JVC RS1 big dissapointment?

[draganm]

Has anyone been reading the first reports back on this unit, sounds like a lot of terminal prblems with it? Here's one post I read.

Ok, at this point I am the first "less than ecstatic" RS-1 owner.

1. The lumens output is my biggest gripe. I have a $5k anamorphic lens and 139" 2.35:1 screen on order that I will probably never get to use because the lumens are simply to low to be of much use for more than a few weeks....

2. The MC is not all that bad, but it is worse than my Ruby....

3. Color uniformity is not all that good....

Is it better than my Ruby? Yes, but not by a heck of a lot...

The colors look more natural to me on my well calibrated Ruby...

So despite my complaints, I think the RS-1 has a lot of potential, though I also think I got stuck with a lemon. Oh well, you can't win them all...

...right now I feel that my money would have been better spent just buying a new lamp for my Ruby.

[Brandon B]

Dragan or troll?

Seriously, I have been reading almost all the RS1 threads "over there", and you picked Bob as an example, who is easily the most disappointed of the very few people who are disappointed at all, and with pretty good reasons, that do not apply to anyone else.

Why don't you do a quick tally of the dozen or so owners who are already posting, along with the guys ike Greg R who have reviewed production units, and then get back to us with something resembling an objective claim to this projector being a disappointment.

If you're just trying to have a little fun stirring up our admittedly lazy FP forum here, well, OK then.

I should have one of these sometime in the next few months and will do an an attempt at an objective review. I've got one friend with a CRT setup to compare to, but he does only have lowly 7" tubes, so it won't be a strong contender in the resolution and brightness areas, but color and BL should be a fair competition.

BB

[George Bellefontaine]

Brandon, I look forward to that review. I find it hard to believe that the JVC is all bad. Owners were pretty high on their previous models.

[draganm]

Dragan or troll?
Seriously, I have been reading almost all the RS1 threads "over there", and you picked Bob as an example, who is easily the most disappointed of the very few people who are disappointed at all, and with pretty good reasons, that do not apply to anyone else.Why don't you do a quick tally of the dozen or so owners who are already posting, along with the guys ike Greg R who have reviewed production units, and then get back to us with something resembling an objective claim to this projector being a disappointment.

I could quote others but what is their frame of reference. If they just upgraded from a 720DLP with 2K:1 CR then It's not really relevant to the RS1's claim to be the next King of the Hill. The RS1 was "supposed" to de-throne the Rudy which is what Bob was running prior. Looks like that might not happen just yet.

I should have one of these sometime in the next few months and will do an an attempt at an objective review. I've got one friend with a CRT setup to compare to, but he does only have lowly 7" tubes, so it won't be a strong contender in the resolution and brightness areas, but color and BL should be a fair competition.
BB

Are you sure? Used Ruby's with 500 hours are seling for $4.5K, maybe that's a better buy.

[Brandon B]

I am sure. You really need to reread the threads over at AVS if you think most of the owners are disappointed.

Even Bob said it is better than the Ruby, in the quote you posted:

Is it better than my Ruby? Yes, but not by a heck of a lot...

I think just maybe you were excited that bulb burning digitals were getting close to allowing you to say goodbye to your 3 eyed behemoth, and are feeling let down by the inevitable hype-deflation of the next great thing when it turned out as always to not be absolutely flawless.

Most of the owners posting there have stated what PJ they were coming from. Of note, one or more had Sharp 20Ks and really nice Marantz units at well more than double the price, and are giving the JVC equal marks in sharpness to single chip high end DLP.

But I am not going to go back and forth with you on this, as I suspect you probably know its a decent projector, and a really good value, and are just enjoying stimulating the discussion. And since I have not actually seen the product in person (going to try and set up a demo at work with JVC in the next month or two, we love black blacks, and can't use CRTs in our applications), I should not be taking too firm of a position.

And you don't necessarily know what I would pay for mine.

BB

[Chris D]

Interesting, I just got Projector Central's review of the RS1.

http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_dla-rs1.htm

Just another opinion out there, good or bad. This is still out of my price range, but give it 6-12 months, and who knows where it'd be at.

[draganm]

I think just maybe you were excited that bulb burning digitals were getting close to allowing you to say goodbye to your 3 eyed behemoth, and are feeling let down by the inevitable hype-deflation of the next great thing when it turned out as always to not be absolutely flawless. Most of the owners posting there have stated what PJ they were coming from. Of note, one or more had Sharp 20Ks and really nice Marantz units at well more than double the price, and are giving the JVC equal marks in sharpness to single chip high end DLP.

I have trouble keeping track of all the comparisons to last months super-duper whiz-bang digital projector. The only comparison i've read so far that sticks in my mind was to a Barco 1209s CRT projector. In that person words the RS1 wasn't even close, 1209 kicked it's ass in every way except for sharpness of desk-top Icons.
So I think my much loved Marquee will be staying put. AAMOF, I suspect I will eventually be installing a new set of Pannasonic tubes long before a bulb-burner will comes along and matches it's Pic quality.

[Dean McManis]

I remember when laserdisc player owners were commenting that DVDs looked like crap compared to LDs, and (like records) their analog distortion was always better than digital distortion. And of course they offered a tiny handful of examples of poor quality DVDs, and similar opinions from other LD owners to back up their assertions.

But as time has clearly revealed, those comments were colored by owners clinging to their favorite technology.

If you look hard enough (especially soliciting comments from people who already share your bias for CRT displays) you will continue to find the minority reports of the few remaining die-hard fans, as opposed to seeing the quality benefits that the fast developing new digital projector technologies are bringing, along with their undesputable size, weight, convenience, noise, maintenance, and brightness advantages over CRT projectors.

It's been many years now that digital FPTVs have been notably superior to CRT FPTVs for MY needs and preferences. You may never make the leap to digital regardless of how good the picture quality gets. But that's just fine, and your choice.

I'm am also currently staying with my 720P DLP FPTV for a while, waiting for there to be a big enough improvement (and drop in price) in 1080p FPTVs to warrant the inevitable upgrade.

Here is a different review of the JVC RS-1. :T

http://www.projectorcentral.com/jvc_dla-rs1.htm

[Brandon B]

The only comparison i've read so far that sticks in my mind was to a Barco 1209s CRT projector. In that person words the RS1 wasn't even close, 1209 kicked it's ass in every way except for sharpness of desk-top Icons.

Right. Oh, and uniformity and ANSI contrast, and brightness, and several other areas where CRT is weak. No owner bias involved there I am sure.

BB

[draganm]

booorrrring, I can't believe you guys wanna re-hash the same old arguments. All I was saying is that the RS1 was supposed to be the big break-through. Delivering close to CRT like Contrast Ratio while also solving the problems of the Pearl / Ruby = Misconvergence, screen brightness uniformity, Auto Iris , etc.) Looks more like a small step in that direction as apposed to a large leap.
Oh well, I'm actually more than happy to wait another year, or 10, before adopting something as a replacement for my current PJ.

[Dean McManis]

The point is that you always mention the minority flaws as if they are uniformly representative of a bad design with digital FPTVs. They are not.
There are dud units in any technology, and most of the people who happen to come by the occasional flawed unit just return them and get a good one.
It's your biased assumptions and implications that bring up our old arguments.

[draganm]

oh sure, go ahead, blame me " it's all draganm's fault" :lol: The simple fact of the matter is the RS1 was supposed to make a big splash instead it's more of a belly-flop. It's not just 1 or 2 units, there is some consistent problems with color shift after only a few hundred hours. I mean did you guys miss this little gem you can't adjust D6500 on this thing.I mean that is F-ed up, although it will save you a bundle on ISF calibartions. OK, go ahead , find someway to blame that on me too. :lol: Keep in mind though that your only shooting the messenger
:a> draganm

[LEVESQUE]

I mean did you guys miss this little gem you can't adjust D6500 on this thing.

This is not true. I was able to bring mine to D65 with CalMAN and my Eye-One Pro easily. The "problem" you are talking about is not to adjust this projector to D65, but it's the color decoder that is not really adjustable and bring those overly saturated colors back on tracks (like the vast majority of digital projectors out there btw).

But with a little bit of work, even this can be calibrated.

And JVC in Europe are talking about releasing a software soon to use via the RS-232 port and perform a better and easier calibration, and maybe even color correction. So it will soon be a non-issue. There is a hidden service menu and discrete codes to access it.

And I just finished calibrating my friend's Sony G90, and I really prefer the JVC. :B

[George Bellefontaine]

Keep in mind though that your only shooting the messenger
:a> draganm

heh heh heh :twisted:

[Chris D]

And I just finished calibrating my friend's Sony G90, and I really prefer the JVC. :B

No doubt there, I'm sure! Well said.

[draganm]

And I just finished calibrating my friend's Sony G90, and I really prefer the JVC. :B

3 years ago you bought your first LCD projector and now you "calibarting" G90's? This is a funny joke, unless by some chance you actually got your hands on a G90 in which case it's a horror story.
What happened to your Ruby, last year you were saying it was perfect.

[LEVESQUE]

"By some chance"? I'm a reviewer for a AV magazine and can "get my hands" on almost everything I want to try. I receive a new projector almost every 2-3 months, and calibrating them fully each time before writing a review.

Horror story? One of my good friends has a G90 in a dedicated room, and I was able to play with it alot. We were able to use a Minolta CS-200 also to get more accurate results.

Unlike you, I'm able to appreciate every technology for what it's worth. The G90 is an awesome projector, and in many ways superior to every digital projectors I ever tried or calibrated. But just like the new JVC, it's not perfect. There is no perfect projector on the market. That doesn't exist.

But after playing with alot of CRTs and digitals in the last 3 years, I prefer digitals for the overall value. But I'm able to analyse them objectively, since I'm not stubborn like you.

Enjoy your CRT. It's an incredible value and a great projector. But if you had an open mind, you would see that digitals are doing alot of things better.

I won't go in that bumpy direction with you, but after playing with a G90 and the new JVC in the last month (unlike you, I was able to actually see both), to me, the JVC is a better machine, particularly for those things in picture quality that are more important to me (and maybe not to you). And I respect that.

I don't understand your tone in here. Why are you so overly protective about CRT projectors? It,s ok to like them. But it's also okay if other peoples prefer digitals. Both technologies are giving us great picture quality and because of both people are having alot of fun while watching movies. Why are you making all this a pissing contest?

[draganm]

well It all started when a was a child and my father wouldn't take me to the Circus. :B ...............Actually it all started with the Qualia, $30K projector that sony abandoned a year later. It all just looks like a big scam, every year there is a new projector and it's supposed to be really great and then it turns out to have a lot of problems (more than 1) and then next year your expected to shell out another $5K.
If you do in fact have in friend with a G90 then I was mistaken, it seemed like you were joking. One thing I am sure of, next year we will once again be comparing the newest bulb-burner to that G90 :T

[BlazeMaster]

are you serious, draganm? Your hatred of digital FPs started with the 30K price tag of Qualia? So, as the prices of digital FPs become lower and lower(from Ruby to Pearl), you hate them more and more? Don't quite see the logic in that, and the 'scam' of manufactures making new products for each year. That's what manufactures do, manufacture to make profits. It's ok that you don't have to buy a new car every year when the new model comes out, but don't go and tell people that new cars are just all 'scams' for people's money. Besides, it's their money, they can do whatever they want to do with it.

[LEVESQUE]

From Art Sonneborn on AVS.

This guy was able to compare 2 (yes, a stack) of Sony G90 with the new JVC RS-1. 2 G90s against 1 RS-1:

"I've seen the RS1 in my theater on my screen. There are some things the RS1 does better. It is sharper, although shading is an issue, full field uniformity is superior to my system. The RS1 ,likely due to the subtle resolution superiority ,has a look of greater detail in fine gradations of color in small details, although my high frequency chroma roll off of my Faroudja processor could be partially responsible( eg Kongs facial scars have several different colors within them not visible on my system).It does not appear to have as 3D an image as my set up top to bottom, it has much poorer low APL performance and has more color fringing due to panel errors compared to my well set up and converged CRTs.Overall I felt that the colors particularly reds were superior on my CRT( relatively orange looking on the RS1).It is a fantastric projector, however, and at least in my experience, I would choose it over a Ruby,Pearl,Qualia,or 11S1.

I therefore voted that it was on par with a 9" CRT but I personally would still choose a G90 over it as a preference but could easily understand the opposite position.

Art''

Draganm. He came to the exact conclusion I made in here. So I don't see why you want me to look like I don't know what I'm talking about. The RS-1 is doing some things that are important to me better, and the G90 is doing other things better that for Art are more important.

But unlike you, both me and Art have seen BOTH projectors for real. And he was comparing 2, a stack of G90s to the RS-1. Not 1 G90...

[Dean McManis]

Wow! That's actually very high praise indeed.

If Art put together a pair of calibrated, converged, G90s with a outboard Faroudja processor then we are talking about a setup that originally cost between $50,000 and $100K+ new for just the video components, depending on when he bought it. :E

And for him to admit that the quality of the $6K JVC RS-1 was relatively close to his stacked G90s, and that there were some elements (like clarity and uniformity) were superior on the RS-1 is of epic significance! 8)

CRT projectors like the Sony G90, Barco 1209, and Electrohome 9500LC were always the grail in terms of ultimate home projected image reproduction, and to have that standard met by relatively bargain priced digital FPTVs is great indeed.

For me, I want the same thing, but for under $2500 so I'll probably have to wait until next year. :T

[Brandon B]

Art's had his stack for a few years now, and it is calibrated pretty damn well. He's waiting for the digital that can handily beat them so he can up his screen size (which is at 12 or 14' now, can't remember exactly).

BB

[draganm]

Stacking has some disadvantages that Art was willing to accept years ago. Namely loss of sharpness and uniformity because you now have 6 tubes projecting one image. When Art put his stack up Stacking CRT's was the reference for big screen projection. That is no longer true, today blending with a Diventix is the way to go. Who cares anyway, sharpness has always been in the digital domain. It's not what makes a great pic.
Dollar for dollar The RS1 does sound like an excellent alternative to the Sony Pearl but I think it would be better to wait another year for the RS2 and let them work out some of the current problems. Oh and Brandon I seriously doubt a single RS1 will fill a 14' wide screen, Art's is 11' and I think the RS1 was at it's limit or a little below.

[Brandon B]

Yup. Not most screen materials at 14'. A couple of people have tried it with a highpower and found it acceptable (to them), but that's with a new lamp.

For me, the brightness is the one major downgrade I'd be suffering in going to the RS-1 from my 2200 (1600 calibrated) PLV70.

BB

[Dean McManis]

Picture clarity and uniformity are indeed two vital components of producing a quality projected image. Side by side CRT blending is a mixed bag as well (but better than CRT stacks).

I got a great looking picture (to my eyes) with a two different calibrated 500-750 lumens digital FPTVs shining on a 16:9, 13' wide, 0.85 gain, perforated, grayhawk screen, but I didn't have any direct light on the screen, and had total light control in my basement HT.

One of the chief benefits in digital projector's light uniformity is that you can use a higher gain, big screen without having hot spotting or color shifting problems that CRT FPTVs have with bigger high gain screens.

Going from a very bright projector like the PLV70 to a RS-1, especially projecting onto a bigger screen will be the loss of being able to get an strong picture with full room lights on. But in a black room most people's eyes compensate for the lower light and the image of the RS-1 should look great.

[Brandon B]

Yeah, talked to the friend who kicked me into the PLV70/highpower combo 5 years ago. He got an RS1 last week, and even he is happy.

BB

[Brandon B]

BTW, Bob's happy now. His original unit was defective:

Bingo!!

I finally got a picture that blew me away! Let me explain:

First of all, for those who don't know, my original unit was defective with an abnormal amount of MC combined with unusually low lumens and some cyanish blotches in the mid IREs. Jason and AVS have been wonderful in contacting JVC directly to get me a replacement ASAP.

So until the new unit arrived, I didn't see much reason to futz with the old unit. The new unit has MUCH better convergence (less than 1/2 pixel anywhere on the screen), higher lumens, and no cyanish splotches. So this weekend was the time to start with some serious measuring and tweaking.

The picture quality of a properly working unit was noticeably better, but as you can see from my measurements, there was still some work to be done. Well, once I started tweaking the Crystalio 2's saturation control, the colors appeared considerably more accurate, but equally (if not more) important was to tweak up the low gamma. Since the C2 has very extensive gamma controls, it was a simple matter of using the RS-1's gamma C and then tweaking the low output gamma a few notches on the C2.

Whoa, you won't believe the difference this made! Not only did it clean up the low level detail, but for some reason it also added a considerable amount of 3D punch to the picture in all APL scenes, not just the dark ones.

I am very happy to report that the combination of the RS-1 with the Crystalio 2 has now blown me away and provided that "wow" factor I was seeking. This combination easily presents the best image quality I have ever seen...PERIOD!

BB

[Steve Goff]

I've had my RS-1 for 10 or 11 days now, but was only able to hang it this weekend. My RS-1 is quite bright on my 100" diagonal screen, the Stewart ST130. In fact, it is bright enough that it sometimes causes me to squint when the picture gets bright, even in standard bulb mode. It is true that the RS-1 does not have blacks as black as a well-tuned CRT projector, but it has better blacks than any digital projector I've seen, and sufficient ansi contrast to make th picture pop in both low-light scenes and brighter scenes. In this regard, it does not have ansi contrast to match the current champs (the Sharp and Marantz 1080 projectors), so bright scenes look a bit flatter on the RS-1 than they look with the Sharp and Marantz. But dark scenes viewed on the RS-1 reveal more detail in the dark and more color. The projector is very sharp and detailed, and colors are glorious. It is true that the green primary is set outside the 709 standard, and this is my biggest problem with the projector. Only a color managment system can bring the primaries in to meet standards, and the RS-1 does not have such a color managment system, unlike the Sharp and some others. On most material the oversaturated green is not objectionable, but it is on some. A few outboard scalers have various controls that can tame the green, and one soon out, the Lumagen RadianceXD, will allow the user to move the primaries. (Of course, one can only move the primary in by mixing other colors. If the primary were undersaturated, a color managment system could not help.)

Over all, I am quite happy with the RS-1. It is easily the best projector I've seen under $10,000, including the Ruby and the Pearl, and rivals others that cost three times as much. It does not match the best projectors I've seen (some three chip 1080 DLP projectors that all sell for over $50,000), but in some ways it even betters those too.

By the way, this is the fourth projector I've owned, following in the footsteps of a Harman Kardon HD-1, an NEC XG85, and an Immersive Virtuoso (720p DLP).

[Chris D]

Awesome, Steve! Glad you got one!

[Steve Goff]

The Greg Rogers review is now available for subscribers (only) on the Widescreen Review website. Another great review by Greg, the best in the biz!

[LEVESQUE]

I'm playing with 2 JVC HD-1 (RS-1 clone) and I was able to do a perfect grayscale (dE 3 and less from 10-100 IRE) for both projectors with my i1 Pro and CalMAN software, and to do a custom gamma curve of 2.4 with my Anthem D2 (like Greg Rogers is talking about).

With the help of the color saturation and other controls in the Anthem D2 scaler, I was able to get my primaries back on track, except the green that is still a little bit oversaturated.

It's just sad that we need an external scaler to make those JVC performs like they should. But after all this tweaking, it's truly a revolution for digital projectors. I was able to measure a CR over 15000:1 (max throw, normal lamp setting). And it's plenty bright on my 110" dia screen.

Convergence is perfect all across the screen, even on the far sides, and the corners are only mildly brighter on a black field. White field uniformity is almost dead-on. Alot better then any CRT on the market.

I had 2 to play with since I'm calibrating one for a friend.

http://gallery.avsforum.com/data/501/DSC04522_copie.jpg