PC Building Help

[Nick M]

Okay guys, I need some of your help.

I built myself a PC four or five years, but haven't delved into the subject much since then. I'm really out of touch as to which processors fit which sockets nowadays, and what type of RAM is best for various systems.

Any good websites for this info?

I plan on building something with the following...

1. Best Performance/Value CPU... I'm willing to spend a bit.
2. MOBO that is hopefully a bit compact.
3. 2-4GB of RAM (Do I really need more than 2?)
3. GPU that will support dual 30" screens at full resolution.
4. Speedy HDD, size is not an issue - 100GB would be fine.
5. Speedy DVD-ROM (Something that reads fast and burns CDs quickly, writing DVDs is a non-issue - nor is BR/HD-DVD).
6. An adequate power supply.
7. A compact case, I might even build my own.

I'm looking to spend between $1500 and $2000 for the computer (excluding displays and accessories).

This is going to be used for school and personal hobbies. I'm an Engineering student, so this will be used for CAD, 3D modeling, computation with Mathematica, and the odd game. The rest of the time it will be used for programming suites, office apps, and other common tasks.

Any info appreciated.

EDIT: Sound is not a big deal, integrated audio would be fine, or a cheap-o deluxe audio card.

[dyazdani]

Nick, for that budget you will have no issue building a screaming PC. I often look at the site "SharkyExtreme" to see what components they are recommending, they spec out gaming PCs.

For CPUs, you might think about a dual CPU setup like Jason's dual Opterons. That might help speed up any modeling or engineering simulations you might be doing. CAD doesn't take much, just get a good monitor.

The mobo is going to be pretty standard in size, an ATX platform is the norm. You can get a microATX, but they tend to be lower in performance (in general).

For the prices of RAM these days, I'd just get 4GB though I'm sure 2GB would be fine.

I'm not up to date on the latest GPUs, hopefully someone else can chime in.

The rest is no big deal. I'd tend to look for a manufactured case simply because of the time it would take to design one. A lot of work goes into building the rails, modules, etc for HDDs and other drives. Some cases have a very nice modular system like the MacPro style.

[Kevin P]

1. Best Performance/Value CPU... I'm willing to spend a bit.
2. MOBO that is hopefully a bit compact.
3. 2-4GB of RAM (Do I really need more than 2?)
3. GPU that will support dual 30" screens at full resolution.
4. Speedy HDD, size is not an issue - 100GB would be fine.
5. Speedy DVD-ROM (Something that reads fast and burns CDs quickly, writing DVDs is a non-issue - nor is BR/HD-DVD).
6. An adequate power supply.
7. A compact case, I might even build my own.

I'm looking to spend between $1500 and $2000 for the computer (excluding displays and accessories).

I've built systems using AMD as well as Intel CPUs. Currently Intel is in the lead with the Core 2 series. Dual-core chips are pretty cheap now, quad cores are still pricey. I'm partial to ASUS motherboards myself. Pick a size that is a good fit for your case. ATX and Micro ATX are the two most common types, Micro ATX being smaller for smaller cases, but offering fewer expansion slots.

Video - take your pick. nVidia and ATI both have decent chipsets (I tend to lean toward nVidia as their drivers are better, though ATI tends to run cooler). Many cards are available with dual DVI and/or VGA outputs to run dual monitors from one card.

RAM - 2 GB is plenty unless you're into hardcore gaming or running 10 applications at once under Vista. That said, avoid Vista, stick with XP for now. I have 2 GB in my Phantom Stalker II PC and I doubt I ever use most of it. Also check out my Phantom Myth HTPC.

Hard Drive - the higher the RPM, the faster the drive in general, but higher-RPM drives run hotter and are noisier. WD Raptors are among the fastest around, but they're expensive per GB. A 7200 RPM Samsung or Seagate will be fine, very quiet drives, and you can get 300+ GB for real cheap. Avoid Maxtor like the plague, their drives are crappy. Go with a SATA interface for the best speed and future proofing. Most/all motherboards have SATA interfaces on them now.

DVD drives - I've been satisified with Lite-On drives (they are the OEM that makes the Sony drives). A DVD burner is just as cheap nowadays as a combo DVD-ROM/CD-RW so you might as well just get the burner. Once again, go SATA if possible, as more burners are coming out with SATA interfaces.

Power Supply - many cases come with them standard, but read the reviews. Some power supplies are cheaply made and can fail or lead to problems down the road. If you don't mind spending a little extra get a PC Power and Cooling PSU. Their Silencer series are quiet and reliable. A 450 watt unit should be plenty unless you go all out with gaming performance or put a stack of hard drives in the case.

Sound - integrated is fine unless you're going to use your PC as a source for hi-fi audio into your HT/audio system. Many mobos have S/PDIF (digital coax and/or optical) outputs on them as well.

Case - look for one with 120MM fan(s), they run cooler with less noise than smaller fans.

In any case, $1500-2000 will get you a KILLER system. You may find you're able to build the system you want for quite a bit less. Usually when I build a decent-build (near but not bleeding cutting-edge) system I end up spending around $1200.

[dyazdani]

In fact, I have a new SATA DVD burner from Lite-On sitting at my house. You can have it if you want. I bought it for my old computer by ordered the SATA version instead of the IDE by mistake.

[aud19]

Yeah I got a dual-Dual core Opteron setup with dual 37Gb WD Raptors (setup in raid for speed), 2GB of Kingston PC800 DDR RAM, LiteOn DVD-RW, Asus mobo and Asus (Nvidia) 8600GTS Silent at work for ~$1500CA so you should be good

It's a bit of a screamer though when the Cool & Quiet decides it's no longer cool (and quickly becomes un-quiet) :lol:

So if you don't need quite that much horsepower and want to save a bit of $$ Here's what I'd recommend;

Don't make a case. Being that you can find lot's of nice ones for ~$50 it's just not worth it IMO. And unless you REALLY need it small go regular ATX, easier to work on, more air space for hot components, more expansion room etc.

Sparkle makes inexpensive, good PS's, get one with a 120mm fan ~450W

Asus mobo, I vote for the M2N-E.

Probably go with the AMD Athlon 64 X2 5000+ seems to be the best compromise on speed/price/heat

2GB RAM should be enough especially if you stick to XP (you should) but more is always better :B

I'd get the LiteOn 20A1H probably, IMO there's no reason to go SATA for you optical drive. There's no speed gains etc. I also like to get a secondary DVD-ROM only drive so you can do direct copies or still have a drive available if the other is busy etc plus they tend to work a little faster than burners for ripping audio etc.

Get a WD, Seagate or Samsung drive. No reason to get smaller than 250Gb now with prices where they are. (Quite happy with my new WD's at home and the WD Raptors FWIW but any of those brands make good drives)

I too prefer Nvidia cards, better drivers, support (and video playback).
Probably go with Asus 8600 GTS silent still.

[Kevin P]

It's a bit of a screamer though when the Cool & Quiet decides it's no longer cool (and quickly becomes un-quiet) :lol:

Toss a good aftermarket heatsink/fan on that CPU and you may never have it come out of C&Q mode. About the only time my CPU fan RPM goes up is on a hot summer day with SETI running.

[aud19]

Toss a good aftermarket heatsink/fan on that CPU and you may never have it come out of C&Q mode. About the only time my CPU fan RPM goes up is on a hot summer day with SETI running.

Trying to cram TWO of those large aftermarket HS's in my case would not be fun :lol:

If you know of any that work on dual Opteron's you let me know

[Nick M]

My last computer had the following...

2.26 GHz P4
ASUS MOBO
1GB RDRAM
128MB ATi Card
Soundblaster Audigy
ATi TV Tuner PCI Card
120GB WD Caviar HDD
Lite-On CD-RW
Lite-On DVD-ROM
Integrated Ethernet
XP Pro

I also found that ATi drivers sucked.
My TV card never really worked 100%.
The next unit will most likely be nVidia.
A single DVD+-R/RW would be okay.

I don't plan on building until this summer, just doing some research ahead of time. I'm looking at a pair of 30" Dell screens to accompany it, perhaps one to start and then another a bit later if needed. It would be nice to have one full screen for CAD and one for Office apps and Mathematica. This will be my desktop for at least 3-4 years.
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What's the scoop on Intel vs AMD? Xeon vs C2D? Twin CPUs vs a Single jobber?

[dyazdani]

Hehe, a pair of 30" screens would be just awesome!

[aud19]

What's the scoop on Intel vs AMD? Xeon vs C2D? Twin CPUs vs a Single jobber?

I just plain don't like Intel (business practices etc...kinda like I don't buy Monster products for the same reasons) but the last time I checked they were slightly ahead of AMD on the bleeding edge of CPU's. In the real world you're doubtfully going to see much if any difference so again, my preference is for AMD. Likely be a bit cheaper for the CPU and mobo too (though not always guaranteed).

Unless you plan on doing REALLY intensive 3d rendering or photo editing etc dual core, single CPU is likely more than enough. Dual CPU isn't really necessary for the general public IMO and single is MUCH cheaper. Going dual CPU really limits your mobo selection, not to mention you also start having to buy registered ECC RAM (more expensive again).

Really you should be able to build a VERY nice (reliable, quick, quiet) single CPU, dual core machine for $800-$1200 easily.

[Hdale85]

Your talking about using autocad its minimum memmory and cpu requirments are 2gb's of ram and 2.4ghz p4 so I'd say definitely go with the 4gb's of memory. I love the Core 2 Duo's or quads...for the money you were going to put into a mac pro you could easily get the quad core Core 2. I would definitely do this over going with a dual cpu setup. The Opterons and Xeons are nice but not sure they would be that much better then the current dual core and quad core cpu's. Xeon and Opteron motherboards get kind of pricey But if your going to dump in that much money by all means...would be rather sweet.

[Hdale85]

I've been planning out a build for a CNC Mill I'm building and this is what I've thought about so far:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115017

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131028

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820220267

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814150229

I'll have to run cad software a lot too and would like to use dual screen eventually. I may grab this CPU and swap it out with my desktop CPU and use the current one I have in the CAD machine.

[aud19]

Your talking about using autocad its minimum memmory and cpu requirments are 2gb's of ram and 2.4ghz p4

I work on autocad all day and unless you're doing HUGE 3D stuff 2GB is plenty. But as you say, his budget has room for it and RAM's relatively cheap these days so by all means

[Hdale85]

Exactly DDR2 is so cheap right now.. that ram is 4 sticks of matched 1gb ddr2 800 and its like 130 bucks.... Just a few months ago when I built my current pc that was like 300+

[dyazdani]

Your talking about using autocad its minimum memmory and cpu requirments are 2gb's of ram and 2.4ghz p4 so I'd say definitely go with the 4gb's of memory.

I don't know what version that is, but I have AutoCAD 2005 running on an old Celeron 1.x Hz and 256MB of ram... It works just great in 2D. I didn't do any 3D rendering though.

As I said before though, I'd go with 4GB anyway just because it's so cheap now.

[Hdale85]

Well the newest version I have requires 2gb's and 2.4ghz p4. Thats AutoCad 2008. My friend picked it up as he's a student...retail price is crazy.

[aud19]

Well the newest version I have requires 2gb's and 2.4ghz p4. Thats AutoCad 2008. My friend picked it up as he's a student...retail price is crazy.

Must be the minimum for the 3d requirements...not quite sure why but every version they seem to put more rendering capability in Autocad... I thought that's what Max/Viz where for....?

[Nick M]

I would really like to build a semi-compact form-factored PC.
Thinking about a Micro-ATX style MOBO like the following...

Intel BLKDG31PR
Intel G31 Northbridge
Intel ICH7 Southbridge
LGA 775 Socket (For Core 2 Duo)
PCI Express 16X
SATA Interface
2x 240 Pin DDR2 Slots
Integrated Audio (Has 2 PCI Slots Too)
4x USB 2.0

$80. It also has great reviews.
I've built a couple PC's with ASUS boards before, but I'd like to try Intel. After all, they make the CPU, NB, and SB.




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Need to learn more about the latest and greatest in GPUs.
What's the deal with the really expensive workstation units like the Quadro and Fire GL/ML? I want something that won't be troubled with the software I use in Engineering, and will also handle the occasional game well.

[Kevin P]

Nice mobo Nick but I tend to shy away from ones with integrated video. I'm sure it can be disabled though, but you never know how well a high-performance video card will get along with it.

[Nick M]

Good point Kevin.
Perhaps I should look for one without integrated Video.
-----
Reading reviews online, it seems that many people simply buy the über-gamer cards rather than workstation cards like the Quadro/Fire units.

I was looking at something like this, which is priced at an entry level workstation level.

PNY GeForce 8800GTX 768MB 384 Bit GDDR3 PCI Express x16 HDCP SLI

[Nick M]

So maybe something along these lines...

3.0GHz Core 2 Duo
Intel Motherboard (Integrated Audio)
4GB PC2 6400 DDR2 RAM
PCIe16 768MB 384 Bit GDDR3 GPU
WD Raptor X 10,000RPM 150GB SATA HDD
Lite-On DVD+-R/RW Optical Drive (Record CD-R's @ 40x)
Case, PS, Cables

Keyboard & Mouse
Dell 2560x1600 30" LCD

[dyazdani]

That looks pretty good. I'd still add another optical drive, they come in handy and it's only another $20 max.

Have you compared the Dell against the Apple displays?

[Kevin P]

My ears hurt just looking at that video card. Can you say fan noise?

Well if it's noisy you could replace the HSF on it with an aftermarket one. I did that on my Myth box. I need to do it on the Stalker as well, since the stock video cooler is starting to get rattly.

[Hdale85]

I've actually heard Intel motherboards aren't the greatest but I have no personal experience with them . I have a gigabyte in my current pc and will probably get an asus for the mill machine. You're going to have a hard time finding a micro atx motherboard without onboard video.

The apple 30" display uses 2 dvi ports if I recall correctly... And they used to have funky driver issues with windows pc's although not sure if thats fixed currently.

I played around with AutoCad some yesterday and I can easily see the need and want for a 30" display.

[dyazdani]

I like the Asus mobos as well. I put a Gigabyte in my inlaws PC that I built for them, it was good for the money.

My current PC has an Abit mobo, it's been solid, but my next high end PC will have Asus. Unless, of course, I get another Mac.

[aud19]

Yeah I've tried a couple other brands of mobo's and always come back to Asus. They just seem to be better quality, more stable, good support etc. Pretty safe bet when EVERYONE says they're good boards I've also heard mixed reviews of Intel boards (FWIW, sticking with Intel for their name ...in any component, is VERY over-rated IMO...I'll leave that alone now :lol: ) I too doubt you'll find any micro-ATX boards without on-board video...ATX is really a better route to go if you have an extra couple inches.

I'll also second Kev's recommendation on looking for alternatives to the GIANT FAN on that vid card. Check out Asus's silent series of graphics cards, it's all I use now. No fan to break or clog with dust, and make zero noise :B FYI, the difference between the consumer cards and pro cards like the Quadro's when I looked in to it where pretty much two things, price (pro's being a fair bit more) and slightly different drivers. Unless you're going to start working for Pixar, it's a waste of money IMO.

Like Danish, I also vote for a second optical drive. Cheap and handy.

While we're at it may as well get two WD Raptors (I've got two of the 37GB in my work system) and Raid them, you'll end up with ~70GB and wickedly fast read/write. My IT guy benchmarked them in my system and was SHOCKED at how fast they read/wrote/accessed. Just make sure you have a backup system

[Hdale85]

They have the ones that are a little bigger then 100gigs now

I would probably go with a standard ATX motherboard and use one of the media center style cases if your going for pretty small. Just an idea.

[dyazdani]

While we're at it may as well get two WD Raptors (I've got two of the 37GB in my work system) and Raid them, you'll end up with ~70GB and wickedly fast read/write. My IT guy benchmarked them in my system and was SHOCKED at how fast they read/wrote/accessed. Just make sure you have a backup system

I was going to suggest that too, but I haven't done any testing or comparison of a system that was set up that way.

[aud19]

They have the ones that are a little bigger then 100gigs now

I would probably go with a standard ATX motherboard and use one of the media center style cases if your going for pretty small. Just an idea.

The 10K Raptors only come in 37, 75 and 150 I believe I do like the media centre style case suggestion though, that'd be VERY nice :yesnod:

[Hdale85]

I may do 2 of the 150's for my cad machine...and seeing as how most of the files will be backed up on a usb drive I don't think I'll need to have any redundancy system. Actually the 150's are really spensive...

[aud19]

I may do 2 of the 150's for my cad machine...and seeing as how most of the files will be backed up on a usb drive I don't think I'll need to have any redundancy system. Actually the 150's are really spensive...

Yeah two 37's is more than enough room for an OS, programs etc and is WAY cheaper if you don't need the storage space for media etc.

[Nick M]

I may move to an ATX board... I just don't want a big huge box in my office.
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I'm not so sure I want to have a raid setup. A single 10kRPM drive that is 100GB+ would be more than sufficient. In fact, I could probably just go with a 7200RPM drive. But the prices aren't that much different (well they are per GB I guess).
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Still looking at a 30" Dell LCD.
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I wonder how loud that card is, and if it's always running. I really don't mind some fan noise though. I'll listen to some fan noise if it saves me $500-$1000.

[Kevin P]

If you want speed and capacity, you could put the OS on a Raptor and then get a larger, slower 2nd drive to store data.

[Nick M]

Kevin - I thought of doing that. A board with a bunch of SATA connectors would allow for that. I could start with a 150GB Raptor, and then add a huge slow drive (750GB-1TB) for sharing files on my wireless network. Most Micro-ATX cases have room for a couple HDD and a single optical.

I might go with an ATX board and a midtower.

[aud19]

Well the Raid's nice for both CAD/3D performance and game play etc. Really anything that needs to access HD space quickly. But that's up to you.

As for storage IMO your better off going with something like the QNAP NAS I got (which I LOVE BTW) or an external drive/enclosure you can use for backup, storage, portability etc. I've got a couple of the WD 500GB 24X7(server models) in mine that are dead quiet and working well so far (knock on wood :lol: )

http://www.qnap.com/pro_detail_feature.asp?p_id=83 :T

[Nick M]

Well if I have the internal room, buying an internal HDD will save me the cost of an enclosure, and there will be one less cable to fool around with (two less if the external drive has a separate power source).

I don't plan to build until later this spring/early summer, so undoubtedly things on this list will change. But the plan/form factor/knowledge will be in place.

I also need to pick up a copy of the latest AutoCAD which is $300+ for a student copy without time limits. But the student version is exactly the same as the multi-thousand dollar standard version except for print-outs, which contain a header at the top of each copy stating that it is a student version.

I'm still thinking about making my own case at work... a really nice one. I like the ideas of making it out of either aluminum or a glass-plastic material.

[aud19]

Yeah it's more cables etc but they sure are WAY nicer, more convenient etc. Plus with something like the NAS you don't have to have the power sucking PC on 24X7 and you still have access to all your files on the network and over the internet if you like. SO much better IMO.

[Kevin P]

Want NAS without your power sucking PC on 24/7? Dig an old Dell out of a dumpster and toss Ubuntu on it. Then it can do a lot more than just a dumb old NAS drive.

Besides, every geek should have a Linux box to play with! :B

[aud19]

Want NAS without your power sucking PC on 24/7? Dig an old Dell out of a dumpster and toss Ubuntu on it. Then it can do a lot more than just a dumb old NAS drive.

Well the Qnap does a lot more than just NAS drive too if you click on the link

[Hdale85]

Well I don't know how to setup ubuntu to do near as much as the Qnap NAS not to mention pretty sure it does run linux

[PewterTA]

ubuntu is free and take about 2x the amount of time to set up over a Qnap Nas. Now for free and a little bit extra time, you get a TON more with Ubuntu.

Installing is on par with installing Windows. Plus you can get the server option which does just about anything you want it to... So if you have a PC lying around not in use, it's a great way to get it up and running again as a server for all your needs.

[Hdale85]

Hmm....do me a favor Name something the Qnap doesn't do that you would want it to do Honestly it does just about anything a full blown server would do.

[PewterTA]

I want to add over 2 TB to my file server... There's one thing.

I'm not saying it's not a nice thing to have or it doesn't do anything else besides being a NAS. I'm just saying if you have an old PC laying around, with Ubuntu (or the various other Linux installs) you can create the same thing for not much money (depending on what drives you put in it).

When you spend ~$350 and have to supply the drives as well, you could build it yourself and get "overall" more enjoyment/longevity out of a DIY setup.

[PewterTA]

I just built this for a friend. Very fast PC...not the fastest mind you...but fast enough.

Asus Maximus Formula/SE MB
Intel Core 2 Duo Conroe 3.0GHz
Corsair Dominator 4GB DDR2 (PC2 8500)
Seagate Barracuda SATA 750GB 7200 RPM (x2)
EVGA GeForce 8600GTS
ThermalTake Armor Case
Total = $1100

Damn fine machine for just about all your needs. Unless you are a hard-core gamer, but this thing does everything it needs to.