Toshiba TLP-X10?

[P-Dub]

Hey guys, I'm looking at this used projector, a Toshiba TLP-X10. This projector looks pretty interesting for $1700. Any thoughts to ensure if I go for it, that I get what I paid for?

Is this a decent projector for basic HT use? The specs say it's way better than my work projector.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[JonMarsh]

Interesting opportunity, Paul, at a reasonable price.

I love lists, so let's make some lists.

Pluses

1. XGA resolution - 1024X768
2. 2000 lumens - plenty bright enough for large screen
3. Built in scaler, compatible with 480i, 480p, 1080i, etc.
4. RGB inputs, can use with HTPC
5. Low price
6. 400:1 claimed factory on/off contrast ratio

Minuses?

1. Internal scalers are often a performance factor/limiting item with business projectors. Getting the ultimate performance from it may require an HTPC. XGA projectors can be quite good with both 4:3 and anamorhpic DVD's through an HTPC; but built in scalers often have alising issues, and effectively throw away part of the HF bandwidth- i.e., a SuperBIT DVD won't look any better than the standard version of the same movie. The only way to know for sure would be to check it out with the resolution test patterns on Avia, for example.
2. It's bright. Business projectors are optimized for brightness, not color accuracy or contrast. Part of contrast optimization is optics with low internal reflectivity. I would be personally skeptical about claims of 400:1 and better with an LCD- but it's not impossible. Speccing it as an on/off ratio raises some question, since real contrast is black level in presense of white level. On/off is cheating a bit. Apparent contrast can be optimized by screen choice and by using screen backlighting; this helps "stop down" the eyeball a little, and increases subjective contrast. Another factor is bulb- business LCD projectors typically use UHP bulbs, which have strong blue and green output, but are weaker in the red spectrum. It's possible to help this, and improve subjective contrast, by using an image "enhancing filter"; these attenuate blue and green somewhat while letting red through; a good coated 95 mm filter from K&R (Germany) is about $130. Recalibration of bias and gain for LCD panels is necessary.
3. Model is out of production- not likely to be a liability; Toshiba should have parts and support for years. Curretn similar projector is TLP-781

For $1700, it's pretty tempting. Similar performance from current models from Toshiba or Sony, from a reputable Internet dealer like ProjectorPeople (who has consistently low prices) would run $4500 to $5K. It would certainly be a very reasonable price point to get your feet wet with FPTV; I just wanted to be sure you understood the possible caveats, and what it might take to optimize the "viewing experience".

Best regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[P-Dub]

Thanks for the excellent reply Jon.

With respect to the minus:

1. Hmm, wasn't aware of that, but using a laptop should overcome that problem, yes? Would this be more pronounced when using a component conection vs S-video?
2. The ad claims an even higher 600:1 when properly calibrated. The bulb is speced as a 210W NSH, in the manual it says High pressure mercury lamp, is that the same? The work projector I'm comparing it to has a 120W UHP, only 700 lumens and a 250 contrast ratio and a 0.7" LCD.
3. Out of production, that concerned me a bit. But lamp life is rated at 2,000 hours, and only 20 hours has been used. We'll see about that.

The price is very tempting, even with the conversion that I have to face, US$1,700 is approx C$2,600. The closest competitor is the Panasonic PT-AE100 which I can get for around $3,300.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[JonMarsh]

1. It depends on the laptop. The video in most laptops is optimized for power, not peformance. Witness my Sony 1 GHz Athlon laptop, which only with the Cinemaster XP DVD pack has acceptable performance without dropping frames- whereas I've built 450 MHz desktops with Matrox, nVidia, and ATI cards that work very well. A laptop with Radeon Mobility or GeForce to Go will work pretty well. The ATI chips have the best decoded color, because they use 10bit DAC's, and higher bit depth intermdeiate processing, while most PC video cards output 8Bit only.

1a. Issues with regards to video performance due to scaling are most pronounced working from NTSC and scaling up. S-Video or component won't make much difference with regards to aliasing and scaling quality, though component video is a significant advantage due to higher color bandwidth (chroma resolution). The scaling hardware in the better PC video boards, like Matrox, nVidia, and ATI, will make the most of a DVD image, even if you're going up to 1280X720, like I do. They also work quite nicely at 1024X768, which is what I use for 4:3 source material like Farscape DVD's.

2. Bulb type, optical path, LCD polarizers, beam splitters, all these components have their affect on contrast ratio. On/Off contrast ratio is measured by playing either a full black or full white field, and measuring the contrast difference. SMPTE constrast is done with an alternating checkerboard; it is a better test, because it reveals issues due to light leakage and scattering, which can occur in many parts of the optics. (I realize I'm being a little hyper critical here with regards to a $1700 deal! . Sony and Toshiba get a real 2000 ANSI lumens with their current models, using 200W UHP bulbs. The UHP bulb has fairly consistent light output over most of it's life. Most UHP bulb projectors use a dual mode ballast, which gives 1000 hours at rated brightness, and 2000 hours at about 1/2 the light output. Bulbs are usually available for some time, and many are used by more than one manufacturer.

The X10 is of the same family as the X20, which is still in production; it has the same lamp, a document camera, and is rated for 2400 lumens.

Good luck making up your mind, Paul! You've got basically three choices, you can either get it, or you pass this time.

Regards,

Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[P-Dub]

1. The laptop in question is a Dell Inspiron 8000, with an ATI Mobility chip. I spec'd that out to 32M when I got it for my wife. I've hooked that unit up to our work projector, and the output has been very pleasing. There were a couple of times when I noticed some ghosting, but didn't have the time nor inclination to trace the problem. I just chalked it up to a poor projector. Hmm with my old workhorse of a CPU, a Celron 450 with my new Matrox G550 card, sounds like it would make a pretty good HTPC.

1.a So we're talking about NTSC signals, is that just broadcast, or this means DVD interlaced as well. What about feeding a progressive signal, ie through a progressive scan DVD player. Rats, that might be something I need to buy, not to mention about 12 feet of component cable.

2. I see. I guess the ultimate test is with my eyes.

Another nice thing is the unit exhausts from the front.

This is gonna be a tough decision. I'm coming from a direct view background, 27" set. I've had some experience with a projector I borrowed from work, a Sanyo PLCS-SW10. I've been quite satisfied with it's performance and thus have something as a reference. I'm not trying to kid myself in thinking that this Toshiba will be the ultimate projector for HT use, but if it can pass and produce a better picture that the work projector, I'm going to be one happy camper.

The only caveat is, I won't know if this unit works out of the box. This will be the largest amount that I'm spending on my HT and doing so over the net has raised some issues for me.

Will let you all know how this works out.

[JonMarsh]

Keep us posted, Paul. The value is unquestionable, as long as the deal works out.

The laptop should be fine for HTPC use. Ghosting can be due to both the motion compensation mode in the MPEG decoder, or delay in the LCD panels. I've seen that more on laptops and desktop displays than LCD projectors.

The Sanyo you're talking about is an SVGA projector, right, similar to the PLC-SW15? I'd think the Toshiba would be a significant step up.

When I refer to NTSC video sources, and scaling issues, I'm referring to anything in the 480i/480P range. You'd probably find a progressive DVD player will do better; try the new Denon 1600; it's got one of the newer Sage/Faraoudja chips, and is free of the "dreaded chroma bug".

The only business projectors I've had a chance to compare have been some InFocus models (both SVGA and XGA), and a couple of Sony XGA models, the CX11 and the VPL-PX10. The PX10 blows away the Infocus's on brightness, color saturation and fidelity, but contrast is a little lacking. On the right material, it can look pretty stunning.

I've bought a few Aragon amps from private individuals over the 'net, and so far that's worked out. However, I do know other people that have been burned.

Best of luck if you decide to go for it (may through an escrow account?), and let us know how it turns out!

-Jon




Earth First!
_______________________________
We'll screw up the other planets later....

[Daryl Furkalo]

Paul,

The celeron 450 might be a little lacking in the performance department. I tried to convert my cel 366 to HTPC, with an ATI Rage128 32MB video card but on video based DVD's I got stuttering. Film based DVD's may have worked fine, though I didn't try, since I have LOTS have video-based DVD's in my collection. I have 384MB RAM too.

Not trying to sway your decision on the Toshiba, but if you are interested in a CRT-based projector, there is a very well known CRT technician in the Vancouver area you can deal with face-to-face.

[George Bellefontaine]

Paul, at $700 more, the Panny is a 16:9 projector and made especially for home theater, just like my Sony VPL400. Now the Tosh may be a better projector all around, but without the ability to view them both how can you know for sure. Other thing is, warranty issues. I believe the Panny has a 3 year warranty and with service in Canada. Will the Tosh have a warranty, and if so do you have to ship it to the US for service ? Lcd projectors can be cranky, believe me from my own experience, so warranty and service should really be an issue.
Just my 2 cents worth, Paul. Whichever way you go, I'm glad to see you are serious about front projection. Keep us updated.
George




My Homepage!

[P-Dub]

Jon: Yes, the Sanyo is a SVGA projector, the SW15 is the replacement. I'm going to have to read upon the newer progressive scan players. I've heard of the 'chroma bug' but haven't paid too much attention to is as I don't have the display for it to show up. Now I might.

Daryl: Hmm, I think my conversion would be a while down the road, as if I did the conversion, I'd be out of a main cpu. I think I might have seen his ad from time to time, don't have the number handy at all. But I'm not really interested in CRT as physically, they are too big to realistically fit into my apartment.

George: Thanks for the warranty reminder, I'll have to check in on that. I'm pretty sure if I have a problem I'd have to send it back to the states for repair. About how long into the ownership cycle will problems crop up? I know, that's like asking, so where's the stock price going to be in 3 months.

I'm definitely serious about getting a FPTV setup. But I don't want to be stuck with a lemon. That would be the worst. I was saving up for something like the Panasonic, but that original time frame would have been about another year away at the earliest. This projector deal just came up from surfing the net. So in a sense I'm not totally ready.

For example, I need to figure out what to do about a screen, I need to figure out where I would mount the projector, either have a temp setup or a permanent setup, I need to figure out my cabling situration, etc. I had hoped to have all these minor details worked out in some form before looking to purchase.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[P-Dub]

Now to through a curve into the whole situation. I've been informed, thanks Erik, that I can get either the Sanyo PLCS-SW15 for US$1,495 shipped or the PLCS-SW20 for US$1,725 shipped. These are new units and have full waranty. Though probably I'd still have to ship it to the States for warranty work.

So what to do? On spec the SW20 is closer to the used Toshiba, but about 1,000 less in lumens. The contrast is about the same, and as discussed before, one really needs to see it in person to fully determine the proper level.

Now I'm uncertain as to what to do. The main attraction of the Toshiba was the relatively cheap price, esepcially compared to it's original list price, and the going street price. Upon review of the specifications, the 2,000 lumens really attraced me as that will help compensate for higher ambient lighting. I do have some control over lighting, and the old Sanyo at 700 worked pretty well. The Toshiba had a wide variety of inputs as well as DVI which is nice to have, but not really necessary, but it does require a special VGA-BNC cable for component input.

On the other hand, the comprably priced Sanyo is less powerful in terms of brightness, but it's 'new'. I'm assuming the performance should be better than the older Sanyo. And I've been pretty satisfied with the old unit as well.

hmmm, decisions, decisions.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.

[Markj]

I don’t know anything about the projectors that you are considering but remember right now it seems that newer projectors have much better technology so an older unit will not perform as well as a less expensive newer module.

Now there is a run-on sentence.

[Daryl Furkalo]

Paul,

I know the feeling of trying to fit a CRT into an apartment. That is why I waited until I bought a house.

[P-Dub]

Well the final decision was to hold off on this projector purchase.

Main reason was budget.

What has been really good was discovering that there are other projectors on the market that offer better performance to my work projector at a significantly lower cost. Now I will have to try and keep up with the various new developments.




Paul

There are three kinds of people in this world; those that can count, and those that can't.