1080p Front Projector now under $3,000

[Chris D]

I just saw that they've released a new projector with an MSRP under $3,000. First one yet. Regardless of performance on this one, it's gotta be good news for the trend of the industry. Hopefully it's a good one, though.

NEWS REPORT HERE

[Dean McManis]

Wow, this 1080p price drop is happening even quicker than I expected.
1200 lumens, native 1080p, 12,000:1 contrast, $2999 suggested price.

It's of course still uncertain if the projector will match it's impressive specs in real life, but the price is definitely a new low point for 1080p projectors!
It will be interesting to see what the actual street prices are when it hits the stores.

I might be upgrading sooner than expected if this 1080p price dropping trend continues, especially with the projector's capabilities still improving across the board despite the new lower prices. :T

[sirbogey]

nice to see the prices come down, but wouldn't want an Epson in my living room :B

[Lex]

oh yeah, if you set the bar low, the other participants must follow suite and get in the game if they want to play, and of course, they do. :-)

2 years, 2K 1080p? Maybe less time than that.

[George Bellefontaine]

nice to see the prices come down, but wouldn't want an Epson in my living room :B

Why is that ? I have rarely read bad things about Epson. My Yamaha LPX510 lcd is basically a hyped up Epson and uses the Epson light engine and lcd panels and it is a fantastic projector, though contrast is nowhere near today's bunch of newbies.

[Brandon B]

It's of course still uncertain if the projector will match it's impressive specs in real life, but the price is definitely a new low point for 1080p projectors!

It will be interesting to see what the actual street prices are when it hits the stores.

On the upside, Epson is one of the more honest about specs. On the downside, their dealer network bites and prices are rarely discounted much.

Piques my interest though. Be interesting to see if it has a CMS. If so, JVC will have some firmware to upgrade. I am assuming that the 12K:1 contrast is real, not through dynamic iris. It very well could be given teh new C2Fine panels capabilities.

BB

[George Bellefontaine]

On the downside, their dealer network bites and prices are rarely discounted much.

BB

True and that's why I find it surprising for them to come out with a 1080p priced under $3K. Their Pro model sells for $2K more and when you compare the specs there seems little difference other than the color of the case. But I expect there are extra features in the Pro model that installers like such as the ability to tweak colors.

[Brandon B]

Did some reading up on this. It does use a dynamic iris, and furthermore, very likely is substantially the same machine as the Pro model. That version sells for $3K in Japan and other countries, and some surmise they introduced this model to stem the tide of people buying from Japan importers to beat the $2K markup.

Still, from what I know of their projectors professionally, I like them. Always good, solid, well-engineered machines, with good cooling systems, that do well over the long term. If the price and performance points of this unit fit the bill for someone, I would say it's a good choice.

BB

[audioqueso]

Well, I know what I'll be buying next Black Friday. :B

[spyboy]

Hi guys, I don't know a lot about FPs. Is the dynamic iris a real issue? How would this projector compare to a DLP 1080P FP?

Thanks in Advance

[aud19]

Good news

[Brandon B]

Dynamic iris is not an issue, it's just a bit of a compromise to boost performance.

In aprojector with no iris or a static iris or even an adjustable (but not dynamic) iris, the projector has a native on : off contrast ratio, let's say a modern 4000:1 for our example.

This means the projector showing a white field at maximum brightness, followed by a field of full black, the ratio of the amount of light striking the screen in those scenes will be 4000 times as much. So say 20 Foot-lamberts for the white and .005 Foot- lamberts for black. Some projectors, like Sharp's nice DLPs, have an adjustable iris where you can trade brightness for contrast, so in wide open setting, maybe you get the 20 FtL and 4000:1, but if you constrict it down, you get 6500:1, but only 12 peak Ft-L. So your black level would be greatly reduced to .0018 Ft-L

A dynamic iris is a motorized device that actually varies on a nearly frame-to-frame basis, so where a scene is mostly very low dark imagery, the iris is closed down and your black level (and all other levels including white) are reduced. During a bright scene with little dark material, the iris is wide open to allow maximu brightness. THe example projector above would then have a peak brightness of 20 Ft-L, and a lowest black level of .0018 Ft-L. This gives it an "on : off" contrast of over 11,000:1, similar to the epson being discussed.

So what is the tradeoff? Two possible tradeoffs. Since the iris is actually varying your white levels along with black levels, in dark scenes, small bright objects (small enough that the iris processing algorithms still consider it a "dark" scene) will be correspondingly dimmer as well. Likewise, in bright scenes, dark objects will be brighter than that same object would look in a dark overall scene. People are referring to the former as "brightness compression". The latter is just loss of shadow detail. These differences will be very plain when side by side with a projector with a true native 11,000:1 contrast, but the dynamic iris unit would certainly look better than the same projector with the iris function turned off.

The other tradeoff is under some conditions, moreso with some mfr's implementation of this system than others, you can actually detect the iris changing. The mitsubishi supposedly has this issue.

The projector has to process the video signal to compensate for this constantly varying iris, which is a rather tricky set of compromises to program, so probably these systems will improve on the latter issue as time goes by.

The new JVC is hitting 15,000: native (no iris) which is what has many people excited by it, as the Sony competitor only does 1/3 of that with its iris turned off. The best DLPs currently for sale only do half what the JVC does at best. On the other hand, they have more than double the ANSI contrast (within a single frame).

BB

[George Bellefontaine]

All good points, Brandon. My two projectors have a manual iris which I like because as the lamp ages you can openup the iris for more light. I think a dynamic iris would drive me nuts.

[Chris D]

New review out on this projector today.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/epson_cinema_1080.htm

This one looks like a canidate for my next projector and upgrade to 1080p!

[Chris D]

Oh, and I thought it was interesting that this one is HDMI 1.3 compliant.

[brendon]

On the upside, Epson is one of the more honest about specs. On the downside, their dealer network bites and prices are rarely discounted much.

Piques my interest though. Be interesting to see if it has a CMS. If so, JVC will have some firmware to upgrade. I am assuming that the 12K:1 contrast is real, not through dynamic iris. It very well could be given teh new C2Fine panels capabilities.

BB

I am sorry to hear that Epson's support and pricing are are not so hot in the USA.
Out here in Australia Epson with thier 720p pj's are very price competitive (rrp $2700 AUD, actual street $2050. 1AUD =.8 USD .Sanyo Z5 about $2400 AUD street) and their service is first class.
We have a lot of very unhappy Panasonic AE100 owners getting the run around locally some of whom are swapping to the Epson TW700.
Brendon

[Brandon B]

Don't get me wrong, I think their prices are reasonable and I don't think they offer poor service or support, you just literally cannot find a dealer to buy from in the first place. I think there is one dealer in the entire greater Los Angles area. By comparison, almost any other projector manufacturer will have several to dozens.

BB

[Chris D]

Can you not get something from www.ProjectorPeople.com? I've had good experiences with them, and I thought they carried everything.

[draganm]

I wasn't going to reply here since i know how much Brandon loves it when I "fart" in his threads but I have to point out that the title is mis-leading. It implies that until Epson released their 1080P LCD with phony 12K:1 CR and horrible DI you could not do 1080P for $3000. This is just not true, a Re-furbished 1080P capable CRT projector with warranty has been available for less than that amount for quite some time now.
I don't want tp get into another CRT vs. DLP-LCD debate but I thought it was a disservice to people to think an LCD is the only way to get 1080P. CRT projectors have been running that resolution and much higher for over a decade now as required by the military and NASA for high rez. flight simulator displays.

[Chris D]

No worries. Since I'm the one that started this thread, the purpose here was to inform people that for the first time, a digital 1080p front projector has been produced with an MSRP under $3,000. Street prices of products (much less new vs. refurbished) is another story.

[draganm]

oops sorry, got the little green happy guy and Mickey Mouse mixed up. :lol: I think the Epson is a fine choice for the un-washed masses but it's not much cheaper than the far superior JVC RS1, they will have to cut the $3K by 30% to really capture a share of the market.

[George Bellefontaine]

Actually, I think the Epson will do fairly well with the not-so-fussy types out there who just want an affordable 1080p lcd projector.

[Brandon B]

I wasn't going to reply here since i know how much Brandon loves it when I "fart" in his threads

Actually, I agree, the thread title is incorrect and you have been able to do this with CRT for some time.

That aside, though, piss off.

BB

[Dean McManis]

I wasn't going to reply here since i know how much Brandon loves it when I "fart" in his threads but I have to point out that the title is mis-leading. It implies that until Epson released their 1080P LCD with phony 12K:1 CR and horrible DI you could not do 1080P for $3000. This is just not true, a Re-furbished 1080P capable CRT projector with warranty has been available for less than that amount for quite some time now.
I don't want tp get into another CRT vs. DLP-LCD debate but I thought it was a disservice to people to think an LCD is the only way to get 1080P. CRT projectors have been running that resolution and much higher for over a decade now as required by the military and NASA for high rez. flight simulator displays.

Of course that's another misnomer.
Which is basically comparing a 20 year old rebuilt Mercedes with a new V6 Honda Accord. The Mercedes was (and is) an impressive older car, if you are willing to take extra care of it, and hope that nothing ever breaks.
But there are MANY big reasons why a formerly $25,000+ CRT projector can be found for $3000 these days.
And as usual I'd bet that the actual resolvable resolution of a used, uncalibrated, CRT FPTV in the hands of an average user will be nowhere near 1080p, in fact XGA resolution would be tough to fully resolve considering 50% of the CRT displays that I've seen left in most people's homes are generally misconverged, and not professionally color calibrated. Not to mention superior scaler issues or the brightness and uniformity advantages of even an entry-level 1080p projector like the new Epson. 8)

[sirbogey]

Why is that ? I have rarely read bad things about Epson. My Yamaha LPX510 lcd is basically a hyped up Epson and uses the Epson light engine and lcd panels and it is a fantastic projector, though contrast is nowhere near today's bunch of newbies.

I guess, 'cause it reminds me too much about my first Epson printer in 1984 :B .
I guess I'm very old fashioned...

[George Bellefontaine]

I guess, 'cause it reminds me too much about my first Epson printer in 1984 :B .
I guess I'm very old fashioned...

Okay. I got ya. :P

[draganm]

Actually, I agree, the thread title is incorrect and you have been able to do this with CRT for some time.
That aside, though, piss off.
BB

for someone with Mickey in their Avatar you sure have a rotten little temper.May I suggest Donald Duck as a more appropriate choice. :B

Of course that's another misnomer.
Which is basically comparing a 20 year old rebuilt Mercedes with a new V6 Honda Accord. The Mercedes was (and is) an impressive older car, if you are willing to take extra care of it, and hope that nothing ever breaks.
But there are MANY big reasons why a formerly $25,000+ CRT projector can be found for $3000 these days.
And as usual I'd bet that the actual resolvable resolution of a used, uncalibrated, CRT FPTV in the hands of an average user will be nowhere near 1080p, in fact XGA resolution would be tough to fully resolve considering 50% of the CRT displays that I've seen left in most people's homes are generally misconverged, and not professionally color calibrated. Not to mention superior scaler issues or the brightness and uniformity advantages of even an entry-level 1080p projector like the new Epson. 8)

as usuall Dean, there are so many things that are completely incorrect and untrue in your statement it would take 4 paragraphs of typing to straighen it all out. I'm bored with that, so i'm note even going to bother.

[JonMarsh]

Of course that's another misnomer.
Which is basically comparing a 20 year old rebuilt Mercedes with a new V6 Honda Accord. The Mercedes was (and is) an impressive older car, if you are willing to take extra care of it, and hope that nothing ever breaks.
But there are MANY big reasons why a formerly $25,000+ CRT projector can be found for $3000 these days.
And as usual I'd bet that the actual resolvable resolution of a used, uncalibrated, CRT FPTV in the hands of an average user will be nowhere near 1080p, in fact XGA resolution would be tough to fully resolve considering 50% of the CRT displays that I've seen left in most people's homes are generally misconverged, and not professionally color calibrated. Not to mention superior scaler issues or the brightness and uniformity advantages of even an entry-level 1080p projector like the new Epson. 8)

OK, now, I know everyone here (except me) seems to like to pick on draganm a bit, BUT,

You know the old saying about generalizations...

No generalization is worth a damn, including this one. :B


I've certainly seen a lot of CRT projectors in the condition you describe, Dean...

OTOH, I've calibrated ThomasW's XG NEC to a very, very sharp picture... doesn't give away hardly anything in resolution to the 1080P flat panel in my bedroom. (BTW< my reference display for photography and video foolishness is a 2560X1600, so I am fairly used to high res and not all that blown away by HD).

OTOH, that 1080P flat panel display only has on/off CR a bit over 1000:1 (about 1100:1 by my tests), pretty much as the magazines have tested it.

The Epson 1080P project is in the same league from what I've read so far with dynamic iris off- and since I haven't seen the dynamic Iris FP's in action, it's not something I can comment on. I tend to be more impressed with the reported performance of the JVC RS1.

REGARDLESS -

I bet this is by far the nicest projector Epson has ever made under 5K.

I still haven't seen a digital that matches the on screen color reproduction of my 9PG+ or 10PG. And the 9PG+ does a very credible job with 1080i material, though not in the league of the 10PG.

STILL, for the majority of people, developing the expertise to do the mechanical and electrical setup for a CRT FPTV and do a good job of it is just not in the cards- unless it's their day job or they're a long time electronics person of some persuasion. The convenience factor of getting most of the way their to a very acceptable picture (for them) with just a few button presses is too much to beat.

There will be a few of us retro guys hanging around for a while- but the Mercedes and Accord metaphor is somewhat apt- I've often likened my 10PG to picking up a top of the line older Mercedes or BMW for 1/8 the price with only 10,000 miles on the clock. (of course, that may be why I drive a 10 year old NSX I spent six months looking for instead of a new Accord V6 - cost about the same)

Not a bad deal at all, but not something you can walk into Best Buy or Magnolia HiFi and do. The Epson may take a bit more searching, too, but I'm sure there will be a lot of pleased owners- they've been in this business a long, long time- I can recall seeing Epson LCD projectors in high end shops in the mid 90's- they looked pretty awful compared to what I was watching then, but they've stuck with it. I'd go look at one for fun, except for the difficulty these days finding a B&M dealer.

Peace, everyone....


~Jon

[George Bellefontaine]

Well said, Jon, And peace to you, too on this Easter morn.

[draganm]

OK, now, I know everyone here (except me) seems to like to pick on draganm a bit, BUT,

it's OK, I like being the underdog and have thick skin. IT's part of my nature and heritage,a history of lost causes dating back 600 years to the Ottoman empire

STILL, for the majority of people, developing the expertise to do the mechanical and electrical setup for a CRT FPTV and do a good job of it is just not in the cards- unless it's their day job or they're a long time electronics person of some persuasion. The convenience factor of getting most of the way their to a very acceptable picture (for them) with just a few button presses is too much to beat.

True, no CRT can be set-up with a few button pushes, least of all an NEC. Barco and Electrohome however are pretty easy with the built in on screen guide. Most newbs can get a fully resolved 720P projected in a few hours.

There will be a few of us retro guys hanging around for a while- but the Mercedes and Accord metaphor is somewhat apt- I've often likened my 10PG to picking up a top of the line older Mercedes or BMW for 1/8 the price with only 10,000 miles on the clock. (of course, that may be why I drive a 10 year old NSX I spent six months looking for instead of a new Accord V6 - cost about the same)

there's still new people jumping into CRT every day. They post on curt's forum or AVS all the time. 40% are guys who had an old Zenith on the ceiling for 10 years and are looking to keep that reliability while adding HDTV or HD-DVD capability. 40% are former DLP/LCD guys who got tired of bulbs or up-grading every year, 5% are the hard core with stacks or blends on really huge screens and mutliple machines, the remaining 15% are college kids with $200. to spend. There is a CRT for everyone :B

The Epson may take a bit more searching, too, but I'm sure there will be a lot of pleased owners- they've been in this business a long, long time- I can recall seeing Epson LCD projectors in high end shops in the mid 90's- they looked pretty awful compared to what I was watching then, but they've stuck with it. I'd go look at one for fun, except for the difficulty these days finding a B&M dealer.
Peace, everyone....
~Jon

I just checked and street on the sony Pearl is $3023. As much as I loathe sony products and think Ruby/Pearl are seriously flawed products I would choose the Pearl over an Epson.

[Chris D]

$3023 street price for a Pearl? Wow, lookin' good. Going back to my original premise of this thread, I'd say it's good for all of us if the technology continues, and prices keep dropping.

[draganm]

yeah I like how I brought the thread back full circle to the original topic. Working it like a real veteran poster, Kachunka! kachunka! :B

[Dean McManis]

$3023 street price for a Pearl? Wow, lookin' good. Going back to my original premise of this thread, I'd say it's good for all of us if the technology continues, and prices keep dropping.

Even though I cannot vouch for the seller, I've seen the Mitsubishi HC5000BL 1080p projector for sale at under $2700. Which is pretty amazing. :T
I'm still waiting for an even lower price and more advanced features until I'm ready to upgrade this time. But this is definitely encouraging. 8)