Why are the 16:9 PJ's always low lumen?

[ktaillon]

Are all the 16:9 PJ's only setup for a very dark room viewing? I like to watch movies in a darker room but some times I like a little light while I watch some car racing, this way I can see what I'm eating.

I noticed that the XGA units are very bright but I would like the 1280X720 format, I've been looking at the Sanyo Z2 which only has 800 lumen. I also had a chance to view a BENQ 7100 (only 800X600) which has a lumen of 1800 and a high contrast, this unit was very bright and viewable even with some lights on.

Will there be a big difference?

[Chris D]

Hmmm... I haven't been aware of an overall lumen difference between 16:9 and 4:3 projectors. It varies from model to model, of course, but I don't think it's specific to the native format.

[Dean McManis]

I'd say that it's likely because 4:3 projectors are used mostly for business presentations, often in lights-on room conditions. So high lumens ratings on 4:3 projectors are sought after for professional use. 8)

16:9 projectors are usually designed for home theater applications.
And some tradeoff is made between having higher lumens ratings, and having better contrast, black level, and color fidelity for HT use. :T

[Brandon B]

Always?

Sanyo PLV-70. 1366x768. 2200 lumens.

BB

[JonMarsh]

Are all the 16:9 PJ's only setup for a very dark room viewing? I like to watch movies in a darker room but some times I like a little light while I watch some car racing, this way I can see what I'm eating.

I noticed that the XGA units are very bright but I would like the 1280X720 format, I've been looking at the Sanyo Z2 which only has 800 lumen. I also had a chance to view a BENQ 7100 (only 800X600) which has a lumen of 1800 and a high contrast, this unit was very bright and viewable even with some lights on.

Will there be a big difference?

Part of the problem lies in the fact that the light spectra from the bulbs used in the majority of projectors are not very flat in spectral output. This means that generally there's an emphasis in the green range, and somewhat less, in the blue range. UHP bulbs tend ot have very weak output in the red region.

This is why there have been tweaks for a number of projectors, and some ship with these filters, based on red or magenta enhancing filters, which allow using the LCD panel in a more complete range of operation by pre-filtering the over emphasized green spectra.

High output 4:3 projectors for business use tend to have poor color reproduction.

No, let me re-phrase that- they have really, REALLY crappy color reproduction. The worst examples are the new crop of 2.5 lb mini DLP projectors- yellow is at best a light olive drab, and red is some weird purplish lookig color.

There's a reason the old JVC DILA projectors and the new Sony Qualia use Xenon lamps- uniformity of output spectra.

Even with these lamps, or those used in the newest JVC's, like the HX2, once you adjust for correct grey scale rendition and color accuracy at 100 IRE, the output level drops substantially.

Now, let's face it- a lot of folks don't give a rat's patootie about whether the gray scale tracks D6500 color temperature, or if the blacks are crushed, or if there's motion artifacts in low light scenes- otherwise, BestBuy and Circuit City wouldn't be able to sell most of what they have on display.

Now, as Brandon points out, there are some displays which have been designed more as light cannons, like the venerable PLV70. For the widescreen market, which usually pays more attention to color temp, purity, and contrast ratio, a high output light cannon is a little harder to sell, because the black levels just get that much worse. Triple the light output at 100 IRE, with a bigger bulb, and the light output at 1 IRE or 0 IRE rises correspondingly, unlike most CRT projects, which have on-off contrast ratios in excess of 20,000 to 1. Unless you really need the extra lumens for a larger screen and bigger venue, it becomes a losing proposition. You need to get rid of the heat generated by the bulb- gee, I haven't seen anyone complaining that their digital projector is too quiet- more like, how, except on the economy mode, they're too loud. There's a reason Sony went to a huge passive heatsink to help cool the bulb in the Qualia.

And regarding the two projectors you're comparing, the 7100 has been discontinued, and is replaced by the 7110, which is rated at 1800 lumens.
It uses a 5 segment color wheel, the type developed for business presentation work. It is designed for a high level of portability- just under 6 lb. No color temp specs in the standard brochure. I wouldn't buy one without seeing it, were I in your shoes. Bulb is supposed to be good for up to 2000 hours, replacement cost in Europe is about $600, may be less here.

If I were shopping for a good 4:3 digital projector, I'd be looking at the Canon SX-50; DILA, 1400X1050.


Just some things to think about...

[Lex]

Also, sometimes, the lumens can be deceptive. While it may only be 800, it can still have plenty of light for viewing with a lamp on, some daylight. I never have a complaint about brightness and I run a lamp 50% of the time, probably. OF course, I do run X10 dimmers on my lamps, so they are only at about 25-35% when on most of the time. But I can stlil brighten it up with little projector penalty. FYI, one of my PJ's is a Sanyo Z2 equivilent. I don't view it as much as my 4:3 ViewSonic, but I don't feel there is significant ambient light difference between the two.

Lex

[LEVESQUE]

unlike most CRT projects, which have on-off contrast ratios in excess of 20,000 to 1.

Here's a quote from William Phelps on AVS concerning the Sony G90 compared to the JVC HD2K:

"but there is no way you'll get 20,000:1 from ANY CRT projector.

Let's talk about the difference between 2500:1 and 8400:1, which are accurate measurements of real projectors. Take a 96" wide 1.3 gain screen, and assume 350 lumens for the CRT (G90 with pristine tubes) and 420 lumens for the HD2K (Optimized with CC filter). You'r talking about the difference between 0.001 foot lamberts and 0.006 foot lamberts. Put one tiny lamp in the room so it's not absolute black, so you don't trip and fall, and that difference is all but gone..."

A G90 fully calibrated was measured at 8400:1 by William. He did calibrate over a hundred G90s. You didn't. Theory against reality.

You said "unlike most CRT projects, which have on-off contrast ratios in excess of 20,000 to 1. ". :roll: Not true. And far from it.

[JonMarsh]

Well, other's besides William Phelps have measured CRT on/off ratios and seen ratio's like that- I didn't quote typical specs from Sony or NEC, which are 25000:1, or in some cases higher.

Let's just say for the record that even 8400:1 is quite a bit higher than the 1500:1 or 2000:1 that a lot of calibrated digitals muster. And in either case, if the room hasn't been designed for front projection, with appropriate neutral dark colors in additional to light control, measured contrast ratio performance would be hard to replicate. But the ability for the screen to go essentially black with a CRT remains... something I never saw with the digitals I've owned, or even a Qualia when demo'd in San Francisco. This is not to say they aren't very good projectors in other regards- to each their own.

But you're going off topic here a bit- the thread starter's concern was light lumen levels from available 16:9 digital projectors vs. 4:3, and why the discrepency.

I'm sure he would like your contributions to his topic, also, instead of picking nits with me.

~Jon

[Brandon B]

Levesque, you are not quoting William accurately (or at least not completely). He has said that a fully and properly calibrated (by his standards) CRT PJ will be in the just-short-of-10,000:1 range. Many people accept a bit of deviation from perfect calibration to boost that numer 2 or 3X. I believe the tradeoff was a bit of black crush.

William feels that is not an appropriate compromise though.

BB

[JonMarsh]

Actaully, I'm inclined to agree with William; what I've found is that to just be at the edge of being able to reproduce a blacker than black from display, you've got to give up a teeny bit on absolute black level. And I do like extracting the absolute most in shadow detail if possible.

Others prefer the absolute best in contrast, and will go with settings more like the way the sets actually ship, which usually is where they get that 20K to 1 range- but which sacrifices a small amount of black shadow detail. Looks great on those outerspace shots, IF the room is treated properly to keep actual screen contrast ratio high.

It's all about tradeoffs and personal preferences at some point, I suppose. Nothing is perfect yet... maybe another ten years?

~Jon

[Brandon B]

Waitin' for the shark projector with the frickin' laser beams on their heads.

BB

[Chris D]

Well, but then you have to make sure you get a 3-chip shark, with a 8 mega-fin resolution. Screendoor is always a factor with sharks (it lets all the water fall out!) and some people see rainbows when staring into the laser on the shark head.

[Brandon B]

Oh, and BTW, if you want probably the best brightest 16:9 PJ short of a D-cinema unit right now,this is unquestionably it. 6000 lumens, 1400X788.

We have been playing with the non-masked to 16:9 1400X1050 version, the 7700 at work. Nothing like a gorgeous HD image 25' wide. I need a raise.

BB

[George Bellefontaine]

Nice toy. I'd have to come out of retirement to afford that baby, and build a bigger house with a massive home theater. :B