I scream You scream we all scream for a nice Screen!!!

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  • Bam!
    Super Senior Member
    • Jan 2004
    • 2458

    I scream You scream we all scream for a nice Screen!!!

    Hey guys! You like that one!

    So my buddy has narrowed down his choices to the Infocus X1 or matinee 1HD...we are going to see them together this week or so...So what is next? The Screen!

    What is the story on the gain of a screen and what are we lookin`for to enhance the picture..unlike Ariel he is not lookin`for motorized nor perforated screen...

    I will see about Carada as I know it is a sponsor...but I want to know what are the characteristics of a screen

    Thanks!




    Bam!
    Got a nice rack to show me ?
  • Lex
    Moderator Emeritus
    • Apr 2001
    • 27461

    #2
    Bam, very clever title. :LOL:

    Here's my take on it.

    1. grey screens while enhancing blacks, don't do to much for whites IMO. I don't care for them myself.
    2. High gain screens brighten everything greatly, but at a cost of "greyer" blacks". Blacks are one of the more difficult aspects for projectors, and in my opinion, a high gain screen destroys this.
    3. We are left with low gain. (around a 1.0) This would be Carada's Classic white. IMO, it's a nice compromise. It still brightens the image slightly, but not to much at the expense of blacks/greys. Colors are realistic, true to life as possible.

    In the end, I say don't go higher than a 1.0 gain, and avoid grey unless you have a really bright projector or know you will have a really dim/dark room!

    Watch out for screen door on the LCD and rainbow on the digital projector. Be sure to view from planned viewing distance.

    Lex
    Doug
    "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

    Comment

    • Bam!
      Super Senior Member
      • Jan 2004
      • 2458

      #3
      Lex!

      Thanks for the detailed reply as usual...How much does that Carada with 1.0 gain fo for?

      Thanks again!




      Bam!
      Got a nice rack to show me ?

      Comment

      • George Bellefontaine
        Moderator Emeritus
        • Jan 2001
        • 7637

        #4
        Hey, Bam, I also go for the 1 gain screen. Have used it with a crt fp, lcd and dlp and it works great with all. For Carada prices, click on their site at the bottom of this page. Lex will hug you for doing so.




        My Homepage!
        My Homepage!

        Comment

        • Paul H
          Senior Member
          • Feb 2004
          • 904

          #5
          Hey, I clicked on the PE link almost a week ago and ordered a bunch of parts. Where's my hug? :LOL: :evil: :LOL:

          Paul

          Comment

          • Brandon B
            Super Senior Member
            • Jun 2001
            • 2193

            #6
            Have to dissent on the high gain subject. I have one of the brightest PJs in HT (2200 lumens out of the box), and one of the higher gain screens (Dalite high power 2.8 on axis), and have to say a bright punchy image is addictive.

            It does have the noted tradeoff of higher black level, but this only is a drawback during all low level dark scenes. In scenes of mixed luminosity, it's all relative and the blacks look as black as they would on any other screen. And in bright scenes the screen really shines

            My friend recently got his HS20 with the same screen, and at half the brightness, the image has a whole different feeling. He agrees the brightness is preferable, and he's not one to admit something of his is lacking compared to other's equipment.

            Basically, ask yourself whether your prefer the look of a regular RPTV vs. a plasma, picture size and quality being otherwise equal. Had all sorts of people "explain" why my setup is to bright, but once they've seen it, they change their mind.

            So I would not personally rule out a high gain screen no matter what type of PJ you have.

            BB

            Comment

            • Bam!
              Super Senior Member
              • Jan 2004
              • 2458

              #7
              Brandon!

              Thanks for the input...Can you explain to me how this gain thing works...Is there a chart can you compare it to amps..what?

              Paul! I can' t offer you a hug but how about :smootch: !!!

              Take care and maybe I will gain some knowledge here!!!(The punmaster strikes again!)




              Bam!
              Got a nice rack to show me ?

              Comment

              • Brandon B
                Super Senior Member
                • Jun 2001
                • 2193

                #8
                Gain is basically the light scattering characteristic of the screen.

                A unity (1.0) gain screen will pretty much take an incident beam of light and scatter it equally in all directions, like a flat white wall.

                As the screen becomes more "reflective". more light is sent back towards the source. In a retro reflective screen, it is sent back AT the source, rather than reflecting to the other side of the normal from vertical. The dalite highpower is this type, meaning a low or table mounted projector will look brighter at a seated position. A standard reflective higher gain screen (like a stewart firehawk) will reflect to the other side of the incident normal, meaning a high or ceiling mounted projector will look brighter at a seated position.

                Since light is not amplified by the screen, this means there is a trade-off. Off axis seating positions will see lower gain. For small angles off axis, it may still be higher than a 1 gain, but somewhere off axis, the brightness will drop below that of a unity gain screen and continue dropping out to 180 degrees.

                In a sense, higher gain screens can be better for ambient light. The ertroreflective type, since it directs light back at its source, will direct light incident from the sides preferentially back to the sides, while directing more of the PJ light back at the viewer. Net result is, although the incident brightness of the PJ and ambient light is the same, the proportions of this light reaching a centrally seated viewer will be skewed ni favor of the image, resulting in a lower amount of washout for the same amount of ambient.

                If your ambient source is directly behind you, the opposite would be true. In this case, a lower gain screen would fare better. Likewise, a nonretro-but still reflective screen would deal poorly with something like a skylight, but might do well with something like light from an adjacent room that hits the screen at a severe side angle.

                All of this is separate rom the grey vs. white screen debate. Some take the position that a grey screen, by darkening the levl of ambient erflection helps correct for it. However, since it does the same to the image in an equal proportion, the net effect on ambient washout is nothing, IMO.

                Another thing to remember is that it is extremely diffcult to get reaslistic imperssions of screens from samples, or sometimes even side by side comparisons. If you put up a high gain white screen and a low gain grey screen side by side with identical media/source/pjs, you will likely find that in bright scenes, the grey screen looks dull and less engaging, and in dark scenes, the black level of the white screen is distracting and unacceptable. This difficulty in comparison is worse using 1 square foot samples, IMO.

                This is a case where I think it makes much more sense to do sequential evaluation, all other things being kept = as possible. Hard to do, probably even more so in Canada than L.A. I know, but still worth it to the extent possible.

                My advice is to try some painted 4'x8' sheets of ply or foamcore to get a feel. Won't quite get you the image quality, but will let you evaluate how you feel about screen size, off-axis viewing, etc. for a relatively low investment in tmie and materials.

                BB

                Comment

                • Bam!
                  Super Senior Member
                  • Jan 2004
                  • 2458

                  #9
                  Brandon!


                  Thanks man that was really appreciated and yes I have gained knowledge about gain!

                  Good idea to try it on Ply or foamcore cause I am the type that once I settle in I start seeing the flaws and or things to upgrade...however this is for a friend...but FP is on the list for upgrades for me...Next house I will have a dedicated Ht room!




                  Bam!
                  Got a nice rack to show me ?

                  Comment

                  • Paul H
                    Senior Member
                    • Feb 2004
                    • 904

                    #10
                    For a test screen try this formula:

                    1 sheet mdf cut at the box store to 84.75" wide, height will be 49" - these dimensions will give a 16:9 ratio screen 94" diag after a 1.5" border is applied.
                    1 quart white paint with a single drop 1/48oz of black dye.
                    1 pint flat black paint.

                    Paint board white, put 1.5" black border around, hang on wall.

                    Cost maybe $50Can w/taxes.

                    This is the test screen I put up a couple of months ago and I'm glad I did - now I know that I want a 100-104" screen. If I'd gone ahead and bought a screen immediately I would have gotten a 92-94" screen.

                    Incidentally, the quality of the picture with my "mdf test screen" is good enough that I'm not in a rush to buy a proper screen.

                    Paul

                    Comment

                    • Lex
                      Moderator Emeritus
                      • Apr 2001
                      • 27461

                      #11
                      Paul, a big hug for you man! :B We appreciate you supporting our sponsors.

                      Brandon, I certainly respect your difference of opinion. Perhaps looking at an entire screen, I might feel differently. However, I do tend to think a less bright image can look more film like. just my take.

                      Bam, your just full of 1 liners. That gain thing, haha.

                      Lex
                      Doug
                      "I'm out there Jerry, and I'm loving every minute of it!" - Kramer

                      Comment

                      • Bam!
                        Super Senior Member
                        • Jan 2004
                        • 2458

                        #12
                        Hey el dude a rooneys!

                        Well I will make my buddy try the test...should I buy mat pearl or shiny....

                        I see I have 2 views here so I`ll have to see.... :LOL:

                        So for the paint question :?

                        Thanks !




                        Bam!
                        Got a nice rack to show me ?

                        Comment

                        • Paul H
                          Senior Member
                          • Feb 2004
                          • 904

                          #13
                          Bam,

                          The paint I used was Behr ultra pure white flat.

                          I hung the "screen" with a cleat. Take the leftover mdf from the sheet, and cut two strips 6 to 8" wide (exact width not important) and 49" long, with a 45degree bevel along one 49" edge for each piece.

                          Hang one piece on the wall, and fasten the other to the "screen" such that they interlock when the screen is hung on the wall. (side note - a picture really is worth a thousand words - let me know if this doesn't make sense and I'll try again). The cleat makes mounting easy and avoids any visible screw holes on the front of the screen.

                          Paul

                          Comment

                          • Dean McManis
                            Moderator Emeritus
                            • May 2003
                            • 762

                            #14
                            and just for a counterpoint, I prefer both gray, and high gain screens for digital projectors.

                            I have had a gray screen (very light) for a couple years and the whites look bright and solid to me. Unless you are holding up a piece of white paper to the screen for comparison, you can't really notice the difference in the whites, but you can visibly see better blacks.

                            As far as high gain, and higher contrast screens go, I think that they are very nice for rooms where you have some incedent light (either room lights) or outside light.

                            One of the big reasons that many people will choose a tube TV, Plasma display or RPTV is to still have a watchable picture with some incedent room light. And these kinds of screens work very well with digital projectors without showing color shifting and hotspotting problems that high gain screens have with CRT front projectors.

                            Still, if you mostly watch movies at night, or have a hybrid home theater (regular TV+ FPTV), or have full HT room light control, then a 1.0 gain (or gray screen) are good choices too.

                            -Dean.

                            Comment

                            • Bam!
                              Super Senior Member
                              • Jan 2004
                              • 2458

                              #15
                              Thanks for that Dean input there Dean!

                              I see things a lot clearer now...




                              Bam!
                              Got a nice rack to show me ?

                              Comment

                              • Andrew Pratt
                                Moderator Emeritus
                                • Aug 2000
                                • 16507

                                #16
                                Bam! instead of painting MDF which is very heavy simply buy some black out cloth from a fabric store and stretch that over a simple frame. Its a great material by itself for a pretty white 1 gain screen or you can paint it if you like. I painted mine with a silver mix and from the screen samples I have (most of the common screens) the only one I feel is better is the Stewart FireHawk. Silver is nice b/c it boosts over all black level like grey screens do but it also has nice whites...which is something most grey screens lack. If you're interested I can give you the silver mix that I used.




                                Comment

                                • Bam!
                                  Super Senior Member
                                  • Jan 2004
                                  • 2458

                                  #17
                                  ANDREW!

                                  :yesnod:

                                  Merci buckets!




                                  Bam!
                                  Got a nice rack to show me ?

                                  Comment

                                  • Paul H
                                    Senior Member
                                    • Feb 2004
                                    • 904

                                    #18
                                    Andrew,

                                    I'm interested in that silver paint mix - I might want to experiment someday soon.

                                    Thanks,

                                    Paul

                                    Comment

                                    • Andrew Pratt
                                      Moderator Emeritus
                                      • Aug 2000
                                      • 16507

                                      #19
                                      Ok Guys here's what I did. Its based on the DDog paint mix that was all the rage on AVS...

                                      1. Paint the screen with a pure white paint.

                                      2. Paint the screen with a top coat of the following mix.

                                      • 50% Behr Silver Metalic - available at home depot in the Behr faux pain section.
                                        40% Glaze
                                        10% Behr pure white



                                      As for tips what worked for me was to keep working a wet edge. By that I mean you don't need to apply a lot of paint with each pass so roll out the paint on your tray before applying it to the screen then keep rolling over the area you left off on and slowly work your way around the screen so that you are keeping a wet edge...doing that should allow you to avoid roller marks. Other then that take your time and it'll take a few coats to get a nice even finish. Basically painting pure silver is a pain in the arshe but adding the white really helps to make it easier. Spraying is likely best but it can be done with a roller if you take your time and the results are amazing. As I said the only screen sample I have that I think beats my DDog screen enough to consider buying is firehawk and unless I win the lottery that isn't going to happen




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