Munich Report Part One: DIY support for electronics, and some listening configuration

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 08:25 Tuesday

The source component Evolution- a brief description

Now, this is just to describe the source part of this system- NOT to advocate that this is the only way to do this, but just to outline the very basics of how it came to be, and how it has been augmented over time as regards audible performance- perceptual that is, not by measurements. And what those perceptual changes/improvements are about, how they're are subjectively perceived.

My friend has had Zodiac Gold DACs in the past, and eventually was running them with a Rubidium clock. But after quite a few home trials of top units from MSB, Meitner Labs, and others,(some of which I was able to be present for) he found that the TotalDAC-D1 had the presentation which he desired as regards imaging, tonal richness and transient definition, etc. He bought one in 2012, and I did in 2013. (this is not to say that there may be other choices just as good now, or even better, but comparing in his system at the time, that was the judgement. (for example, I am still quite curious about the Berkeley Alpha RS DAC, on the very high end, and the Schiit Yggdrasil on the low end is quite exceptional)).

Alas, you won't find reviews in Stereophile or other 'zines I've checked out- though the Audiostream contributor Michael Lavorgna has bit the bullet (or has it bitten him?) and is in love with the Totaldac d1-tube-mk2. The TotalDAC is an NOS DAC- Non OverSampling R2R Ladder DAC, running always at the incoming system frequency. It configures an R2R Ladder DAC using a DSP and 0.01% Vishay metal foil resistors. No delta sigma modulator or sample rate conversion- asynchronous or otherwise.

Basic description from Vincent Brient:

Clock and anti-jitter FIFO:
Jitter is very important for sound quality. It is related to the digital source and to the system clock. These days digital sources are sometimes computers so I wanted to make a DAC able to reduce the jitter of the source. An external clock is a common solution but it requires a digital source equipped with clock input, it exists but it is rare and specific. I wanted to make a DAC which can work with any digital sources and any operating systems and softwares when a computer is used. The only solution I could find is a solution rarely used, it is used only in some high end equipment based on FPGA and it uses a buffer memory (FIFO) to store about 10ms of audio data at the digital source rhythm and output a stream at a local oscillator rhythm.

FIR compensation filter:
Non-oversampling DACs are known for their musicality but they all have a problem, the frequency response is not flat and the treble loss is more than 3 dB at 20KHz. This is called sinus(x)/x loss. All DACs with oversampling compensate the sin(x)/x loss in their digital filter. On the TOTALDAC board I didn't want to use oversampling because I prefer non-oversampling DAC sound, but I used a FIR filter to compensate the sin(x)/x loss. It is a short FIR for high frequencies only, so response before impact is short and is not a problem.

TotalDAC-D1 Frequency response with and without FIR filter

TotalDAC-D1 without FIR filter (option selectable with remote)

TotalDAC-D1 with FIR filter (option selectable with remote)

Oh, and if you want to get all warm and fuzzy audiophile on it, you can now get a version with a very linear low noise vacuum tube output stage, and silver front panel options are available, like the one I have.

The TotalDAC-D1 is highly customizable, one of them being options to combine sets of R2R ladder resistors in parallel, giving lower noise and averaging out the resistor errors. up to six sets per channel. This may be configured in mono block configurations of the DAC, where each chassis handles just one channel of audio.

Specs and options:

-192KHz asynchronous Xmos USB, optical, RCA and AES-EBU digital inputs, selected from a remote control.
-44.1KHz, 48KHz, 88.2KHz, 96KHz, 176.4KHz and 192KHz, 16 to 24 bit formats supported on all inputs except 96KHz max for optical input.
-as an option, DSD (DoP standard) supported on the USB, AES-EBU and spdif inputs.
-USB input compatible with Jplay in 24 bit "extreme hibernate" mode.
-embedded custom clock with anti-jitter FIFO memory.
-3.1Vrms max RCA, 6.2Vrms max XLR analog output and 32ohm-600ohm 3.1Vrms max headphone amplifier.
-volume control, adjusted by a remote control and an OLED display, works for all inputs, not only USB.
-phase polarity selected by remote control.
-non-oversampling DAC compensation filter activated or disactivated by remote control.
-display switched off by remote control or automatic.
-R2R DAC technology using 0.01% VAR Bulk Metal® Foil resistors Vishay Foil Resistors, 200 resistors per stereo channel.
-dual DAC option included, using 2 DACs per channel for a 100% balanced DAC. Upgrades the XLR output only. A special XLR to RCA is available as an optional extra to get the dual DAC sound to an amplifier with RCA inputs.
-class A discrete transistor output stage for the d1-dual DAC.
-external power supply to minimize the noise on the embedded preamp.
-aluminium and PMMA enclosure with massive pure copper antivibration plate.
-power consumption 21W.
-DAC dimensions: height 110mm, width 360mm, depth 290mm.
-power supply dimensions: height 65mm, width 122mm, depth 180mm.
-weight: 6.5kg.
Available options:
-DSD (DoP) option.
-silver massive aluminium front panel.
-115V power option.
-BNC coaxial digital input instead of RCA.
-D2-dual, 69 bit 2 way active crossover including a digital preamp for the main volume control and also for the relative level between bass and treble. The bass channel uses two RCA connectors for stereo without dual DAC option or in mono with dual DAC option. The mid-high channel uses RCA and xlr (balanced) connectors, with dual DAC option. The crossover slope can be 6dB/oct, 12dB/oct or 18dB/oct. All parameters, crossover frequency, filter slope, relative volume, main volume, relative digital delay... can be controlled from the remote while listening to music. The subwoofer output can be mono-balanced on demand instead of stereo.
With the d2-dual with DSD option the digital delays can't be used.
-2, 3, 4 way active crossover or more, with or without dual DAC option, by associating several DAC boxes.
-pair of XLR to RCA adaptor in an external box, special "dual DAC", 3.1Vrms output.
-USB cable with high performance filter for a noticable sound quality improvement.
-Bass boost.
The list of embedded options is on the serial number sticker on the rear panel of the DAC.

Now, in addition to this, in my friend's system, the incoming digital stream from a TotalDAC Server (music streamer) is re-clocked by a Brainstorm DCD-8 running with an external rubidium oscillator for very high timing accuracy and low phase noise and jitter.

To further stabilize the operation of all of these components, they are run from custom DC sources which are configured from batteries, running to Paul Hynes high speed shunt regulators, and feeding the internal stages of the TotalDAC and powering the DCD-8. This, along with the chargers, is what takes up the majority of the space in the black rack on the left. The batteries are sufficient to power the system for up to about six hours before needing recharging. The purpose and intent is to have as pure a DC source as possible an minimize noise pickup from the AC power lines.

A little bit about the D1 Server/streamer:

The music server allows to listen to all your music from a single storage and with the best possible sound.
The d1-server could also be called network player or streamer.
The d1-server has been designed with the same target as for the Totaldac DACs, to deliver the best sound.
The d1-server is integrated in a d1-digital reclocker which guarantees a low jitter and a low noise
with digital preamplifier functionalities such as several auxiliary digital inputs, all de-jittered by the internal reclocker.
DSD files (DoP standard) are accepted on the USB, spdif and AES-EBU inputs and then resent in DSD DoP format or transformed to pcm 176KHz/24 to the spdif and AES-EBU outputs.

The TotalDAC has a 59 bit digital volume control built into the DSP system, but my friend and I both conclude that for optimal performance a good (note, we should capitalize and bold that adjective) preamp should be used, with the TotalDAC set for full output.

Therein, lies the tale- finding the "Good" preamp.

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 08:26 Tuesday

Configuration One- March 2016

When I arrived for the first listening session, the connected preamp was the Halcro DM10, along with the Halcro DM88 power amplifiers. They had been acquired as a set, and the Halcro was being used while the Cello Chorale was away at Scherzinger for updates. Listening to this configuration with my familiar playlist seemed like a very sensible way to get started. Of course, all I could really do is compare it with my acoustic memory of the same material in my own system as current setup with the Ardents- not the most reliable approach, but then the program material IS music I'm very familiar with, in most cases for a long time.

Now, there are far too many cuts to write up my impressions individually- and yes, I did go through ALL of these cuts in each session. It's wonderful that we had enough time available to do this- free afternoons or free mornings made all the difference.

Summarizing my impressions for this configuration, I had a pretty high opinion of the overall reproduction, but did break it down into frequency ranges, and with regards to some specific characteristics.

In this session, I thought the range from 150 Hz up to about 5kHz was generally well balanced, with very good tonal and transient definition. The only thing I found notably disappointing was the presentation on nearly pure vocal material, like the Poor Clares and Peter Paul & Mary (the latter being the Mobile Fidelity release, which is quite carefully mastered and is a surprisingly good bellwether for vocal reproduction.)

I though the top end above 5 kHz was a little bit disassociated from the rest, and not in as good focus or definition- and during this first listen, I tended to write that off to "soft dome tweeter disease". That did not prove to be correct...

The low frequencies were extended, but in my opinion shelved down, from the upper mid bass. This bothered me enough that we actually moved the couch out of the way, and experimented with different seating distances from the system, partly by first standing and walking forward and backwards to figure out where seemed to have the best bottom end balance. Mostly I found one seating position which I then used the rest of the time, and it worked fairly well, but still presented a shelved down presentation to my ears, as if there were a shelving EQ kicking in around 150 Hz and bringing down the low end in a fairly flat shelf, but with perhaps more of a dip around the 60-85 Hz area. So, a lot of material sounded OK; the low bass in Lorde's "Royals" had some weight, but the bass instruments didn't have the organic weight and integrity that say, the Isiris does in my family room. But I can live with minor sins of omission easier in most cases than commission. The one annoying exception was Spindoctors "Two Princes", which has a very lively syncopated rhythm section, and just didn't work on this setup in any of the configurations we listened to.

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 08:27 Tuesday

Configuration Two: March 2016

The second configuration with the Ayon Spheris II preamp seemed like an opportunity to take a walk on the wild side as regards audiophilia- but in general, it was just disappointing.

Here we have a non feedback vacuum tube preamp with ludicrous amounts of bandwidth (0.5Hz to 500kHz) - with it's own vacuum tube AC regenerator in a separate chassis, maximum output voltage of 40VRMS, and THD rating of <0.01%. Oh, did I mention this thing weighs in at about 88lb? And it's certainly very pretty in a sort of art deco kind of way. If that's your thing...

BUT, the sonics were a step backwards in pretty much all regards from the DM10 Halcro. Distinctly darker, and also lighter overall in the bottom end, it didn't improve the high frequency focus either. Is it just a matter of system matching? I suppose that could be the case, but in no sense did I think it brought me closer to the performers or music or the original acoustical space- something I'm rather a fanatic about.

And the kicker was that for me special vocal tracks, there still wasn't any real magic. Certainly not E30,000 worth.

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 08:27 Tuesday

Configuration Three: March 2016

well, this was getting frustrating- on Tuesday afternoon, we still hadn't gotten the power cable between the head unit and power supply back for the Chorale; it was still in DHL's hand somewhere between Dortmund and Munich.

At this point we broke out the Benchmarks AHB2 just to give a quick listen before heading out to dinner at a local Trattoria/Pizzeria.

At this point we had gone back to the Halcro DM10. And you know, this sounded pretty good- certainly it seemed a contender to what we'd heard with the DM10 and the DM88's earlier. That was most promising, but we didn't really spend a lot of time on it at this point- tracking showed the cable should arrive Wednesday morning, and we should be in business Wednesday evening. The Benchmarks were setup using the dedicated bridged mono input, of course, and with the speaker cables connected across the two binding post hot terminals, as my friend doesn't have any speakon cables, and I didn't bring the ones I'd purchased for evaluating the AHB2's.

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 08:29 Tuesday

Configuration Four: March 2016

Well, finally on Wednesday the preamp power cable was delivered and it was possible to setup the Cello Chorale Preamp again. So, at this point, we had the Chorale running into the Benchmark AHB2's. The AHB2's were on the middle gain setting, requiring 4VRMS for full output.

My friend had talked about how special he thought the Chorale was, but it was hard for me to believe it might be much better than the big Halcro. Boy, was I wrong....

First up in listening again was Curanderos Aras; it has a challenging combination of percussion textures and different stringed instruments, and for being recorded in Boulder Colorado, has an Indian flavor that my friend likes, as do I. We did hear the Halcro briefly on this cut alone before switching to the Chorale. The difference was quite apparent in the clarity of dynamics and instrumental harmonics, as well as more of a sense of acoustic space (manufactured or not!). Additionally, the mid bass seemed firmer and more dynamic. The difference in complex parts of the cut was akin to the difference between a good Nikon kit lens, and a premium Zeiss compatible with the same body, but with much lower chromatic aberration; in audio, it's my perception of the focus of the transient envelope and the harmonic structure- when you hear it, you know it, it's just hard to put into words that convey the difference with alacrity.

Now, a cut that had impressed me with the Halcro + Halcro combination was how much the Acoustic Alchemy cuts from the Red Dust and Spanish Lace album sounded like this was a new high res remaster (I hadn't listened to this at home on the current setup, but it was something I brought along on my portable SSD. With the Chorale and AHB2's, it still sounded like a fresh new mastering job, but instead the body of the guitars were more fleshed out, and the dynamics more sharply focused, especially the high frequencies. Whereas I'd previously rated the performance from 150 to 5kHz as well focused, now the transient focus and high frequency clarity extended substantially higher- and my opinion of the Dynaudio Esotar tweeter used in this system went up a significant notch.

This made me wonder how pop material with strong low frequency content would compare, so up in progression went Lorde's "Tennis Court" and "Royals". Definitely more satisfying in the low end, with a more powerful and textured rendition of the bass, but also more clarity and focus and "aliveness" of the vocals. My friend described the Chorale as simply being more musical, but that hardly seems an adequate phrase.

Shifting gears, I brought out the naturally recorded vocal cuts; Peter Paul and Mary "Think Twice, It's alright" and "Blowin' in the Wind"; now, the instrumental texture and the voices sounded much more like my memory from home, and even better; in comparison, the Halcro preamp had a somewhat "chalky" characteristic to the voice, and somewhat muddled them and the instruments together. Not so with the Chorale and AHB2's. Similar results were obtained with the Poor Clares, on "A Blessing" and "Ny Kiree Fo Niaghtey".

The King James Version (20bit mastering version) went up next; with "Corner Pocket", "Cherokee", and "Sweet Georgia Brown"; all rendered nicely, and most notably making parts lower in the mix more audible and with their own distinct musical lines, such as the piano in "Cherokee".

Selected tracks from "Jazz at the Pawnshop" (if you're going to play warhorses, you may as well go all the way...) revealed the same combination of rich instrumental textures and focused transient definition - as nice as I've ever heard these cuts.

More conventional material, like Daria and Spyro Gyra were reproduced nicely, with more weight in the mid bass than I'd previously heard- but still a bit light in that region- I suspect this is an intrinsic characteristic of the Savoys- next time going to Munich, I need to bring a measurement setup for the speakers. It's possible the Morel mid bass driver just doesn't quite match up to the performance or balance of the rest of the system. I particularly noticed this still with "Two Princes" by the Spindoctors, which still sounded thin and light weight.

we finished up with some "audiophile" type cuts; the organ and saxophone version of "Nobody knows" from Scherzinger, (very spacious sound in a large acoustic space) and Shelby Lynne's "Just a little Lovin", which also had an impressive presentation consistent with the other cuts we auditioned that evening.

So, what are the realistic take aways?

I can't impose any reality about what we heard on you- all I can report is my experience of what we heard in the context of the other listening sessions, and my past experience and system at home. As an engineer, if we find that two components which have similar measurements in at least some regards sound significantly different, I generally find I have to conclude we aren't measuring the right things. Of course, I haven't benched either the Halcro DM10 at my friends or the Chorale, and can only go by posted reviews for those. On the other hand, I've had similar experiences comparing preamps, such as the Ayre K5 I own to my Cambridge Audio 851e; the latter has more of everything everywhere, top, bottom and midrange; but then, it is a much newer design, to be fair. The 851e is great value, in my opinion. I wish I'd had the Taurus Pre with me, but there are limits to how much I could carry overseas!

Some words which were written by Chris Martens about the AURALiC Vega DAC apply well in describing how the combination of the Chorale Preamp and AHB2's worked for me sonically:

the “Neve factor.” Neve recording consoles are known for pulling off a difficult but highly rewarding tightrope act of sorts; on the one hand, they deliver exceedingly high levels of transparency, clarity, and timbral purity, while on the other hand they preserve a naturally warm, organic, and lifelike sound.

This captures or summarizes very well what I believe I heard.

One thing I definitely can say, the AHB2's are real contenders, probably regardless of price, and are ridiculously high performance in a tiny and relatively affordable package.

What's a person to do?

Listen to gear- listen to as much as you can get your hands on, and do so at dealers when you can. Don't buy blind, and don't assume specs tell the whole story- but if the specs aren't good, well, there may well be issues based on that.

I'm leaning towards the notion these days that working S/N ratio is very important, along with low THD and intermodulation distortion. I'm convinced that the gain structure setups of most amplifiers and preamps are fundamentally wrong for optimizing that; a few in the market place do try to address that. It's not just the first watt- it's the first 100mW, the first watt, and the first 10 W. with preamps, most of the time if you're using a conventional gain power amp, you're listening in the low hundreds of millivolts- look for exceptional performance in that area.

But above all, find demanding music that you like and know well, perhaps have listened to at length on high end cans, and whenever you can, do home demos. That may tell you more than anything else.

I remember in the 90's I had a lot of trouble finding a line preamp that I could afford that sounded fairly transparent and was operationally OK. I still find it's not an easy task, partly I suppose because I insist on using balanced interconnections in all situations, and that's still not that popular for home systems. (the Taurus Pre has one balanced input, but the Cambridge 851e has three... big bonus in my book).

But the bottom line is, don't just focus all your efforts on a great speaker build- recognize that though speakers have their measured limitations compared with electronics, nonetheless a good build is quite sensitive to the differences between different source and amplification components- optimizing your build isn't finished just because the finish is dry on your cabinets... :W

**Steve Manning** · 22 March 2016, 09:44 Tuesday

Crap on a cracker 8O that's a lot of wires and do-dad's. Loving the Halcro amps though. :T

**benthe8track** · 22 March 2016, 10:17 Tuesday

Your friend must either be single or have the worlds most tolerant wife haha.
Looks like a crazy setup, looking forward to your impressions. What's with those cables? They look like space shuttle umbilicals.

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 10:40 Tuesday

Originally posted by benthe8track

Your friend must either be single or have the worlds most tolerant wife haha.
Looks like a crazy setup, looking forward to your impressions. What's with those cables? They look like space shuttle umbilicals.

His wife is a skilled pediatric doctor and music lover, and is something of a sanity check on his updates and tweaks- must pass her agreement, in general. She's the skeptic, and if she hears it, we figure it's not placebo effect.

Seite wurde nicht gefunden. - Schnerzinger

http://www.schnerzinger.com/home.php

If you start looking at the pictures I'm posting, you may see a lot of things that will be head scratchers. just consider them mundane applications of AREA 51 technology, which are uniformly applied in each configuration evaluation. Otherwise, I don't plan to discuss them. Scherzinger does cables but also does shielding and noise mitigation updates to equipment. That part will be discussed a bit briefly later on- the Chorale preamp in it's current form has the "Level 3" updates from Scherzinger. For those who hold no truck with these kinds of things, just consider it a different paint job, but on the inside, and don't worry about it. :W

**---k---** · 22 March 2016, 11:16 Tuesday

Looking forward to reading the whole story. I wish I could hear it for myself.

**JonMarsh** · 22 March 2016, 22:22 Tuesday

Updated the previous reserved spaces.

**tktran** · 22 March 2016, 23:18 Tuesday

The only thing DIY about this setup is connecting all the extra paraphernalia up, and not stuffing it up. What with the cable levitators, and voodoo devices behind each speaker. I'm suprised there isn't a small Buddha statue somewhere also.

Reminds of me on article:
http://www.kenrockwell.com/audio/audiophile.htm

**Juhazi** · 23 March 2016, 13:08 Wednesday

There is an inexpensive alternative to the TotalDAC - Soekris dac 1101 http://soekris.com/products/audio-pr...s-dac1101.html

**JonMarsh** · 23 March 2016, 14:13 Wednesday

Originally posted by Juhazi

There is an inexpensive alternative to the TotalDAC - Soekris dac 1101 http://soekris.com/products/audio-pr...s-dac1101.html

That's sort of interesting... but to really be an alternative to a TotalDAC-D1 it would need to have AES/EBU, TOSLINK, and S/PDIF inputs, a 10 msec RAM timing filter (to de-jitter), a remote control, etc. Have they shipped any yet, or are (as seems the case from the page) they just shipping this month? Any documentation about the filtering they're using and frequency response? And it's actually USB powered, so it wouldn't work with those "audiophile" USB cables that disable the power in order to lower EMI/EMC. SN number looks good... who knows, it might be one of the best sounding $650 DACs out there...

**augerpro** · 23 March 2016, 15:02 Wednesday

How would jitter be impacted if the source PC has all of the music files stored on an SSD? Also, I think J River has a feature to write then read from RAM. This is how mine is setup. Then a coax to a Marantz SR7001. Wondering what high value improvements could be made?

**wkhanna** · 23 March 2016, 15:51 Wednesday

whether PC or music app, or DAC, the amount of jitter reduction is partly dependent on the accuracy (quality) of the reference clock used, if i am not mistaken.....?

i know Dan (PewterTA) has gained significant improvements thru extensive OS formatting & modification of his (& mine) PC to give, as much as possible, uninterrupted priority to the delivery of the music data. otherwise the PC is constantly putting the process on hold to run background operations, thus imparting more jitter.

**JonMarsh** · 23 March 2016, 16:31 Wednesday

Btw, if I wasn't clear about that, I use a DCD-8 at home, too, with a rubidium frequency standard, for re-clocking the signal from my music server; I'll be switching to my Mutec with a Rubidium standard soon. If you're using USB for digital transmission that won't help- you're very much dependent on the clock quality in your DAC.

**Juhazi** · 24 March 2016, 04:40 Thursday

Soekris 1101 has FIFO buffering built-in. The dac board can be purchased only, this leaves room for diyers for various inputs and power possibilities!
"The dam1021 is a DAC module based on a discrete R-2R sign magnitude DAC design, with FPGA based FIFO buffering/reclocking and custom digital filters, < 1 ps jitter clock generator, with 28 bit resolution so there is headroom, oversampling up to 3.072 Mhz. Up to 24 bit / 384 Khz input from SPDIF, I2S and USB (via USB to I2S interface board), with isolation on the I2S interface. The board is very flexible, with digital volume control and filter parameters that can be downloaded. The board is fully firmware upgradable over a simple serial connection, which enables new features later on. For now we plan to add digital crossover filters soon."

http://soekris.com/products/audio-products/dam1021.html

About modding the 1021 board https://hifiduino.wordpress.com/2015...-modding-vref/

**JonMarsh** · 24 March 2016, 12:51 Thursday

Thanks for posting more. You know, the more I think about that, the more interesting it is.. especially for a mobile solution with my Macbook.

I've got a lot of irons in the fire right now financially, but maybe in a month or two I'll have to order one of these...

dam1021-01

https://web.archive.org/web/20161024033001/http://soekris.com:80/products/audio-products/consumer-line-dac1101/soekris-aps-dac1101.html

USB Powered DAC/Headamp Discrete R-2R Sign Magnitude DAC A small lightweight USB powered DAC, to deliver audio quality never experienced before on the road with a set of high end headphones. Or connect it to a matching high end music system at

**---k---** · 24 March 2016, 12:59 Thursday

I think I'm too cheep to allow myself to believe. ... but, I'd be willing to pay to sit in on a demonstration like this.

Jon,
Can we get any information on the speakers. Just curious.

**JonMarsh** · 24 March 2016, 15:07 Thursday

Hi Ryan,

These are Eggleston Works Savoy- they use a combination of Dynaudio and Morel drivers- the woofer section is actually an isobaric setup combined with aperiodic back loading; that is, there is a woofer behind each woofer, who's main function is to double the effective VAS, which lowers the Fb for a given size box- but it takes twice the power, so you're not getting something for nothing.

Looks sort of like this internally:

The mid bass and midrange drivers are in damped tunnels, a lot like the way Curt does the Statements. Rated frequency response is 21Hz to 30 kHz. In this particular room, I still think the low end is shelved down a bit, and there is a likely something of a null in the mid bass response that isn't a big problem on most recordings, but is very noticeable on "Two Princes" by Spindoctors. I'm going to do a spectral analysis of that song to see where the bass energy is just for fun...

**5th element** · 24 March 2016, 16:38 Thursday

I think you mean halves the effective vas there Jon, not doubles :W

**JonMarsh** · 25 March 2016, 08:37 Friday

Right! You've gotta keep an eye on me, I'm kidney stone impaired right now... I wouldn't really say I'm looking forward to surgery next Wednesay, but I AM looking forward to getting this behind me...

**5th element** · 25 March 2016, 16:45 Friday

Ouch that isn't good. I'm guessing that this isn't one of those cases where they can use ultrasound pulses to break it up?

**wkhanna** · 25 March 2016, 17:37 Friday

i believe Jon had the 'extraction' procedure put on hold when in Germany since the recovery period would delay his return.

the stint was a temporary treatment of the symptoms to allow him to return home asap.

**---k---** · 28 March 2016, 14:14 Monday

Originally posted by JonMarsh

Hi Ryan,

These are Eggleston Works Savoy- they use a combination of Dynaudio and Morel drivers- the woofer section is actually an isobaric setup combined with aperiodic back loading; .

Thanks. When talking about gear a this level, I think you have to know what the speakers are. I've seen too many odd audiophile speakers that have serious issues in the measurements that people try and correct by chasing high-end gear...

I googled them and found they're roughly $45,000 speakers. Sound right? I couldn't find any measurements. Do you have any? I'm guessing if he is a friend of yours they are well designed, reasonably flat speakers? The configuration is somewhat unusual. I see some logic, but it also seems like something that would stand-out in a Sterophile article as a selling point. I was somewhat surprised to see the mid-range diameter is roughly the same as the mid-bass. Any thoughts on the speakers and how they compare to the Ardents?

**JonMarsh** · 28 March 2016, 19:54 Monday

Believe it or not, the Savoy is actually a scaled down version of the Eggleston Ivy, which was developed in cooperation with Robert Ludwig as a studio mastering monitor. I think it is a very capable speaker, but sensitive to room position and size, as any direct radiator is. I sent my friend a PDF of the Cardas room setup guide recently; one of the issues about his setup is that it is actually across the narrow dimension of the living room/dining room, which is prone to more issues. In fact, I think I identified a specific area between 100 and 200 Hz for which the reflected back wave as well as the forward wave reflection from the rear wall of the listener are likely nulling a fair amount. This really shows up in some kinds of popular music, such as the Spindoctor's cut "Two Princes. I'll post spectrographs to highlight this.

In our family room, the Ardents don't have issues in this range - and given that the family room "space" extends backwards through the dining room and even through a large open threshold to the front living room, the front to back depth may be upwards of 80 feet.

Re the Ardents, well, they're a lot smaller, but they certainly hold their own- that 6640 is a heck of a tweeter, the C79 is a heck of a midrange, and the Wavcors do amazing things in an enclosure that size.

Now, the more "reasonable" comparison would be against the Isiris, or as my friend calls them, the "California Isis". With the standard closed box tuning of the Isiris, versus the Savoy's Isobaric a periodic turning, the Savoys probably have an edge in flatness/extension below 40 or 35 Hz. (With the planned LF upgrade via Hypex DS8.0 for the Isiris, that will go away). My friend has heard them at length, and agrees that the diamond tweeter is more extended and focused, and quite noticeably so the more you get off axis. He's fairly impressed with them, and is very curious that I'm planning on upgrading them. Let's keep in mind that the "real" Isis sells for $72K per pair. Building the homemade ones with LBL cabinets was certainly a somewhat audacious project for DIY, and the BOM cost at almost $10K shows it. But the return is hard to argue with, from my perspective.

What I really like about the Ardent is that it does so many things almost as well, though not quite as loud, in a package that costs half as much, and is a lot easier on your living room decor! They or something similar might be a lot better choice (if available!) for my friend in Munich, but in comparison the Avalon Indra isn't nearly the speaker at the frequency extremes (ceramic Accuton tweeter, Eton 7" woofers with so-so Xmax).

**JonMarsh** · 28 March 2016, 20:00 Monday

Originally posted by 5th element

Ouch that isn't good. I'm guessing that this isn't one of those cases where they can use ultrasound pulses to break it up?

They can do that when the stones are in the Kidney, but once they've moved into the urethral duct, that technique is a no-go.

**JonMarsh** · 28 March 2016, 21:02 Monday

Now, spectral difference in content- these are some peak hold graphs of two different songs, one Shelby Lynn's "Just a little Lovin" for about half the first verse, and the same amount roughly for the Spin Doctor's "Two Princes".

Shelby Lynn

Spin Doctors

Keep in mind that each vertical division is 12 dB, which is a LOT of difference in energy. "Two Princes" has a lot focused in the 100Hz to 200Hz band, and this is where my sense was that there were room issues; I really doubt there were any driver issues at that point!

**Juhazi** · 29 March 2016, 01:46 Tuesday

A photo from the backside of Eggleston. Look at vents/tunnels! I am a bit worried about MTM spacing too.
Woofers' "pressure release" means aperiodic? http://www.soundandvision.com/conten...QgAlliB6jL5.97

Astra Suite High-End Audio Distribution

https://web.archive.org/web/20161014004745/http://www.astrasuite.com/

**JonMarsh** · 29 March 2016, 08:37 Tuesday

Yes- it's aperiodic resistive loading for the isobaric woofer setup.

The midrange and mid woofers use a damped tunnel loading, very much like Curt Campbell's Statements, from what I can tell.

The IVY is very similar, but has three isobaric woofer pairs per cabinet, and two midrange plus two mid woofer drivers. I.E., quite a bit taller!

The Savoy you pictured here appears to be a Savoy signature, with the aluminum side plates. The Andra and Andra II are other derivatives of this design- the original Andra had a significant "Booboo" in the crossover, design, leading to a power region suck out at 3kHz (JA caught this in his measurements at Stereophile), which was fixed in the Andra II. I hope they did something for the owners of the original.

**Carl V** · 29 March 2016, 09:02 Tuesday

the original Andra had a significant "Booboo" in the crossover, design, leading to a power region suck out at 3kHz (JA caught this in his measurements at Stereophile), which was fixed in the Andra II

amazing....when you consider how many eyes & ears were involved with it's initial development
and marketing and sales. OOOpps

**wkhanna** · 29 March 2016, 09:09 Tuesday

Originally posted by JonMarsh

They can do that when the stones are in the Kidney, but once they've moved into the urethral duct, that technique is a no-go.

OT....just wishing you well tomorrow....

Munich Report Part One: DIY support for electronics, and some listening configuration

Munich Report Part One: DIY support for electronics, and some listening configuration

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