Well folks, I am finally in CES country. Planning a visit to the B&W Group booth tomorrow. I should have something to post in the evening. Got a busy day ahead.
Classe' CES '08
Collapse
This topic is closed.
X
X
-
Aw c'mon!!! I've been waiting two days for some cool CES news (Pioneer's extreme contrast plasma and 9mm thick plasma are sweet) from Classe.
Off topic, did anyone see Levinson is releasing a new processor (the 502) that is HDMI 1.1, doesn't decode the high-rez surround formats, and costs $30k?! 8O What the hell is that all about? I'm assuming a firmware update will be coming for them, but holy smokes, it should have those right out of the box.- Bottom
Comment
-
Like Dan say’s I have some good news to report and some disappointing news as well.
After a 15 year hiatus the B&W Group has once again put a display booth on the CES floor. Unfortunately, all they are showcasing is B&W based products. The most popular attraction being the Jaguar demo followed by the Classe’ powered Liberty system. Therefore, there won’t be any photos of Classe’ only equipment to share. However, there are some other very surprising things to talk about. Pay close attention Minardi2.
Delta Series Updates
The SSP-800 is poised to be a killer product. Recent economic shifts within the high-end AV community has given Classe’ an opportunity to “seize the moment”. They are still on target to release the processor to manufacturing in March with product availability planned for April. However, they are nolonger prepared to offer it at the $10K - $12K price point. Instead they are shooting for an $8K price tag! That’s right $8000 dollars.
In the midst of all the recent price increases coming out of corporate, I never saw this coming nor would have I expected it. While no decisions have been made they are reviewing the prospects of a trade-up program, but don’t get your hopes up. Given the new price margin it may not be financial feasible but they are considering the possibilities.
The DSP will be an upgradeable MDS DAE-7 module which is based on the TI Aureus processor chip. Unlike other DAE kits all of the DSP support architecture and circuitry including power supplies, ADCs and DACs are engineered by Classe’. The DAE-7 will not support the decoding of the high-definition audio codecs like Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD and DTS-HD HRA and MA but it will support all the standard audio codecs and multi-channel LPCM. HDMI 1.3a is included as is support for Deep Color video.
Classe’s supplier of the DSP’s could not make a solid commitment to produce a high-definition compatible module in time for the SSP’s launch. Later when MDS makes an upgrade available that supports the new codecs Classe’ may offer it to their customer’s for no extra charge. Classe’ is “expecting” something later this year, perhaps in the fall sometime but it’s still up in the air.
Then again they may not offer the upgrade at all. There are a number of dependencies as to why. One such factor is due to the high-definition formats specification that all decoding take place on the player. Time will tell but the lack of SSP onboard decoding should not be viewed as a deal breaker for anyone. Sony and Toshiba designed it that way!
The SSP-800 will not include a self-calibrating parametric equalizer but will include manual equalization that will require third-part support. Classe’ evaluated the popular Audysse MultEQ and found that its inconsistent results made it an inadequate option to include in the next generation processor. Therefore, room correction features are accessible but geared to those that are less timid and well initiated.
Two-channel and multi-channel audio performance is claimed to be the best to date to come out of Classe’s development programs.
There are still a few SSP questions that I hope to have an answer for soon so stay tuned. There will be more to come later regarding high-definition players, and the future development of the Delta and Omega Series lines as well. I'm just too tired to report it all at this time. Sorry."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Minardi2Aw c'mon!!! I've been waiting two days for some cool CES news (Pioneer's extreme contrast plasma and 9mm thick plasma are sweet) from Classe.
Off topic, did anyone see Levinson is releasing a new processor (the 502) that is HDMI 1.1, doesn't decode the high-rez surround formats, and costs $30k?! 8O What the hell is that all about? I'm assuming a firmware update will be coming for them, but holy smokes, it should have those right out of the box."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Bummer news RebelMan
I don't agree that the lack of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding isn't a deal breaker. The hi-rez DVD players are (mostly) all going to HDMI 1.3 and will pass those formats via an HDMI connection. For Classe not to include it initially on the 800 is puzzling to me.
And where does it say that the decoding has to happen in the player? I don't believe any player available today is doing that.
Great news on the price if it turns out to be true, but overall this is disappointing information. But Rebel, thanks again for taking the time to get this and post it here. I'm not shooting the messenger, just the message.- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by AldoWhen I upgrade my processor it should have HDMI 1.3 and decode hi-rez formats!
The new Yamaha receiver can do it, so I do not know why Classe, Halcro, Levinson etc can't!- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by sikonikoIs it really that important? The players do it internally. Why does anyone care where it is done? Just to say you can do it?
RebelMan,
Thanks for the coverage.
P.S. was there any Rotel news?- Bottom
Comment
-
bass management would be the same, ie - through the proc. it would be going through HDMI, which is digital, not the 7.1 analog inputs.
Originally posted by Mark-n-bWhat SSP settings will be available using the LPCM signal? I take it that bass management, speaker equalisation etc will be available using this signal, just as if it were any other signal? If that is the case, then it’s not the end of the world, but I do think that Classe should confirm an upgrade path for those that buy the SSP, even if customers have to pay for it.
RebelMan,
Thanks for the coverage.
P.S. was there any Rotel news?I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...- Bottom
Comment
-
RebelMan, thank you for the update. You did not mention anything about the processor's upscaling/switching capabilites? How many HDMI inputs, etc. Do you have any information on that. Overall a quite positive message but somewhat disappointing given the time it has taken to get a processor to market with HDMI inputs. It does amazes me that it still falls short of what the market requires. Unfortunately, those who are Classe fans such as myself and have waited patiently for a processor that will be the last processor for some time have been left wanting. So, as I am someone who puts music fidelity over features, I will stick with what I know works and figure out some acceptable work around for HT. Please keep the news coming.
skz- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by sikonikoIs it really that important? The players do it internally. Why does anyone care where it is done? Just to say you can do it?
If I'm wrong, please clue me in.- Bottom
Comment
-
All HD and Blue-ray players decode the signal and make it available as either analog outputs or if available as multi-channel PCM (at high sample rate) via an HDMI interface. This is similar if not identical to DVD-A’s.
There is a specification for transporting an encoded bit-stream over HDMI and this may or may not be supported by some players if the media allows it.- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Minardi2I don't agree that the lack of Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio decoding isn't a deal breaker. The hi-rez DVD players are (mostly) all going to HDMI 1.3 and will pass those formats via an HDMI connection. For Classe not to include it initially on the 800 is puzzling to me.
And where does it say that the decoding has to happen in the player? I don't believe any player available today is doing that.
How is it puzzling to you? Personally I would rather not wait another 6 months for an high-end definition processor. First you complain that it is taking too long now you complain that it is not a complete package and yet there are no other class competing options currently available. I don't understand your rational.
Great news on the price if it turns out to be true, but overall this is disappointing information. But Rebel, thanks again for taking the time to get this and post it here. I'm not shooting the messenger, just the message."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by AldoWhen I upgrade my processor it should have HDMI 1.3 and decode hi-rez formats!
The new Yamaha receiver can do it, so I do not know why Classe, Halcro, Levinson etc can't!
The marketing FORCE appears to have a powerful influence over the weak minded. :roll:"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mark-n-bWhat SSP settings will be available using the LPCM signal? I take it that bass management, speaker equalisation etc will be available using this signal, just as if it were any other signal? If that is the case, then it’s not the end of the world, but I do think that Classe should confirm an upgrade path for those that buy the SSP, even if customers have to pay for it.
RebelMan,
Thanks for the coverage.
P.S. was there any Rotel news?
Classe' intends to make it known at the time of product release whether an upgrade will be forthcoming, which is highly likely that it will. But if the opportunity for upgrading fails to materialize then you as an SSP-800 owner will not incur any losses in system performance, just a little in flexibility.
Rotel's presence at the show was equally scare as Classe' and I didn't make any formal inquires."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by skuzzybRebelMan, thank you for the update. You did not mention anything about the processor's upscaling/switching capabilites? How many HDMI inputs, etc. Do you have any information on that. Overall a quite positive message but somewhat disappointing given the time it has taken to get a processor to market with HDMI inputs. It does amazes me that it still falls short of what the market requires. Unfortunately, those who are Classe fans such as myself and have waited patiently for a processor that will be the last processor for some time have been left wanting. So, as I am someone who puts music fidelity over features, I will stick with what I know works and figure out some acceptable work around for HT. Please keep the news coming."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by RebelManTwo inputs and four outputs will be available. The SSP-800 is all the HT solution you will need, now and later. :W
1 - Cable
2 - BD (PS3)
3 - HDDVD
4 - XBOX
I feel there needs to be another one for nintendo if they go hdmi in the future. I know your comment will be something like, you won't need hddvd much longer, but the simple fact is, my movies arent going anywhere anytime soon.
btw, are they reducing all of those stereo inputs on the back? I only use 1 in my system (for the wii).I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...- Bottom
Comment
-
RebelMan -
Have I stated at some point in time that it was taking too long for Classe to get this product to market? I don't recall that I did, but if you can direct me to a posting of mine where I did, I'll throw myself on the sword. I do remember saying that I'm not in a big hurry to get a new processor because I won't be getting a high-def DVD player anytime soon.
The fact that this unit is incomplete and that there are no other competitors at this price point is irrelevant. Those are two different issues. If Classe makes an upgrade available at some point, then great, it would eventually become a moot point.
No one has replied to my post (#14) as to how the hi-rez decoding is done. If the player MUST do it, as you stated, what does that mean exactly? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really want to know.
I've done a quick search for a white paper but haven't found anything pertinent. If someone has a link, could you please post it? Thanks.- Bottom
Comment
-
Minardi2,
What it comes down to is seeing a light and an extra label on your processor to do the decoding on the proc itself.
When watching a movie, it does not matter where the processing is done. It will be the same result, whether it is done on the source player or the processor. The issue is how PiP works on HDDVD/BD players. In order to get them to work properly, the source player MUST decode both layers BEFORE sending the information to the processor.
Therefore, it is really a moot point whether the processor does the decoding. The result will be the same.
Rebel,
You mentioned something about the Omega line, are they going to continue updating it? I had been under the impression that they were not.I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by RebelMan...To FULLY comply with the specifications decoding MUST be done in the player...
This, in my opinion, is a good idea, because you only pay for the decoding chips once (in the SSP) and not one for each player.
Thanks again for the coverage and the info that you provide. I (we) really appreciate it. :T- Bottom
Comment
-
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc
For audio, BD-ROM players are required to support Dolby Digital AC-3, DTS, and linear PCM. Players may optionally support Dolby Digital Plus, and lossless formats Dolby TrueHD and DTS HD. BD-ROM titles must use one of mandatory schemes for the primary soundtrack.- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Pace3000I was under the impression that there was an increasing move towards doing the decoding in the player, and just trying to find this. As I understand it, the Wikipedia quote above suggests that only DD, DTS and linear PCM are required in the player, and that the Blu Ray disc itself must have one of those three. The Dolby TrueHD/DTS HD are optional on both the player and the disc.
I think that what this shows is that, as has been stated, it does not matter where the decoding takes place as long as it takes place somewhere!- Bottom
Comment
-
I've done some research since my last post, and will agree with those that state decoding can be done (must be done per spec?) in the player. But to get those signals to the processor requires a 5.1 (or 7.1) analog output, and not all players that I was able to find on several HT equipment review websites have them. I see that if one goes that route, you're getting your cake and eating it too, but why go that route when you can have the player pass the native bitstream via HDMI (with a single cable mind you) and let the processor decode things? The latter just seems like a far simpler solution.
Sikoniko, I hear what you're saying about a light on the pro, but for me, I want it done in the processor. Easier installation, fewer cables, and I would like to think, better decoding. YMMV.- Bottom
Comment
-
Analog inputs can be done today.
I think you guys are reading too much into this.
As long as Linear PCM is required by BD, that can pass across HDMI to the SSP-800.
Depending on which player you get, they will do the processing on the player.
for example:
Panasonic DMP-BD50 and Pioneer BDP-05FD both do Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD MA internally. The PS3 does not do DTS-HD MA internally, but it does do TrueHD.
As far as the Denon, I would chose another option. Is a player that expensive really worth it anymore? I'm not sure.I'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...- Bottom
Comment
-
I'll try to clear things up a little bit. I'll speak more towards BD than HD-DVD because I know more about the models available and it seems to be the format mentioned more often here.
There are some players on the market that are basic BD players (like the Sony BDP-S300) that do not output, or decode, Dolby TrueHD or dtsHD Master Audio in any form. The best you will get from that player is DD or dts "core" audio. No matter what processor you have, you will not get either of the HD audio formats at all.
Some players like the Sony BDP-S500, BDP-S2000ES, Pioneer Elite BDP-95FD, Samsung BD-P1400 (with the firmware update) will output both HD formats in their encoded bitstream form via HDMI. These players will decode the Dolby TrueHD internally and output an uncompressed multi-channel PCM signal to the processor via the HDMI as well. They will not decode dtsHD Master Audio in the player however. The only way to hear that is to have a processor that will decode that signal with these players.
The Denon DVD-3800BDCI (and this is the first player to do this as far as I know) will decode both HD audio formats internally and output them as a multi channel PCM to a processor via HDMI. It will also output both HD audio formats in bitstream form to a processor. You will see more and more players that will do this in the future to comply with the new standards for BD players. I know that Pioneer Elite showed a unit at CES that will do this as well.
The Denon DVD-2500BTCI is a transport only and will not decode anything in the player. All decoding has to be done in the processor.
If the decoding (or uncompressing) of the Dolby TrueHD or dtsHD Master Audio is done in the player or processor it shouldn't matter. Since these formats are still in their infancy, I haven't had enough products to compare the quality of the decoding from one unit to another. As we all know, there is a big difference in sound quality of digital to analog conversion from brand to brand and product to product. That will always be done in the processor with all of the ways described here. I personally have heard big differences in standard DD and dts decoding from one company to another. If that holds true with the HD formats, then that would be the only reason to possibly want the decoding in the processor (assuming it would be better than the player).
I hope this clears some of this up.
Eric- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by sikonikoAs far as the Denon, I would chose another option. Is a player that expensive really worth it anymore? I'm not sure.
Eric- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Minardi2RebelMan -
Have I stated at some point in time that it was taking too long for Classe to get this product to market? I don't recall that I did, but if you can direct me to a posting of mine where I did, I'll throw myself on the sword. I do remember saying that I'm not in a big hurry to get a new processor because I won't be getting a high-def DVD player anytime soon.
The fact that this unit is incomplete and that there are no other competitors at this price point is irrelevant. Those are two different issues. If Classe makes an upgrade available at some point, then great, it would eventually become a moot point.
No one has replied to my post (#14) as to how the hi-rez decoding is done. If the player MUST do it, as you stated, what does that mean exactly? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really want to know.
I've done a quick search for a white paper but haven't found anything pertinent. If someone has a link, could you please post it? Thanks.
Thank God I do not wait :Z
Generally speaking, the decoder inside a good processor is always better than in the player, more so speaking about Sony, Toshiba, Philips, etc players.- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by hifiguymiIf you look at what that player is, and does, I don't think it's over priced. It has a great scaler for DVD's (we still have a lot of those around), it is the only player I know of that will decode Dolby TrueHD and dtsHD Master Audio internally, it has 7.1 analog outputs (instead of 5.1 like most other players), it has Denon's best SS processor for decoding the HD audio formats, and it has high performance DACs and Denon's AL24 processing for all 8 channels. It looks like it's worth it to me for the right person.
EricI'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by AldoWhen I upgrade my processor it should have HDMI 1.3 and decode hi-rez formats!
The new Yamaha receiver can do it, so I do not know why Classe, Halcro, Levinson etc can't!- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by AldoWhen I upgrade my processor it should have HDMI 1.3 and decode hi-rez formats!
The new Yamaha receiver can do it, so I do not know why Classe, Halcro, Levinson etc can't!- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Mark-n-bWhat SSP settings will be available using the LPCM signal? I take it that bass management, speaker equalisation etc will be available using this signal, just as if it were any other signal? If that is the case, then it’s not the end of the world, but I do think that Classe should confirm an upgrade path for those that buy the SSP, even if customers have to pay for it.
RebelMan,
Thanks for the coverage.
P.S. was there any Rotel news?- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by sikonikoPlease refer to the 2 models above that I mentioned. They both do the audio codecs.
Eric- Bottom
Comment
-
[QUOTE=sikoniko]Analog inputs can be done today.
I think you guys are reading too much into this.
As long as Linear PCM is required by BD, that can pass across HDMI to the SSP-800.
Depending on which player you get, they will do the processing on the player.
QUOTE]
That's great for some people that analog inputs can be done today. But doing it today doesn't make it better, just different. I'll take my HDMI 1.3 and let the processor do the work thanks.- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by StormwatchWith LPCM all SSP features are fully funcitonal. Any signal like Dolby Digital will be before processing decoded to a LPCM signal! To deal with PCM is a processores standard task- Bottom
Comment
-
[QUOTE=Minardi2]Originally posted by sikonikoAnalog inputs can be done today.
I think you guys are reading too much into this.
As long as Linear PCM is required by BD, that can pass across HDMI to the SSP-800.
Depending on which player you get, they will do the processing on the player.
QUOTE]
That's great for some people that analog inputs can be done today. But doing it today doesn't make it better, just different. I'll take my HDMI 1.3 and let the processor do the work thanks.
So, in May, a processor (SSP-800) will be available with a better 2 channel preamp than anything they currently offer today, AS WELL AS support for HDMI AUDIO via HDMI 1.3a, initially utilizing LPCM, while offering an update path to on board CODEC processing when it becomes available.
All of this for $1500 more than the cost of the current SSP-600. How much is a CP-700 going for these days? And the SSP-800 will be better at 2 channel than that and offer HDMI audio support? And you guys are NOT happy????
WhenI'm just sittin here watchin the wheels go round and round...- Bottom
Comment
-
I simply don't understand why high-end companies have had a lot of trouble getting any hdmi 1.3 based based pre/pro out of the door. Don't we have excellent engineers in North America and Europe!
- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by metanoizeI simply don't understand why high-end companies have had a lot of trouble getting any hdmi 1.3 based based pre/pro out of the door. Don't we have excellent engineers in North America and Europe!
http://blog.hometheatermag.com/ces2008/10908simevo/"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
[QUOTE=sikoniko]Originally posted by Minardi2
I still think you guys are missing the point. When the SSP-800 comes out, it will have HDMI 1.3a, per James. When it is first released, it will support audio, via LPCM THROUGH HDMI. Classe has every intention of releasing an update chip for the SSP-800, when it becomes available, that will add support for on-board processing of new Codecs.
So, in May, a processor (SSP-800) will be available with a better 2 channel preamp than anything they currently offer today, AS WELL AS support for HDMI AUDIO via HDMI 1.3a, initially utilizing LPCM, while offering an update path to on board CODEC processing when it becomes available.
All of this for $1500 more than the cost of the current SSP-600. How much is a CP-700 going for these days? And the SSP-800 will be better at 2 channel than that and offer HDMI audio support? And you guys are NOT happy????
The DSP will be an upgradeable MDS DAE-7 module which is based on the TI Aureus processor chip. Unlike other DAE kits all of the DSP support architecture and circuitry including power supplies, ADCs and DACs are engineered by Classe’. The DAE-7 will not support the decoding of the high-definition audio codecs like Dolby Digital Plus and TrueHD and DTS-HD HRA and MA but it will support all the standard audio codecs and multi-channel LPCM. HDMI 1.3a is included as is support for Deep Color video.
Classe’s supplier of the DSP’s could not make a solid commitment to produce a high-definition compatible module in time for the SSP’s launch. Later when MDS makes an upgrade available that supports the new codecs Classe’ may offer it to their customer’s for no extra charge. Classe’ is “expecting” something later this year, perhaps in the fall sometime but it’s still up in the air.
Then again they may not offer the upgrade at all. There are a number of dependencies as to why. One such factor is due to the high-definition formats specification that all decoding take place on the player. Time will tell but the lack of SSP onboard decoding should not be viewed as a deal breaker for anyone. Sony and Toshiba designed it that way!
If you know something different and definitive that they will release an update, that's fabulous. But he made it very clear that it was up in the air.
I'm not sure why you're flumoxed by my opinion on this. It's not like I'm wanting something that no other manufacture does, or can do. Decoding in the processor/AVR for TrueHD and DTS-HDMA will be the norm I suspect, and I just wish Classe would be doing it from the get go. That's all.- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by sikonikoDo you have that backwards? 2 outputs and 4 inputs?
btw, are they reducing all of those stereo inputs on the back? I only use 1 in my system (for the wii)."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Minardi2RebelMan -
Have I stated at some point in time that it was taking too long for Classe to get this product to market? I don't recall that I did, but if you can direct me to a posting of mine where I did, I'll throw myself on the sword. I do remember saying that I'm not in a big hurry to get a new processor because I won't be getting a high-def DVD player anytime soon."I'll be in the market for a new processor sometime after CES..."
The fact that this unit is incomplete and that there are no other competitors at this price point is irrelevant. Those are two different issues. If Classe makes an upgrade available at some point, then great, it would eventually become a moot point.
No one has replied to my post (#14) as to how the hi-rez decoding is done. If the player MUST do it, as you stated, what does that mean exactly? I'm not trying to be obtuse, I really want to know.
I've done a quick search for a white paper but haven't found anything pertinent. If someone has a link, could you please post it? Thanks."Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
-
Originally posted by Minardi2RebelMan, any word on if the 800 will be THX certified? And if so, would it be Ultra2?"Dream as if you'll live forever. Live as if you'll die today."- Bottom
Comment
Comment