HDTPC MkII? Or, never open your mouth at work

**Lex** · 14 November 2002, 09:50 Thursday

it would cut into Microsoft's Xbox franchise, and he really things that's near and dear to their hearts.

Doesn't matter, at that stage, it's out of MS's hands. Obviously, most everything you've mentioned can be done at some level with Windows 2000, or XP, so the cat is pretty much out of the bag as far as Microsoft is concerned. MS knows, pretty much the average person isn't going for a system like this anyway, so I think it's been a market they just haven't cared about and haven't cared about stopping either.

These systems just seem to qwuirky and complex to me. I basically never did get mine all figured out, it's just been a dead project. Oh sure, I did manage to get dolby digital out of it, but now and again their were audio dropouts. Got a fair if not dark appearing image out of it, but it just never really thrilled me.

My best advice is to get a real TiVo and a DVD player unless a person is very tweaky and wants to play.

Lex

**JonMarsh** · 14 November 2002, 16:07 Thursday

My best advice is to get a real TiVo and a DVD player unless a person is very tweaky and wants to play.

Well, let's face it- that's part of what boys like to do, is play!

Seriously, an HTPC in any form may not be something for the person that is computer averse or those uninterested in the flexibility that a re-configurable PC can bring.

As for myself, the last conventional DVD player I bought was a Toshiba SD9000- there weren't any progressive scan players back in those days. My daughter was surprised and delighted when I gave her that unit for her bedroom only three months after I bought it. It was replaced by my first HTPC- which unlike the Toshiba, DID do proressive scan, and could scale to XGA and SXGA.

My second HTPC build was the rack mount unit dedicated to driving the SonyVPL-W400Q widescreen projector with a an HD compatible scanning rate, and an Exetron sync processor driver. That unit has resided at ThomasW's for quite sometime, delivering widescreen DVD playback without a glitch for years.

These systems just seem to qwuirky and complex to me. I basically never did get mine all figured out, it's just been a dead project. Oh sure, I did manage to get dolby digital out of it, but now and again their were audio dropouts. Got a fair if not dark appearing image out of it, but it just never really thrilled me.

An HTPC is almost certainly a questionable use of time for a conventional TV. The S-Video output from an PC video card shares all the same limitations as from a standard DVD player.

Where HTPC's come into their own is with high resolution displays- a starting point being an HD ready RPTV supporting 1080i/540P. However, where things really get interesting is with high resolution graphics grade projectors, including digtital, but especially CRT, where the flexible and inexpensive scaling options of the PC shine in comparison with dedicated scalers.

If you're never seen DVD scaled well to 1280X720, or 1920X1080i, well, some of us just think you may not know what the medium is cable of. Scaling cannot create information that isn't there, but as with upsampling in audio, the right scaling algorithms can clearly retrieve and present the information better.

My recommended level of scaling interpolation (if your display supports this) is around 1600X1024. If you wonder what I'm talking about, try this on a good high res computer monitor, with a player like Power DVD XP in DXVA hardware mode, or Cineplayer /Sonic 1.5. (Bing, I'm talking to you man!)

Like any other display device, an HTPC needs to be calibrated for playback levels, grayscale, color saturation, etc. PC's in general have lower output levels than consumer STB's like DVD players- but then consumer players are hardly standardized- they're all over the map on what constitutes a white 0 IRE level. With the setup ThomasW inhereited, the Exetron processer supported controllable gain as well as extreme HF gain, so compensating for long cable runs is a breeze.

With new products such as relatively low cost HD tuner boards with recording capabilities (such as the MyHD card for $300), and high quality capture/dinterlacing-scaler cards such as the Immersivetek Holo3D, and relatively cheap large HD's, there's more opportunities than ever before for creatively customizing an HTPC.

But, this is a "hands-on" endeavor- I don't recommend this for the person that wants an appliance. Best Buy, Good Guys, etc., all sell applicances. But for a somewhat computer savy user that would like flexibility in customizing their own entertainment functions, whether it's uncompressed or compressed music, DVD, HDTV, gaming, etc., there's a lot to be had from a single box HTPC, particularly if you're seeking high levels of performance and flexibility at moderate cost. (considering the cost of today's computing platforms- which is truly rock bottom for what you get).

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**JonMarsh** · 14 November 2002, 17:31 Thursday

OK, time to start teasing folks....

Here's some of the pieces I would propose for my coworker for a new HDTPC system....

Cooler master front load case, about $200. Small classy footprint, requries MicroATX MB.

Asus nForce based motherboard for Athlon, six channel audio including hardware encoding for Dolby Digital SPIDF output, with both coaxial and Toslink outputs. MicroATX format. Hypertransport chip interconnect technology... yeah, the same stuff in those new 64bit Athlon's coming out next year.

Radeon 9000 Pro video board, 10 BIT DACs, one of many possible video card choices, but offering a good balance of 2D video performance, gaming performance, and cost. 128 MB Powered by ATI version available locally for about $125.

MyHD tuner board/video/audio board, NTSC and ATSC tuner with HD decoding, recording HD transport streams and NTSC video; outputs to overlay on main video board, or to separate display outputs with RGB or component at 1080i, 720P, 480P; Terratec hardware MPEG decoder chip for low CPU loading. Loopback of desktop video with one button remote switching available. Programmed recording. Includes SPDIF output, as well as two channel audio and multichannel wave decoding.

Immersivetek Holo3D - video input from composite, S-Video, or component, Faroudja dcdi deinterlacing, and scaling output to PC video card; exceptionally quiet ADC on front end; resolves 6.75 MHz AVIA test patterns.... for your Direct TV, Laser Disk, VCR, or whatever... even set top DVD players!

scales to any resolution your video card supports.

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**SteveG** · 14 November 2002, 19:20 Thursday

Jon,

I'd agree with your choices, but hold out for the Radeon 9700 or 9500 Pro, since they and Microsoft have some deinterlacing tricks up their sleeves when DirectX 9.0 final surfaces. The 9700 and 9500 are the only ones that will benefit in this way from DirectX 9.0. And the motion adaptive deinterlacing of 1080i will be great, if reports from those in the know are any indication. We may even see a resurfacing of the cheap HDTV cards once promised, such as the Broadcom prototype used by MS a few years ago. (Reportedly, n'Vidia's HDTV algorithms for the GeForce 4 ti boards is even better, but they have other problems.) By the way, ATI just released beta drivers for these cards and DirectX 9.0. These may be useful also with the HOLO card, but the Faroudja deinterlacing chip on the card may beat out anything ATI and MS have to offer.

I like your inclusion of the HOLO board, since I'm extemely happy with mine. I'm using it with an SDI modified Panasonic DVD RP82, and its giving me the best picture I've ver seen from DVD. I prefer scaling to 1440x960, which represents a doubling of DVD resolution. This gives the scaling engine in the graphics board less to screw up, and produces better test images and, perhaps, a slightly better with real program material. This works out great with my NEC XG85 projector, which can fully resolve 960p when tweaked.

I also would't try to loop the output of the Radeon through the MyHD card, since this degrades the picture somewhat. If you can find a way, I'd use separate inputs on the display device or a switcher with high bandwidth.

By the way, I went down the Intel path, with a 2.66GHz P4, the newest Intel MB based on the 845PE chipset (D845PEBT2), a DVD ROM and a DVD burner. I'm using a Radeon 7500 now, but likely will buy the 9500 Pro when it comes out and modify it with a Zalman heatpipe/heatsink.

Steve Goff

**JonMarsh** · 14 November 2002, 20:31 Thursday

The actual video card is one of the area's that's most open to debate- but since it's one of the least expensive parts, (in the total picture) it's not a big deal to upgrade.

Choosing the best video board depends on the tradeoffs for the individual system. In this case I'm trying to keep a number of items at reasonable cost- if this guy was a really hard core gamer, than going for the 9700 at this point is probably a no brainer. Oddly, the 9000 includes some of the "traditional" hardware support for mpeg/dvd playback which aren't in the 9700- it's "whiz bang" feature (as I understand it) is the video filtering in the shader engine, and the adaptive de-interlacing.

If you've got the Holo3D, that's a moot point for most sources, though like you I'd be very interested to see what the adaptive deinterlacing might accomplish with 1080i sources. Then we need a 1080p capable monitor. That's going to be a stumbling point for a lot of folks. My NEC presentation monitor can lock (just barely) at that, but it doesn' t have the mask resolution to really do it justice, certainly not when you do the vertical squeeze for 16X9.

The Sony W900 will do it justice, but above that we're talking some rarified territory with CRT projectors- and some future digital ones. Or one of the widescreen digital projectors with good down conversion of 1080i. Even a "lowly" 10HT Sony looks pretty good on 1080i material- especially if it's had a color enhancing filter attached and been re-calibrated for it.

It'll be fun if this collegue decides to go through with this- though I anticipate the possiblity of a few hair pulling moments sorting out the software. Maybe I'm just being a fraidy cat, though.

_

-Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**SteveG** · 14 November 2002, 21:23 Thursday

A little off course:

So far, when most of us have seen 1080i on fixed-pixel displays, we've only seen bob and weave deinterlacing. I've seen 1080i deinterlaced by the Faroudja 5000, and that is something else entirely. The 5000 softens the picture some, and doesn't even have DCDi, but man, the picture is sooo smooth and solid. Of course, this was on a Sony G90 CRT, which has no trouble showing 1080p. And the source at times was D5, which didn't hurt.

My point is that I think 1080i properly deinterlaced and downscaled is going to look much better than what we see today on fixed-pixel displays. And I hear from inside MS that these DirectX 9.0 cards (especially the n'Vidia) are the next best thing to DCDi when deinterlacing HDTV.

Now, I'm not sure that this is going to matter much to me in the near future. My XG85 looks great with 1080i, and I can't get any over-the-air HDTV where I am in any event.

One thing I like about the 9000 is that you can buy a fanless version (not a built-buy ATI, but it uses the same drivers), thus avoiding one source of noise. I'm still working on ways to shut up my projector, so don't need another box whirring and wheezing at me.

I'm also exited about the possibilty of using my HTPC as a music server. I'm trying out Media Jukebox, with the APE lossless compression plugin, to store my CDs. There is a nice little program called Glissando that allows you to control MJ from a client over a network. Glissando runs on a laptop or tablet, and controls MJ on the HTPC. Glissando shows the album cover art and lets you navagate through the archived music menus, with a nice, simple interface.

Steve Goff

**SteveG** · 14 November 2002, 21:29 Thursday

Another route might be to look into the new Shuttle SB51G, which uses the new Intel 845GE chipset. One of these with either the HOLO card or MyHD would be very cool, and quiet too. I think I'd avoid the earlier SS51, which seems to have some problems with the HOLO card. Both have SP/DIF out, though awkwardly on the front. (Some folks have moved it to the back, an easy modification.)

Steve Goff

**JonMarsh** · 14 November 2002, 23:08 Thursday

The Glissando and Media Jukebox combination sounds pretty interesting- I've been interested in investigating products like Media Jukebox, but only if they support lossless compression.

I haven't been super keen on the music server idea yet, but I'm coming around to it- I've been working on a DAC that will use an upsampler/sample rate converter/de-jitter chip, and I have some hopes it might sound OK with a good quality SPDIF output from a PC. That might take an MAudio board to really do it justice, but I've got a 2496 sitting around right now, anyway.

-Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**SiliGoose** · 15 November 2002, 11:00 Friday

Hmm...Media Jukebox looks suspiciously like Windows Media Player 9.0. I wonder if they share some elements. The new WMP also offers a lossless compression scheme. I won't go to a lossless scheme until there is a dominant format. If I delete all my MP3's now in favor of APE or lossless WMA I'll loose compatibility with portable players.

-Sili

**SteveG** · 15 November 2002, 13:06 Friday

Siligoose,

I'm not sure I agree with your logic. Both WMP and APE will still exist if another lossless standard is choosen. With either you can convert back, ensuring you never loose your original data. That is because they are lossless standards. You can also convert on the fly from, say, APE to MP3, or any competing lossy standard, for use in a portable device.

Media Jukebox is a competitor of Windows Media Player, and has its own benefits and drawbacks.

One problem with this music-server scheme is the new driver model employed by MS, called WDM, that routes sounds through a mixer and sampling rate converter called the kmixer. Unless your application and driver can find some way arround the kmixer, you won't get bit-for-bit reproduction on the digital output of your soundcard. Professional music software, which generally requires low latency, finds a way arround by using ASIO plugins. Applications can also use what is called kernel streaming to bypass the kmixer. WinAmp and Media Jukebox have an ASIO plugin available.

This brings up one of the chief drawbacks of an HTPC, the complexity and compatability issues that always crop up. Sometimes, even seasoned PC pros end up screaming about their inability to get stuff to work as it should.

Steve Goff

**JonMarsh** · 15 November 2002, 14:56 Friday

Sometimes, even seasoned PC pros end up screaming about their inability to get stuff to work as it should.

Ain't that the truth.

Along those lines, I've been checking out DVD playback solutions for the less "finicky" among us, emphasizing high stability and robustness coupled with good video performance, as opposed to perhaps "stellar". In that line, I'm fairly impressed so far with the combination of NV17 based video cards (Geforce 4MX series which have iDCT and 10 bit DACs) coupled with the nVidia NVDVD 2.0 Player; it's a real honey of a player, handles lots of media types and file modes very reliaibly in initial testing, supports frame shots and audio clips with more than just a hot key or two, and has a very well thought out configuration panel. Plus, it looks pretty d@mn good, with very smooth performance and good detail and saturation- plus, good overlay controls. Pretty impressive all in all. It's probably going to become my standard recommendation in the future for the non tweak head playback, particularly for a reasonably strong gaming system. It makes the ATI players look like an amateur production in comparison, both in features, stability, and general performance.

-Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**JonMarsh** · 15 November 2002, 15:27 Friday

Another route might be to look into the new Shuttle SB51G, which uses the new Intel 845GE chipset.

Yes, Central Computer here in the Silicone valley carries the Shuttle micro systems, and both the Intel and AMD versions intrigue me- I wish someone could make one with an nforce chipset, but there's just not enough room, I'm sure. It would make a really cute little bedroom or den HTPC. But I've heard that to get the most out of the Holo3D you want a video solution with 10 bit DAC's, which would leave out the integrated intel solution.

-Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**SteveG** · 15 November 2002, 15:51 Friday

I've read rumors (or maybe just wishes) of a Shuttle with the nforce chipset, but know nothing about that possibility. Some folks are stuffing the HOLO card and a Radeon 9700 in the SS51G, and the same could be done with the SB51G. If I recall, there have been some "issues" with the SiS-based SS51 and the HOLO card. The HOLO works fine with both Intel and AMD CPUs, but not some VIA-chipped motherboards.

If I built one of these systems based on the SB51 I'd probably run a small monitor off the Intel on-board video output and my projector off a Radeon 9500.

Steve Goff

**SteveG** · 18 November 2002, 16:34 Monday

I downloaded the nVidia NVDVD 2.0 Player, which they provide for a 14-day trial, to try on my system with a GeForce 4 MX420. This is a very, very nice DVD player, and rivals Cineplayer 1.5 for everything but pans, whic don't seem quite as smooth (nor as smooth as my HOLO card.) For the first time in a while, I could see trying out an n'Vidia card in an HTPC. I'm once again looking into the banding and scaling issues that drove many of us into the ATI camp.

Steve Goff

**JonMarsh** · 18 November 2002, 22:26 Monday

Did you check out the video calibration screens in the configuration panel? Don't hardly even need Avia with this baby.... at least not for some of the basics.

I picked up an inexpensive GeForce 4 MX440 just to see if there's anything to the VPE stuff and how well NVDVD supports it...

Hardware Gamma support
IQ, iDCT, motion compensation, and colorspace conversion for MPEG decoding
Support for progressive and interlaced output on overlay, up to 1080i, with component video output supported with Philips or Conexant tri-level sync chip
5 tap horizontal and 3 tap vertical filter scaling
Dual 10 bit 350 MHz RAMDACs

Looks like some interesting potential, there. What's kind of unfortunate is how the higher end cards from nVidia and ATI are now so focused on 3D performance that MPEG decoding support and video performance are going somewhat by the wayside.

I'll report back after some chances to evaluate later this week or weekend how the combo works.

One point which does seem to be important, ironically, to obtaining the smoothest video performance, is the audio system. I have seen countless posts in other locales discussing stutters and panning issues which have only been resolved by driver or hardware upgrades on the audio side. It will be interesting to see how sensitve this combo is, and what kind of CPU utilization occurs. Of course, I should expect to have problems, since almost every MB I have uses VIA + AMD. However, on my desktop this runs very well and glitch free. That's a year old MSI KT400A based system with 1 GHz Athlon running XP Pro.

Regards,

Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

**Steve Goff** · 19 November 2002, 01:05 Tuesday

I've read about the stuttering problem associated with audio. I had a major sticking/stuttering problem using the HOLO card with the MX420 until I installed the Detonator driver. The maker of the HOLO card, Immersive, is soon to come out with a stand-alone DVD player and scaler. Even though it has many more functions than the HOLO card, I bet it will be much easier to debug, since it will live in its own little universe.

Steve Goff

**JonMarsh** · 20 November 2002, 12:37 Wednesday

I'm sure you're right about that, Steve. The flexibility of the PC is also what makes it such a nightmare to guarantee a particular complex configuration will work in a variety of systems with other hardware.

I did get a 440MX running last night- interestingly, or unfortunately, the hardware gamma control doesn't seem to be implmeneted. However, general picture quality is a bit better than for the Ti4200, including shadow detail after setup using the supplied calibration screens. Meant to check CPU utilization, but forgot... I got distracted :LOL:

AOTC looked very nice, but then it looks very nice on a lot of things...

-Jon

Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

HDTPC MkII? Or, never open your mouth at work

HDTPC MkII? Or, never open your mouth at work

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