Dayton Classic WMTMW

[mpotoka]

I don't see too much use of the Classic line of drivers over here but I thought I'd put this out there anyway.

I'm looking at almost what could be considered a poor mans Khanspire (in fact now that I live in Chicago maybe we could get a side/by/side comparison?)--I have never used any of the dayton classics or the dayton silkie and this seemed like a fun way to see what they are like.

2 DC200-8 8" Classic Woofers (295-310)
2 DC130BS 5 1/4" Classic Woofer (295-302)
1 DC28FS-8 Silkie (275-075)

Run the 8" in parallel in about 80l tuned to about 30 hz
Run the 5 1/4" in series in a small sealed chamber

On paper this would give around a 88.8 sensitivity. I thought about making it a WWMTMWW to keep it at a 8 ohm load but I don't want to make that big of a box.

I'm thinkin a 11" wide by 14" deep by 50" (or so) tall. I'm also leaning towards a down firing port so my little kids don't use it as a depository for little people or legos. This would be 100% music, although I would probably sell them to someone eventually (maybe not if I like them enough)


Any suggestions?

[HareBrained]

Sounds like a neat idea. There's a design called Cinderella that uses the DC200 up to 400Hz. I've looked at using it in a few different designs. It does have a lot of potential as a bass woofer.

I realize you have a theme going, but you might want to consider the MCM 55-3870 instead of the DC130. The MCM is priced very similarly and is a better performer. But either way, it's going to have a high value factor.

[mpotoka]

Sounds like a neat idea. There's a design called Cinderella that uses the DC200 up to 400Hz. I've looked at using it in a few different designs. It does have a lot of potential as a bass woofer.

I realize you have a theme going, but you might want to consider the MCM 55-3870 instead of the DC130. The MCM is priced very similarly and is a better performer. But either way, it's going to have a high value factor.

I am quite familiar with the Cinderellas--I looked at them a lot when i was working with some B3Ns awhile ago. Some of the favorable things I've read about them led me to choosing the 8" classic.

I was looking at the 4 ohm 5 1/4" but now am leaning towards the 8 ohms and running them in parallel instead--picks up a wee bit of sensitivity.

I considered the MCM woofs but am really looking at a Classic tower at the moment. I don't really expect I will be keeping these so I'm not completely focused on best performance for the dollar.

[dawg1161]

I hope you follow this through to the end as this would be a great design for the poor(me):B

Good Luck.

[mpotoka]

I hope you follow this through to the end as this would be a great design for the poor(me):B

Good Luck.

Hey--after I'm done building them I'll sell them to you for cost--but then you miss out on the building part.

[dawg1161]

:rofl: Thanks for thinking of me but all i need to do is buy the 8 inchers and crossover parts .....it seems that I have many Classic drivers (5 1/4, 6 1/2 and silkies) So I'll be watching and learning as you go. :T

[JAS]

I to would consider following along. I have some Tribunes that I could use for parts.

[servicetech]

How about doing a MTMWW? Keep the bass part of the tower at the bottom. Or you could use a single 295-010 in a TMWW instead of the 2 5.25 classics.

[mpotoka]

Is there any impact on phase doing a MTMWW instead of a WMTMW? It would certainly help me get the tweeter up a bit higher.

I've also always wondered if a drivers distance from a port has any real difference or not--does a driver 20" away "see" more of the port than a driver 40" away--partially blocked by a midrange compartment?

I think messing around with that PA driver might be fun to play with--for right now I'm going to stick with the classic series just to see what they can do.

[bluewizard]

Have you considered using the Dayton Dual Voice Coils speakers for your woofers? They are a very similar in design and construction to the Classic series. If fact, I would venture they are the same speaker, but the DVC has dual voice coils.

This would allow you to configure each speakers as a 16 ohm, then when you combine the two speakers in parallel, you get 8 ohms. That allows you to create a system with an overall rating of 8 ohms.

Here is a link to the specs on the Dayton Classic 5" -

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-310s.pdf

Here is a link to the specs of the Dayton DVC 8" -

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-480s.pdf

Very close, but I would venture that the DVC is a little better.

There is some complication in determining the various T/S parameters of the series voice coils but I'm sure that could be resolved.

Also, have you given any thought to the crossovers? It seems that the midrange is the limiting factor. Despite claims of response to 4,000hz, there is a nasty peak just above 2khz. Though that could maybe be tamed.

Though I understand you are intent on using the very economical Classic series, which I also find appealing. You might want to consider the 4" full range from the Reference Series. They don't have quite as high an output, but are reasonably flat from 100hz to 10khz, and are about $26 each. That gives you a lot of flexibility in crossovers.

Just a thought.

Steve/bluewizard

[HareBrained]

Is there any impact on phase doing a MTMWW instead of a WMTMW? It would certainly help me get the tweeter up a bit higher.

I've also always wondered if a drivers distance from a port has any real difference or not--does a driver 20" away "see" more of the port than a driver 40" away--partially blocked by a midrange compartment?

I think messing around with that PA driver might be fun to play with--for right now I'm going to stick with the classic series just to see what they can do.

The biggest issues with driver separation is the xover freqs. The drivers center-to-center distance needs to be less than the wavelength of the highest frequency it plays. The MTM arrangement was implemented because 3000Hz wavelength is 115mm, which is barely enough for a 135mm driver and 100mm tweeter.

If you're at 400Hz, the wavelength is 865mm. You should be able to keep the drivers close enough in an MTMWW configuration.

There is not difference to the drivers and their distance to the port. You may have a problem if the inside end of the port is too close to a wall (needs to be at least the port's diameter from anything else) or if the port is in a significantly smaller volume than the drivers. The smaller volume may be seen as a port to the drivers.

[jkrueger]

just a builder, not a designer

I love this idea. I am really thrilled with the original idea of the classic drivers. About two years ago, I decided to build a really big 8" mtm from another website. It was a terrible and unlistenable design. I happen to have the 8" drivers and the tweeters just lying around For what its worth if this wmtmw went through to completion, I would be on it like white on rice. :T

[mpotoka]

Have you considered using the Dayton Dual Voice Coils speakers for your woofers? They are a very similar in design and construction to the Classic series. If fact, I would venture they are the same speaker, but the DVC has dual voice coils.

This would allow you to configure each speakers as a 16 ohm, then when you combine the two speakers in parallel, you get 8 ohms. That allows you to create a system with an overall rating of 8 ohms.

Here is a link to the specs on the Dayton Classic 5" -

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-310s.pdf

Here is a link to the specs of the Dayton DVC 8" -

http://www.parts-express.com/pdf/295-480s.pdf

Very close, but I would venture that the DVC is a little better.

There is some complication in determining the various T/S parameters of the series voice coils but I'm sure that could be resolved.

Also, have you given any thought to the crossovers? It seems that the midrange is the limiting factor. Despite claims of response to 4,000hz, there is a nasty peak just above 2khz. Though that could maybe be tamed.

Though I understand you are intent on using the very economical Classic series, which I also find appealing. You might want to consider the 4" full range from the Reference Series. They don't have quite as high an output, but are reasonably flat from 100hz to 10khz, and are about $26 each. That gives you a lot of flexibility in crossovers.

Just a thought.

Steve/bluewizard

I have looked at the DVC and also the RS 150 and RS 100. But I kept coming back to the Classic series. I have never worked with them so I am interested in playing around with them--the price of entry is not bad at all.

I hadn't considered the XO too much yet---I didn't give it too much thought since the Tritrix uses these drivers and I have read many places that the Tritrix "sound way better than the should" given the cost. I will have to re-work it a bit for a wider baffle... I've always wanted to build a pair of the tritrix just for fun--this just seemed like a bit more fun to try.

There are endless projects I would like to try, for now I'm going to stick with the classics. I suppose I'll have to put my order in.

Thanks for the suggestions! I may have to think about a DVC 8 (or 10?), RS150, DC28....

[---k---]

Bring them on over once you get them done.

The biggest difference between a mtmww and wmtmw would be the bass reinforcement you get off of the floor. You would get more with the mtmww. Some claim some magic to having the symetry of the wmtmw, but I'm not sure this is true. I think it comes down to the form factor your significant other is willing to put up with.

[mpotoka]

Well put the driver suggestions aside--I have place my order. I'll have them on Wednesday so I will see if I can get away with doing some work on the boxes Monday and Tuesday.

[JAS]

What arrangement did you decide on? Hopefully wmtmw for visual appeal if anything. Could you post cab details when available? Not sure if I am jumping gun but could, or like to start along with you.

[mpotoka]

Bring them on over once you get them done.

The biggest difference between a mtmww and wmtmw would be the bass reinforcement you get off of the floor. You would get more with the mtmww. Some claim some magic to having the symetry of the wmtmw, but I'm not sure this is true. I think it comes down to the form factor your significant other is willing to put up with.

I will do that! I told my significant other I was thinking about doing this but haven't actually told her i'm going to start building them...... She probably guesses though.

[mpotoka]

What arrangement did you decide on? Hopefully wmtmw for visual appeal if anything. Could you post cab details when available? Not sure if I am jumping gun but could, or like to start along with you.

Ok--I went with a WMTMW and I'm leaving it at 49" tall. I will have to figure out a way to lift it up--I will need about a 4" base to get it up off the ground.

I'll put these drawings with dimensions on here-I may need to slightly modify them if the cutout size varies from the listed specs.

Port length at this point is also an estimate. (using Precision Port 4" flared)





Note I also decided to not offset the tweeter or mids. I made the aesthetic decision over the functional one--I just like how they look better all stacked up. Also I did not draw the roundver on here--I will be maxing it out up to the flanges--probably in the 1.15" range--sides only not the top.

[mpotoka]

Cut sheets--I went to Home Depot and had them cut a sheet in half for me--not a lot of room for error either with trying to maximize the sheet. Requires one 4x8 (49x97) and one 2'x4' sheet.

EDIT! I forgot the parts for the 2nd midrange chamber. That would require an additional 24x24 by 3/4" piece.

If you want to double up the baffle--a 2'x4' piece (1/2" or 3/4") is also required.

[brianpowers27]

Cut sheets--I went to Home Depot and had them cut a sheet in half for me--not a lot of room for error either with trying to maximize the sheet. Requires one 4x8 (49x97) and one 2'x4' sheet.

EDIT! I forgot the parts for the 2nd midrange chamber. That would require an additional 24x24 by 3/4" piece.

If you want to double up the baffle--a 2'x4' piece (1/2" or 3/4") is also required.

You are "cutting" it awfully close on your cut sheet. I have done this and wound up short due to the thickness of the saw blade and ever so inexact cutting against the fence! ops:

[mpotoka]

You are "cutting" it awfully close on your cut sheet. I have done this and wound up short due to the thickness of the saw blade and ever so inexact cutting against the fence! ops:

I just actually finished ripping all the pieces. I had figured a 1/8" rip on each cut. I think I ended up cutting down the width of the front baffle to 10 15/16" to make sure I didn't end up short.

Like I said--You better make sure the guy at Home Depot gets it cut exactly in half. If you have a pickup truck and not a minivan you can just get the whole sheet.

I was a carpenter in my previous life so I usually plan on not screwing on the cutting part. Last time I did a chambered 3 way though I forgot to leave room between the woofer and midrange for the 3/4" chamber and had to redo some work

[Curt C]

I don't see too much use of the Classic line of drivers over here but I thought I'd put this out there anyway.

On paper this would give around a 88.8 sensitivity. I thought about making it a WWMTMWW to keep it at a 8 ohm load but I don't want to make that big of a box.

I'm thinkin a 11" wide by 14" deep by 50" (or so) tall. I'm also leaning towards a down firing port so my little kids don't use it as a depository for little people or legos. This would be 100% music, although I would probably sell them to someone eventually (maybe not if I like them enough)


Any suggestions?

This should be a great bang for the buck design. Lots of SPL, (about 105 dB)lots of bass, (f3/f10 of 30 Hz / 20 Hz in 80 ltrs tuned to 25 Hz)
-Lots of everything. in fact, except $$$.

I predict it will be a popular design. Since I have a modicum of experience with these drivers, I'd be glad to provide any assistance I can.

C

[JAS]

4 layers of 3/4 laminated together gets you an additional 3 inches for the base and then spikes if used is another 2 or so inches giving the tweeter a height of 31+3+2=37-38. perfect for my situation.

On the second drawing I am a bit loss. The way I see it you have three end pieces per cab, maybe the one extra an internal brace? You only show one enough for one mid chamber and the front baffle should be doubled up or use a 1/2" laminated to the 3/4. So unless I do different or missing something it's going to take a full two sheets.

[dawg1161]

Way to tall.. I have to worry about the Wife Appeal Factor at my house..Massive speakers....The last time i seen anything that tall was Iowa DIY 2007....

[mpotoka]

Way to tall.. I have to worry about the Wife Appeal Factor at my house..Massive speakers....The last time i seen anything that tall was Iowa DIY 2007....

I feel for you--compared to the stuff I used to put my wife through remodeling our house (a 2 year process while we were living in it) something like this is a non issue. Besides--they will sit right next to my 6' tall Ikea bookcase and still look small.

[mpotoka]

4 layers of 3/4 laminated together gets you an additional 3 inches for the base and then spikes if used is another 2 or so inches giving the tweeter a height of 31+3+2=37-38. perfect for my situation.

On the second drawing I am a bit loss. The way I see it you have three end pieces per cab, maybe the one extra an internal brace? You only show one enough for one mid chamber and the front baffle should be doubled up or use a 1/2" laminated to the 3/4. So unless I do different or missing something it's going to take a full two sheets.

The second drawing has 2 end caps per cab and one internal brace--I plan on putting the brace a little below the bottom woofer. You are right I did forget about a mid chamber for the 2nd speaker. I guess I'll just use some of the 3/4" ply I have around for that. Good catch!

[mpotoka]

This should be a great bang for the buck design. Lots of SPL, (about 105 dB)lots of bass, (f3/f10 of 30 Hz / 20 Hz in 80 ltrs tuned to 25 Hz)
-Lots of everything. in fact, except $$$.

I predict it will be a popular design. Since I have a modicum of experience with these drivers, I'd be glad to provide any assistance I can.

C

I'd love to have a little collaboration in order to make sure I end up with a quality product. Right now its a matter of assembling the boxes and getting some measurements. I am starting to look at potential crossover points--from your experience with these drivers do you have any suggestions on where to start looking?

[Undefinition]

I'd love to have a little collaboration in order to make sure I end up with a quality product. Right now its a matter of assembling the boxes and getting some measurements. I am starting to look at potential crossover points--from your experience with these drivers do you have any suggestions on where to start looking?

I like 250 and 2500 Hz. But that's a personal preference. I don't like crossing the Woofer to Mids higher because you're getting into vocal territory. On the other hand, most 3-ways do cross higher than that; I have no idea why, other than it's easier to measure (250 Hz is near the bottom of what you can get gated MLS to do in a normal room).

[jkrueger]

Driver layout/crossover frequency

I am wondering what kind of screw-up I would be creating if I took a wmtmw plan and made a unilateral decision in my shop to move both of the woofers to the bottom. How big a mistake would this be? I would imagine that the answer to this question would need to take into account the crossover frequency...I know that I am getting a little ahead of the business here, but I intend to use these speakers for garage duty, and maybe some HT. This kind of switching seems to be frowned on, but I would love to know why. Thanks to all of those smart enough to actually create the cool plans that I have had fun building. ;x( ;x( ;x(

[HareBrained]

I like 250 and 2500 Hz. But that's a personal preference. I don't like crossing the Woofer to Mids higher because you're getting into vocal territory. On the other hand, most 3-ways do cross higher than that; I have no idea why, other than it's easier to measure (250 Hz is near the bottom of what you can get gated MLS to do in a normal room).

Some things that may be of consideration: "middle C" has a frequency of ~264Hz (depending on the source), the audible frequency range of 20Hz to 20kHz (10 octaves) has the middle octaves (5th & 6th) span 320Hz to 1280Hz, and the human speaking voice fundamental frequency is typically 85-255Hz with a vocal range up to ~1100Hz. Harmonics will be higher.

I think if vocals is the criteria for setting the xover frequency, there's a lot to avoid and the woofer/midbass is far more important than the tweeter.

[mpotoka]

Some things that may be of consideration: "middle C" has a frequency of ~264Hz (depending on the source), the audible frequency range of 20Hz to 20kHz (10 octaves) has the middle octaves (5th & 6th) span 320Hz to 1280Hz, and the human speaking voice fundamental frequency is typically 85-255Hz with a vocal range up to ~1100Hz. Harmonics will be higher.

I think if vocals is the criteria for setting the xover frequency, there's a lot to avoid and the woofer/midbass is far more important than the tweeter.

Defniately food for thought. I know there are designs out there using the 8" classic in a 2 way (up to the 1400 hz range)

My box for the mids will have a Q around .8 and an f3 of 110. I am trying to wrap my brain around the possibility of using the enclosure the function as the high pass for the mids. Has such a thing been done? I thought I read a thread somewhere about someone using a box as a filter. Hmmmmm....

EDIT: Sounds like using a box as a High Pass is not a good idea. Oh well.

[Curt C]

I'd love to have a little collaboration in order to make sure I end up with a quality product. Right now its a matter of assembling the boxes and getting some measurements. I am starting to look at potential crossover points--from your experience with these drivers do you have any suggestions on where to start looking?

The DC130’s, depending on which version chosen, have a resonant peak starting around 3 to 4 kHz. To keep the crossover network simple, I’d probably cross much lower, below 2 K, anyway. This would be both due to the MTM spacing, and to push the DC130’s distortion products down into the stop band. The DC200, on the other hand, has its first resonant peak around 900 Hz, so probably no higher than 400-500 Hz would be a good choice here, assuming a 2nd order acoustic slope.

If you can provide .frd and .zma files for the drivers in your enclosure, I’d be glad to look at them, and perhaps suggest a crossover possibility.

C

[Curt C]

I am wondering what kind of screw-up I would be creating if I took a wmtmw plan and made a unilateral decision in my shop to move both of the woofers to the bottom.

Big, BIG, mistake. -HUGE !!! :thud:


OK, I'll give up on my pathetic attempt at humor...

Likely some changes in voicing would occur due to the differing diffraction effects, but for garage duty, I doubt it will be a show stopper. Once mpotoka gets the baffle design etched in stone, we can model the differences to get some idea, but I wouldn't lose any sleep over it.

C

[mpotoka]

The DC130’s, depending on which version chosen, have a resonant peak starting around 3 to 4 kHz. To keep the crossover network simple, I’d probably cross much lower, below 2 K, anyway. This would be both due to the MTM spacing, and to push the DC130’s distortion products down into the stop band. The DC200, on the other hand, has its first resonant peak around 900 Hz, so probably no higher than 400-500 Hz would be a good choice here, assuming a 2nd order acoustic slope.

If you can provide .frd and .zma files for the drivers in your enclosure, I’d be glad to look at them, and perhaps suggest a crossover possibility.

C

Sounds great--I was thinking if you were willing to do something like that it would be fun to compare what we each came up with. Now I have a little extra motivation too with the DIY Indiana coming up I plan on bringing these...

[Curt C]

Sounds great--I was thinking if you were willing to do something like that it would be fun to compare what we each came up with. Now I have a little extra motivation too with the DIY Indiana coming up I plan on bringing these...

I'm sure your version will trump anything I might scratch out... :B

C

[mpotoka]

Teaser Pic!

The drivers showed up about 3:00 today--I was able to get all the flush-mounting routing done and the cutouts for the drivers on one baffle. I'm about 1/32" too small on my midwoofers so I'll have to do a bit of sanding.

[---k---]

Wow. Amazingly fast progress. We're going to be listening to these shortly, aren't we? Are you going to have a method of transporting them?

[mpotoka]

Wow. Amazingly fast progress. We're going to be listening to these shortly, aren't we? Are you going to have a method of transporting them?

If I don't "get it done" then I tend to let it slide and maybe never completely finish whatever I started.

I actually want to bring one home and play with a few different filters just to get some listening in--maybe I'll spend a week or so listening and tinkering before I make any XO decisions....I'd like to get some .frd and .zma files by the weekend and bring it home to start the listening. And yep--I have a minivan I can take the seats out of and haul them around with.

[jkrueger]

If I don't "get it done" then I tend to let it slide and maybe never completely finish whatever I started.

Oh the horror! I haven't been this excited about a project for a long time. That would be a heart breaker for me man. :cry: :cry: :cry:

[mpotoka]

Don't worry--I'm planning on bringing them to DIY Indiana so I have a very specific finishing plan. I haven't been this excited about a build either (I think I like building big speakers better than small ones like I've been working on)

[jkrueger]

"Small speakers suck" ---k---



All I have to say is amen!

[mpotoka]

Port Placement Issue??

I want to know if there is any issue with the location of the port in relation to the bottom woofer. If anything the port would get shortened about 3"-4". Here is a pic to illustrate what I am talking about. The picture is not a very good angle--I would say the top of the flare is about in the middle of the woofer.

When calculating what the length of the port is--do I measure from the outside of the flared edge or from the interior of the box? It would make a 1.5" difference depending where I measure.

[mpotoka]

And a pic of the front just because I was there with the camera:

[CupCak3]

I'm also very interested in this project. It seems it could yield a very high value, low cost design. I've got a couple of friends which these would fall right in their budget!

[mpotoka]

Well I didn't get any measurements done this weekend. I did get the drivers mounted in one of the boxes and was able to listen for an hour or so (I put a couple components on the tweeter so I didn't trash it) I will take a picture of the drivers mounted tomorrow. Picture of the cabinet with roundovers done--I need to put roundovers on the base still.