My Natalie P Journey Continues

[wkhanna]

Santa makes an early delivery at Casa Curmudgeon today!

Two for me & two for Dan (PewterTA)

[JonMarsh]

Hmm, indulging in a bit of speaker porn again, are we? :W

[wkhanna]

Time for an update on the "Duded Up" Nat P.

First off, be aware this is NOT a pure 'drop-in' upgrade for those who already have made this speaker as the crossover requires modifications.
Secondly, The Maestro has graciously configured two schemes for this project, however I have some opinions relative to the available options.

This is not a budget-minded endeavor.
We are talking about $280 tweeters here.
Not constructing the slightly more sophisticated circuit The Maestro has developed with the Zobel network seems foolish.
So too, skimping on the quality of the crossover components would seem, as Ben F might state, somewhat 'penny wise' but 'pound foolish' after one has already crossed substantially beyond the threshold of a 'budget-minded' project.
Jantzen Superior Z, Jantzen Z-Standard & Mundorf M-Resist Supreme make up the BOM for this 'Duded-Up' project.

I don't have the disposable income to source all these components at once, but if I took a few shortcuts I could speed things up for sure.
And you know what, I did do that when I began construction of my Nat P's some eight years ago!
I went with budget crossover components, thinking I could always go back & upgrade later.
Besides, just how much better could all those fancy-ass thingies be?
For crying out loud, they have the same frick'n values!

Now, eight years & many many equipment upgrades later, I regret that decision over & over.
I am missing the better performing components every time music is produced by my speakers.
Do not get me wrong, I love my 'Twins' (as I call them).
They have held forth against many much more high-priced commercial offerings.
But I have learned in the long term, there is no value in rushing the completion of a speaker build by shaving a few percent off of the BOM.

Just some food for thought based on my personal experience for those who may feel the urge to pinch a few pennies during a build.

I will be placing my order for the xo components next week (thanks to a small xmas bonus The Wife is not aware of :W & still with a little left over for some small sparkly shiny things for her stocking).
Then, since I made no provision for accessing the crossovers in my cabinets, I will need to cut an access on the rear baffle.
Hopefully, I'll be finished in a couple weeks.


This is the original Nat P crossover:



This is a typical layout of that original crossover:





And a shot of my original xo's:




Next are the two syms purposed by The Maestro:

NatalieP Deluxe for Bill....

OK, making some progress this Saturday, my comp day yesterday got blown off by my boss, but today is wife his probably keeping him busy and at bay... :W


So, what we've got here is an updated schematic proposal for Bill, considering his plan to use the nice and spendy Scanspeak tweeter instead, which is about 4 dB more efficient. And some nice shiny new expensive caps in the crossover, too. Not being one to leave well enough alone, I also have dreamed up a more deluxe version, using a zobel network for the tweeter, which makes things a little more happy in the tweeter roll off. Sort of the OCD approach to a NatalieP, as if one really wanted an Ardent, but was settling because that dip Jonmarsh can't ever seem to finish the Ardent design, and besides, your wife wouldn't approve that much money for crossover parts!

So, first the "standard" upgrade, without the zobel network added:







Quite respectable performance for a budget setup (a few more things tweaked slightly in component values), but no way to fix that unsightly bump in the response of the tweeter that arises from it's Fs impedance peak around 500 Hz.


Next, the slightly higher priced spread:





Mmm,mmm, good!




And just for good measure, the usual sanity check with a reverse connection of the tweeter:



Nothing to complain about there...


well, you could probably build this just on my LspCAD sims and things SHOULD work out just fine, but if you're not in an all fired hurry, I should be able to get parts on hand in early October to build a test channel, (excepting the SS tweeter, which will be a slightly less sensitive version) and build and test this out by Halloween. Right now my discretionary budget for September is tied up in a couple of parts orders for the Isiris midrange re-build, and in a ludicrous amount of new gear to support the music server- as they say, I'm all tapped out! Can't even afford a new guitar this month, not one!!! :roll:

I will have a complete BOM with costs of the xo which includes the Zobel circuit posted up shortly.

[speedle]

Excellent! I concur totally, and will be taking this slow.

[speedle]

Excellent! I concur totally, and will be taking this slow.

Further, since there is no way to get to my crossovers either, and even cutting would be totally impractical, I'll need new top cabinets. Natalie P Maxx Series II here we go!

[wkhanna]

What size cabinets are you thinking about?

On a side note, I just thought of an option for my own 'Duded Up' xo.
I can simply run the speaker hook-up wire out thru the bottom port to an external xo.
Keeping the runs between the tweeters & woofers isolated is the only issue I can see with this plan.

[wkhanna]

A question for The Maestro.....

I have C4 & C10 spec'ed for Jantzen Superior Z caps.

The rest as Jantzen Z-Standard.

Should any others be upgraded to the Superior Z, like C12 in the Zobel?

Also, any advantage to using the Jantzen foil inductors, & gauge size recommendations for wire or foil?

(Edit: To clarify, this will be completely new ground-up build, no cannibalization of my original xo.)

I guess that is more than one question....ops:

[JonMarsh]

Will give you a full response tomorrow AM- we're headed out for the annual Messiah performance where GF is part of the choir.

This is fairly relevant for me to look at due to another system in planning.

[speedle]

What size cabinets are you thinking about?

On a side note, I just thought of an option for my own 'Duded Up' xo.
I can simply run the speaker hook-up wire out thru the bottom port to an external xo.
Keeping the runs between the tweeters & woofers isolated is the only issue I can see with this plan.

I'll need to replace the 1 cubic foot sealed ones that I built. I'm seriously considering going with the prefab black gloss ones from PE, and refinishing the bass bins to match. Kinda tired of the mahogany look anyway.

[wkhanna]

.... headed out for the annual Messiah performance where GF is part of the choir.........

Family first! No exceptions!

Hope you have an enjoyable evening together.



No rush on you response required, either.
Just one more step of many in my journey.:W

[BobEllis]

Bill, it's not just about family there. Jon's ulterior motive is getting to listen to live music as a reference.

[JonMarsh]

Bill, it's not just about family there. Jon's ulterior motive is getting to listen to live music as a reference.

Bingo! Give the MAN a CIGAR!

It's my annual Messiah live music refresh. Unfortunately, it was in a different locale this year, in the San Ramon community center, instead of the activity hall of a local church, and the acoustics were quite different- sounded like a lot longer reverb time in parts of the midrange, an not much support for the low end or top end- (the other room is extensively treated, and sounds quite good). So, it wasn't the experience I've enjoyed the last few years, but it was still pretty nice.

It's quite hard for reproduced music to have the upper midrange to high end combination of clarity and softness at the same time that live music like this has.

Maybe like hearing a 320KPS AAC dub of an SACD. With more muddle in the middle. Sigh...

[wkhanna]

Jon's ulterior motive is getting to listen to live music as a reference.

Yep, The Wife still thinks all our show tickets to the symphony & other musical events are 'gifts' for her :W

[JonMarsh]

Yep, The Wife still thinks all our show tickets to the symphony & other musical events are 'gifts' for her :W

Ooh, that's wicked clever!

BTW, now I have measured data for the 7100 in the 9" wide enclosure, I will plug that into the old crossover machine and see if any other updates are needed.

[wkhanna]

;x(
Bless you, Maestro.

Please be sure to take all the time required to share these holidays with family & friends.
Only the best to you, yours & all who venture here.

[wkhanna]

I'll need to replace the 1 cubic foot sealed ones that I built. I'm seriously considering going with the prefab black gloss ones from PE, and refinishing the bass bins to match. Kinda tired of the mahogany look anyway.

Are those the ones in your avatar?
My friend Dan is making a set of these too & already got the PE curved 1 cf cabs.
They are really V nice, especially for the price. :T

[speedle]

No, those are my Tarkus, in the Wilsonesque cabs. These are the Natalie P Maxx :





They seriously need a different cabinet.

[wkhanna]

Ahhhh!

A vintage junkie......

I knew their was reason I liked you :W

[speedle]

Ha! Well thank you. We've all got to start somewhere, and I enjoy a good mix of modern above average stuff and vintage.

[Wayman]

I wonder how one of these would work as a center?

Cheers, Wayne

[wkhanna]

I wonder how one of these would work as a center?

Cheers, Wayne

I can not remember if these were ever used as centers (positioned horizontally).
Maybe try a search; or someone who does remember can chime in?

[JonMarsh]

The design isn't really optimized for that purpose- it's a quasi LR3 network, which lowers the power handling requirement and results in less floor and ceiling bounce than a B3 would. If tuned to a B3 crossover alignment and laid down, it would have more horizontal dispersion. But I'd recommend using a smaller form factor tweeter (like the small SB, if cost is important) and push the woofers together, and offset the tweeter to the top (when laid down).

If you have a real interest in using one that way, I can explore that possibility in network design first. The B3 operates in phase quadrature, and with a single woofer and tweeter, has a lobe off the main listening axis. With an MTM, the lobes are symmetrical, which gives the wider dispersion in both directions. For a stand up speaker, that's not necessarily desirable.

[Rbrockman]

Nice to see the renewed interest in this thread. I built this design in Nov '13 and have been listening to them for over a year now, while continuing to upgrade source components. Looking forward to any suggested XO tweaks as my measurements between these and the ModulaMT's in the same position were a bit confusing.

[wkhanna]

Jon,

it pains me greatly to impinge on any of your time......ops:


.....but.....

.....i am ready to order xo parts for my 'Duded Up' Nat's implementing the ScanSpeak Revelator D2904/7100-03's

can you advise via the attached spreadsheet the value, type & brand of component you would make use for a "no holds barred" xo? ;x(

rather than modifying my existing xo, i am going for a ground-up, end-game build-from-scratch for my 'Dudes'

if you got to this anytime in the next month or two i would be endeared, indentured, ingratiated, indebted & in total adulation of your help...:W

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/jqq13zhksl86hnp/AAA_JHPHAjHxVRPrz3R8eK8Ta?dl=0

[JonMarsh]

Should be able to make this a nice evening project- I'll do my best to have it wrapped in two weeks. I'll also check sims with 71000 data first.

It's officially entered as a project in Chaos Control. (We don't have any mission control around here, it's the best I can do... :W

[wkhanna]

i am a BIG fan of chaos theory!

again, there is no obligation to a time frame
also, pay no mind to researching or providing data in the $ column :W

[JonMarsh]

i am a BIG fan of chaos theory!

again, there is no obligation to a time frame
also, pay no mind to researching or providing data in the $ column :W

Hmm, won the lottery, have we? :B

[wkhanna]

Hmm, won the lottery, have we? :B

actually, now that you ask, i started a new job a few months ago as a mechanical design assurance engineer at Blue Belt Technologies here in Pittsburgh.
hence a slight windfall in disposable (read: fun-money for the audio coffer) finances.

it is a V small hi-tech start-up that emerged from CMU's incubator program.
we design & manufacture a robotic-assisted surgical system that is used in orthopedic joint replacement.
the company was just bought by $mith & Nephew in January.

part of my responsibilities includes evaluating system reliability as i perform full procedures in the cadaver lab :E

another link to our product with some cool vids

[TEK]

actually, now that you ask, i started a new job a few months ago as a mechanical design assurance engineer at Blue Belt Technologies here in Pittsburgh.
hence a slight windfall in disposable (read: fun-money for the audio coffer) finances.

it is a V small hi-tech start-up that emerged from CMU's incubator program.
we design & manufacture a robotic-assisted surgical system that is used in orthopedic joint replacement.
the company was just bought by $mith & Nephew in January.

part of my responsibilities includes evaluating system reliability as i perform full procedures in the cadaver lab :E

another link to our product with some cool vids

thats so fuc..g cool man! You have got my dream job! I envy you BIG TIME!

[JonMarsh]

Hmm, orthopedic joint replacement with robotic surgery... sounds like something I'll need before too long, though as they say in Monty Python, "I'm not dead yet!"

Congratulations on the new position- do make the most of it, sounds like interesting possibilities!

[wkhanna]

- do make the most of it...

V good advice.
even in the midst of mass chaos, it is my singular priority.:W

[wkhanna]

.... as they say in Monty Python, "I'm not dead yet!"

Ha! neither is my parrot!

btw, will i get a chance to use some of those cool 8) ribbon inductors?

[JonMarsh]

Well, if you like the idea of using cool ribbon inductors, and would sleep better at night knowing that you have some, I'm sure we can arrange that...

OTOH, you might not want to read my analysis in MathCAD over whether the skin effect difference in AC resistance has any valuable effect in a cool ribbon inductor compared with an AWG14 wire inductor, becuase it might spoil your sense of satisfaction.

Remember, even though I buy and use expensive cables (because of how they sound and measure in my system), I still play an engineer on TV and measure and calculate stuff that way.... :W

I know.... What a contradiction... But it's actually not. Look at the difference in loop back inductance between Cardas Golden Reference speaker cables and 12 gauge zip cord.

[wkhanna]

this is exactly why i let the software & EE folks tell me what needs done, no questions asked.
i just stick to my mechanical exploits & let the pros do their thing.


LINK to Jon's article on Foil vs Wire

[JonMarsh]

7100's are in house, and pending completion of all Honey-Do tasks this weekend, will hopefully get tested Sunday afternoon- otherwise some evening next week. Then we'll integrate design data into the crossover design and prepare an update for you. I'll probably have to turn this over to ET, I'm pretty booked for time already, what what with all the electronics stuff. He's on a work release program from Coruscant, as his legal representative was able to prove that he had nothing to do with the establishment and operation of the First Order.

[Evil Twin]

It is long past time to cut out the middle man with regards to your project... I suggest you visit this thread, though we can continue specifics for you on this one, also.

https://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?43255-The-Force-Returns