (not by me yet, but commonly :wink: ) that dipole line arrays must have multiple amps and active crossovers.

Are there other problems with line arrays I'm not aware of?

Paul

[ThomasW]

Several years ago we evaluated the SilverFlute/Stryke/PE PT2B planar tweeter, and found them to be less than impressive. It's unfortunate since the price is certainly right.

Somewhere I've got the FR plot we made with the B&K 4133. I'll see if I can find it.

[JonMarsh]

I'm thinking about it, but will continue to just think (and not do) for a while yet. I've read a lot of positive reviews on arrays, especially dipole arrays, and seen very little in the way of negative comments.

I'm aware of potential problems with mating nearfield line arrays with other speakers (subs). Also it's commonly accepted (not by me yet, but commonly :wink: ) that dipole line arrays must have multiple amps and active crossovers.

Are there other problems with line arrays I'm not aware of?

Paul

Well, a number of line arrays (two way) have passive crossovers, but certainly some of the bigger, more complex ones use active crossover, in part because of the difficult of matching the efficiencies of drivers, especially if dipole operation is used.

Sealed line arrays are much simpler. It would still be fun, if expensive, to make a "simple" two way sealed line array- even just with an RD50 on top, and some combination of 6" or 7" midwoofers. The challenge is that if you tune the midwoofers for low end, the enclosure quickl gets pretty dang large. This would be the case with multiple Dayton 7" drivers, for example. If you used 8 of the 7", the reasonable net enclosure volume for good extension to about 30 Hz is 160 liters. Now, such a box 6" tall wouldn't have to be too wide or deep, but it still wouldn't be light. If you wanted to get even more serious about the bottom end, then consider 6 of the 8" Dayton's. At least 60" tall; tuned for 30 Hz bottem end, ~ 240 liters; tuned for M8ta bottom end (low 20's), 360 liters.

I'll have to make some "what if" AutoCAD drawings just for fun.... maybe to tease Hank a little...

[Hank]

I'll have to make some "what if" AutoCAD drawings just for fun.... maybe to tease Hank a little...

Grrrrr!...

Since I don't currently have a S.O., I'm not so concerned with ultimate cabinet size, but I am concerned about the cost.

Okay, I'll pick on Jon. Here's a new TB tweeter that covers 600 - 20k Hz:

http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/28-847s.asp

And for anyone looking to try a VERY narrow (ala Pipedreams) array, here are two new TB "full-range" drivers, 1st, a 2"x3", then a 2"x2":

http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w2-924si.asp

http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w23-1286s.asp

Both have .9mm Xmax

How 'bout a coaxial solution? Here's the new TB 4" coax:
http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w4-937sa.asp 4.5mm Xmax
Or the 5" coax:

http://www.tb-speaker.com/detail/1208_03/w5-938sa.asp

Okay, I've upset the Poohbah's enough for one day. I bet they're cursing into their shot glasses by now.

[JonMarsh]

Grrrrr!...

Since I don't currently have a S.O., I'm not so concerned with ultimate cabinet size, but I am concerned about the cost.


Okay, I've upset the Poohbah's enough for one day. I bet they're cursing into their shot glasses by now.

Nah, we're just having a good time. I just finished the nine month tune up on Thomas's big system; he had some crossover boards go out, got the system running again just before the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest, but wasn't familiar with some of the board details, such as enabling the on board damping/corner controls, etc. It's working quite nicely right now; just been listening to some Evelyn Glennie (percussionist) and Laurie Anderson.

The system is ready for you to fly up and hear, since the the Ayre amp has been updated and the crossovers tweaked.

And we've got some decent sipping tequila for you, Hank, to "enhance" the experience as needed- some Gaardon Reposad 100% De Agave Tequila, some Jose Cuervo 204 anos Tradicional Tequila Reposado (both of these are in serial numbered bottles), and some Sauze Tres Generaciones Three presidents bottled in 1986.

So, we're ready for you, Hank!

arty:


Come on up! :B

~Jon

[Brian Bunge]

Hey Hank,

I've still got 50 of those 2" drivers that I got from Ken's supplier. Can't seem to find the specs for the damn things though...

[Paul H]

Sealed line arrays are much simpler.

Simpler, but I was really going back and forth between line arrays and dipoles for my next project, until I realized that I didn't have to choose, that I could do a dipole line array.

I'm thinking of this as a long term large project, that will be complicated - which is fine, as I'll learn a lot on the way.

"Sipping tequila" .. hmmm, I've only ever seen "shooting tequila".

Paul

[Hank]

Jon, that is so tempting, but recall I have a daughter at TCU in Ft. Worth and a son here at U.T. and an 18-year-old son who just started driving (and insurance payments)...so, the budget rules. I received my CES badge today, so my next wad of personal fun money goes to a Southwest Airlines' vacation package to Las Vegas. I'm looking at a 3-night Sahara Hotel/RT package and need to pull the trigger soon.
BTW, enjoy your tequilas. I hope you try Sauza's Hornitos label. It's the best-tasting "affordable" tequila. And boy, have the tequila prices skyrocketed in the last 2 years due to the crop shortfall. Problem is, the Agave plant takes 12 years to harvesting maturity.
Paul, sophisticated Mexicans do not "shoot" tequila like low-class gringos. They sip quality tequila like brandy. The effect, while similar, is sublime and oh, so stress-eliminating :T :clap:

[mante]

Go Hank, Go Hank

CES or private speaker building with Jon and Thomas.....Southwest airlines here I'd come

Craig

[Hank]

Mante, there's more female eye candy in Vegas. :drool: :banana: :blonde: :brunette: :redhead: :jawdrop:

[Hank]

I've still got 50 of those 2" drivers that I got from Ken's supplier.

Brian, build something weird with them or send them to me
I have two that Ken sent me, but he didn't send me any specs. The Xmax seems large for a 2". Take a 5 ft piece of 4" diameter PVC pipe, slice off an arc from end to end, stuff it with polyfill, glue in a length of 5/8" MDF pre-cut for the drivers, wire 'em, mount 'em and you'll have your own pipe dream.

[mante]

Excellent point Hank. Though, coming from a sax player, you may want to leave the clarinet at home ;>)

[JonMarsh]

Mante, there's more female eye candy in Vegas. :drool: :banana: :blonde: :brunette: :redhead: :jawdrop:

Yeah, we don't have any female eye candy here, as my daughter's in CA.

Have fun at the CES; I've been to several, and they can be a lot of fun and pretty interesting these days, I expect. Tiring, too, I imagine!

~Jon

[Ten 99]

My partner at work just got back from SEMA in Lost Wages. Two of the major events I've always wanted to attend in Las Vegas are SEMA and CES. One day...

[JonMarsh]

Definitely "guy" type vacations, though. I think I'd like to do CEDIA someday, except I've become less intereseted in the digitals anymore, and that's pretty much all that's there. Still, it might be quite a bit of fun, but it wouldn't have the Vegas factor...

[Hank]

Yes, it's tiring, but I plan to do three days this time. The key is comfortable, supportive shoes. I'll spend quite a bit of time at the high end part of the show at the two hotels - lots less walking than the huge main exhibition, BUT there are thousands of electronic toys at the main show. There, you get to see strange and exotic items such as Chinese monitor speakers with built-in tube amps - kinda funny to see two glowing tubes sticking up from the back of a speaker. Is anyone else from this forum planning to attend? If so, let's meet for a tequila or two

I too would like to attend a CEDIA some day.

Mante, are you the one who posted the clarinet player joke?

Chris, are you P.O.'s into automotive sound or hot-rodding?

[Brian Bunge]

Speaking of eye candy, Hank's daughter is very easy on the eyes. Man, if I were 10 years younger....Hank would probably kill me!

[Ten 99]

Never met his daughter. I met Hank's son one day. He's a nice young man. I think this is the one that's figgin' to start college.

Hank, there are guys at work that like none of the above, some of the above, or all of the above. I tend to like both. I've always been a "bang for the buck" kinda guy, and I definitely like to do things myself. Half of the fun is the process and the satisfaction afterwords. My vette will be paid off around the end of the year, and sometime in the spring I'm going to try and find me a used truck. I've really been needing a truck. I will probably tinker with the truck too, as I can't stand to leave well enough alone.

What about that 330? Are you tinkering at all with it? My wife's boss recently bought a 330 'vert, and she's loving it.

[Hank]

Speaking of eye candy, Hank's daughter is very easy on the eyes.

Which one - Jessica (27) or Holly (23)? They both get rave reviews.

Man, if I were 10 years younger....

...and not married. Shame on you, Georgia boy. :wink:
Thanks guys, my kids are my pride and joy.
Chris, you met Taylor, the HS senior football player. BTW, Cedar Park just won district championship, AND the band, in which plays my clarinet student (who is doing great) just won 2nd place in the state marching contest. My 22-year-old son Sean is in the business school at U.T. and doing great.
Okay, I'll step down off the Brag Box and not take up more space with that.

Chris, the engine in the 330 is a high-compression, highly engineered and tuned mama, and does not respond to dollars poured into it. It's maxed out by BMW and the only significant HP gains are mega-expensive. I'm talkin' supercharger. Cold air induction, $1,000+cat-back systems, Shark software, etc, etc - they don't extract hardly any extra horsepower. Lucille is just fine the way the German engineers have her tweaked out of the factory.
Okay, I did replace the front side marker yellow lenses with smoked, and the tail lights with clear lenses versus the stock yellow. The look, with the yellow clash is great. WAIT A MINUTE! Who am I 'fessing to here? UH...Chris, I was only THINKING about doing that stuff. ops:

Of course if someone came out with a decent-priced nitrous set-up for the 330...

[mante]

what?

Hank,
What the heck was that monologue. You really need to go to Denver and relax.
Craig, the sax player 8)

[Hank]

Mante, I'm overstressed at work. Last paragraph was an inside joke w/Ten99

[Evil Twin]

Mante, I'm overstressed at work. Last paragraph was an inside joke w/Ten99

Isn't everyone stressed out at work these days? The last assignment the Emperor gave to me, I almost forgot all about that "Yes, Master" business, and nearly ripped his head off and threw him down a turbolaser shaft.

:demon:

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

I assume it was Holly as I believe the young lady I met was in college. I think one of your sons was upstairs that morning but I don't believe we met him. Oh yeah, and 10 years ago I wasn't married, but I'm quite happy with my little blonde-haired, blue-eyed 105 lb. wife. Too bad for you her twin sister is married... :twisted:

[Hank]

The last assignment the Emperor gave to me, I almost forgot all about that "Yes, Master" business, and nearly ripped his head off and threw him down a turbolaser shaft.

I like that concept! :f>

Too bad for you her twin sister is married...

Brian, you are right about that! How's that job possibility coming along? I need to call you. I would right now, but a PhD at work who plays bass guitar wants me to design and build a cabinet for a Eminence Delta Pro 15" driver he just acquired, so I need to run it through some software. Luckily, I have the Eminence Designer software that's pre-loaded with all the Eminence driver data. I'll try to call tomorrow or Saturday. Hang in there!

[Brian Bunge]

Hank,

The job possiblity is going slow. As you can imagine, this time of year is extremely busy for folks in the audio industry so the guy I need to talk to hasn't been available much. Especially not with his trips overseas and with the death of his mother. I figure it will probably be sometime over the holidays before we can get time to talk out all the details.

Also, I've spent most of the last 2 days at the hospital. Kay had to have her appendix removed Friday night/Saturday morning. I didn't get home until 5am, slept around 5 hours, and was back at the hospital just after lunch. Just got back home at midnight.

The worst part is, the surgeon isn't sure that her appendix was even the problem. Her abdominal pain was in the right spot and had been there for 3 days, but she didn't have any of the other symptoms. Also, the CT scan wasn't conclusive. The fact that she'd had a doctor a few years ago think that she needed it removed made us all decide to take that sucker out this time and know for sure it'll never be an issue ever again.

I'll make sure I let her know that you'll pick up the Margeritas the next time we're in Austin. That's sure to perk her up!

P.S. I'll have my cell phone on me all day tomorrow. Feel free to call me if you want. I don't know if I can read the same magazine articles or watch the same design shows on HGTV too many more times so I need some other distraction.

[Ten 99]

Poor Kay. I had mine removed just over two years ago. The great thing is that the laproscopic surgery is minimally invasive at best, and the healing time is very quick. When mine was about to pop, I had never been so sick in my life. Did they check her gal bladder as well? That generally can cause similar symptoms. Good news is that the procedure to remove the GB is almost identical, and the GB is almost equally useless organ in the body.

Hope Kay feels better, and I hope your new (potential) boss's grieving goes okay. Hopefully you'll get that job, or maybe even a better one yet.

[Hank]

Brian, say hi to Kay for me and I do hope her troubles are over. If not, have all the extra stuff removed. More room for margaritas! Yes, I'm sick.
I'll look for your phone number - just returned from playing an Austin Symphonic Band concert - it went well. The band will play well in Seattle next Sunday, although I won't be going - the trip is not in my budget and I'm trying to go to C.E.S. in January.
Yes, I'm buying the margaritas when you guys come back - might even hand-craft some, as well as grill fajitas.