Recommend midrange and tweeter for dual 7" illuminator speaker

[kabeer_g]

All,
I have had this design in mind for almost 5 years but thinking of pulling the trigger now.

Here are the broad parameters:
1. Size: Roughly speaking 40" tall, 9" to 10" wide and 14" to 15" deep (so about 80 - 90 liters)
2. Woofers: Dual 7" Scanspeak illuminators

In terms of listening:
1. Consumption is 50% music and movies
2. Music is Jazz/ Classic Rock/ R&B and Indian music (Sufi music)
4. Music source is entirely streaming - Spotify premium or a couple of apps that stream Indian music at 320kbps
5. Denon x4200 receiver and funk 18.0c subwoofer

I prefer sound that's got tight & punchy bass but still on the warm/neutral sound. Given that a lot of the Indian music is not recorded very well, speakers that are too analytical can get fatiguing. I had really enjoyed combo of Bryston Amp and Dynaudio C1.

I would like to get this group's recommendations on Midrange and tweeters:

Tweeter: While my mind is on RAAL 70-10, I am wondering if a Beryllium would fit my needs better. If so, which one would you recommend? 3 Berylliums I have looked at are:
a. ScanSpeak D2908/7140 Beryllium Dome Revelator
b. Scanspeak Illuminator D3004/6640-00 1" Tweeter Beryllium Dome
c. TRANSDUCER LAB N28BE


Mid-range: This is where the field is wide open and I have many candidates:
a. Accuton: 2" Ceeramic dome (C50-8-044) or 5" ceramic dome (C90-6-079) or 5" Cell (C90-6-724)
b. Audiotechnology 15H52 or 18H52
c. Scanspeak 18M-4631 or new 18M-8631 (troelsgravesen called it at par with his favourite 18H52)
d. Eton magnesium cone ("Arcosia" 4-318)


Thanks for your feedback.

[fish fingers]

alu cone Illuminators? In which case the 5" Cell's would be my choice(in black, direct from Accuton)

[kabeer_g]

alu cone Illuminators? In which case the 5" Cell's would be my choice(in black, direct from Accuton)

Haven't decided yet between paper cone and alu cone. Looking for a recommendation given what I am looking for.

[fish fingers]

Different material cones, different sonic signature and dependant on your source components.
Another option if you like a warmer sound ie paper cones is to ask Madisound if they could modify the B741 crossover to swap-in the scan Be.

[cochinada]

I would also consider the Satori line from SB Acoustics. From what I've seen and read their midrange is superb with incredible low distortion and you won't need to rob a bank to buy them. Notwithstanding their tweeters are also very good and there is also a Beryllium one.

[Matt M]

To be honest, both the way you approach tweeter and midrange choice strongly hints at the need to ask a few questions first:

- what is your current level of experience?
- what actually is the design your had in mind for 5 years? You mention a range of midrange drivers between two and seven inches. That's a big "huh?" from a technical perspective, to say the least.
- what drivers and speakers have you had experience with? Which ones did you prefer? What did work out in your listening room, what didn't?

I second the suggestion of taking a look at the PBN B741. That is the closest match to what you are looking for: dual 18WU woofers, Scanspeak Be tweeter and a sensible choice of midrange. Even if you are set on doing a custom design, do the the B741 and iterate from there. Your chances of success will be significantly higher than rolling out something from scratch. My 5 cents.

- Matt

[kabeer_g]

All,

Thank you for your feedback.

1. I will look at PBN B741
2. I don't have any experience building myself but have worked with a few of the well known speaker designers who have been doing it for 10+ years. While I am going to get their opinion, I always benefit from getting opinion on these forums from people who know their stuff.
3. One reason I like B741 is because even though I will work with someone who has probably built 100s of different cross-overs, I firmly believe getting a speaker right takes many iterations, 100s of hours of testing to get the combo of drivers, enclosures, cross-overs and other variables right. So the person isn't going to be able to do that level of refinement for a one-off piece. Where if it is an existing design, hopefully the designer has gone through that pain and testing. So any other recommendations would be helpful. Key criteria being:

1. Speaker footprint - height 40", width 10" and depth 15"
2. Sound that's warm/ neutral while still punchy and anything but muddy
3. Top notch drivers from Scanspeak/ Accuton/ RAAL - call it irrational fascination

[Matt M]

Okay, that makes sense to me.

What's good about the 12mu midrange of the b741 is that it doesn't limit you in the choice of alternative tweeters. At least in terms of crossover point the RAAL would work fine with the 12mu.

If you extent your requirements to dual-8" woofers and wavecor as a brand, there are still Jon's Wavecor Ardents as an option. Cabinet dimensions are still close to what you posted. Would that work for you?

Given your brand preferences, Selah Audio might also be worth checking out:

http://www.selahaudio.com/kits/

[BobEllis]

Since your tweeter and midrange budget seems to be in the right ballpark, why not join the Wavecor Ardent club as Matt suggested. You won't be disappointed. Probably even if you start out with pedestrian crossover components externally and upgrade to the good stuff as budget permits. The footprint difference is minimal - you'll be an inch or two bigger than your stated goal. And you get the extra kick that a pair of 8" woofers can provide - look at the extra Sd.

RenRon's "Mid Priced Ardent" (12mu mid) would be a good option as well to save a few bucks at the cost of just a smidgen of ultimate performance. That according to the HRH Jon Marsh, designer of both.

Using either of these designs you'd miss the experience of measuring a million times to get consistent results, then adjusting another couple million more times to make sure the measurements are meaningful and you are interpreting them properly. The cabinet work isn't as hard as it looks, but somewhere in the thread Jon mentioned that the performance penalty for a rectangular baffle leaning back at the appropriate angle would also be minimal. Audible to Jon, yes. To most, probably not without a direct comparison. The only drawback is that they need a lot of clean power to be their best. That said, in a quiet environment they give me great pleasure listening driven by a Pass AJ clone at roughly 30W.

[kabeer_g]

Bob & Matt - thank you for recommending ardent. I like it. Also looks better than B741 . Does anyone have experience with both or have thoughts on the relative performance?

Rick is certainly someone I have spoken to in the past and one of the potential partners on this.

Any other design in the same footprint? What if budget was not a constraint (obviously performance and some measure of value even in this price point is )?

[BobEllis]

Having not heard the B741, I'll say that the Ardent is better by a good margin. Of course Avalon's line has changed, and I cannot remember the name of the model Jon targeted for this design. It retailed for around $20K. Unfortunately, Jon missed his performance target high, and the Ardents performance is a lot closer to the then $60K TIME (Distortion, bass extension and output capability, frequency response, dispersion, tonality). He'll be modest and say it was 45K, but that was the price in English Pounds, not USD.

With the Ardent, changes between amps and DACs that had been subtle on a Seas Excel based speaker become patently obvious. Even to the half of the household that just wants to hear some music and owned a BOSE Wave Radio when I moved in. As any member of the club will tell you, with a set of Ardents in the room you will suddenly feel the urge to upgrade the rest of your system to match. The performance increase between the analog outputs of my Oppo BDP-103 and Schiit ModiMB was huge. I had hopes that when I shelled out for a Cambridge 851D I'd hear some improvement. Almost again as much improvement in low level detail and natural sound as the Schiit had been. Amp swapping is also revealing.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/the...-hifi-plus-71/ Go find a set at a high end store to get an idea what you'll be building.

[kabeer_g]

Having not heard the B741, I'll say that the Ardent is better by a good margin. Of course Avalon's line has changed, and I cannot remember the name of the model Jon targeted for this design. It retailed for around $20K. Unfortunately, Jon missed his performance target high, and the Ardents performance is a lot closer to the then $60K TIME (Distortion, bass extension and output capability, frequency response, dispersion, tonality). He'll be modest and say it was 45K, but that was the price in English Pounds, not USD.

With the Ardent, changes between amps and DACs that had been subtle on a Seas Excel based speaker become patently obvious. Even to the half of the household that just wants to hear some music and owned a BOSE Wave Radio when I moved in. As any member of the club will tell you, with a set of Ardents in the room you will suddenly feel the urge to upgrade the rest of your system to match. The performance increase between the analog outputs of my Oppo BDP-103 and Schiit ModiMB was huge. I had hopes that when I shelled out for a Cambridge 851D I'd hear some improvement. Almost again as much improvement in low level detail and natural sound as the Schiit had been. Amp swapping is also revealing.

http://www.hifiplus.com/articles/the...-hifi-plus-71/ Go find a set at a high end store to get an idea what you'll be building.

Thank you so much. Ardent is sounding awesome.

While I found a reference thread from Jon, it looks incomplete. Did I miss a thread with cleaned up summary of the final product and the build guide?

[BobEllis]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...light=realized - Complete with cabinet part drawings

The schematic for the currently available SW223BD02 woofer is http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post620618

Here is RenRon's build thread

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php?42798-Wavecor-Ardent-Mid-Priced-Build&highlight=mid+price+ardent

[kabeer_g]

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...light=realized - Complete with cabinet part drawings

The schematic for the currently available SW223BD02 woofer is http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...l=1#post620618

Here is RenRon's build thread

http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthr...d+price+ardent

Thanks Bob. I found your thread to. Great build.

Seems both you and Ron modified the original ardent and swapped out midrange and tweeter. If I go this way, keen to stick with the original design, with the exception of neeer version of SW223BD01, which is SW223BD02.

Seems accuton C90-6-079 is still available though I have heard it would soon be discontinued and only cell drivers would be available. I had my eyes on both this midrange and Scandpeak D3004/6640 tweeter. So it works well.

Now I just need to make my mind up and then find an experienced builder

[Matt M]

Unfortunately, I haven't listened to either, but I studied both, and I am biased towards the Ardents for several reasons.

PBN B741:
+ renowned commercial designer
- little background information on the design available. Reviews are scarce.
+ higher sensivity (~90dB)
- impedance-minimum of 2.8 ohm around 600. My guess: energy-storage in the mid-filter.
- ported cabinet (IMO a negative).
+ ... but more tuning options for the low end.

Wavecor Ardent:
+ renowned non-commercial designer.
+ one of the most extended, transparent and well-documented design processes I know of.
+ sealed near-qtc(0.5) design. Resulting roll-off promises tighter and more extended low-end performance.
+ excellent dispersion behavior.
+ easy to drive impedance load.
- low sensivity (~83 dB if I remember correctly). Only a problem for low-power tube amps.
- SW223BD01 is OEM only now, still available here and there, but becomes harder to source.
- c90-6-079 officially marked as discontinued (however, predicted to still be around for some more time).

[Face]

Thanks Bob. I found your thread to. Great build.

Seems both you and Ron modified the original ardent and swapped out midrange and tweeter. If I go this way, keen to stick with the original design, with the exception of neeer version of SW223BD01, which is SW223BD02.

Seems accuton C90-6-079 is still available though I have heard it would soon be discontinued and only cell drivers would be available. I had my eyes on both this midrange and Scandpeak D3004/6640 tweeter. So it works well.

Now I just need to make my mind up and then find an experienced builder

I may have a spare pair of C90s that are like new.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[BobEllis]

I changed only the woofer because the original is no longer available. We thought the crossover changes would be simple adjustments to mid and tweeter padding resistors, but these interacted with the frequency response. The crossover I linked to is the latest and greatest unless you can find a set of SW223BD01s somewhere.

There is a typo in the original post, the mid has always been the C90-6-79. In the original post Jon had the -6 as -9 but confirmed it was actually the -6, just never got around to making the change. A man with 439 pounds of stuff to do and a 5 pound bag, you know how that goes.

[kabeer_g]

MattM - thanks a lot for your perspective.

Bob, thanks for all your guidance. And thank you for pointing me in the direction of Ardent. In terms of size, driver quality & waf it comes super close to what I was looking for. Also it seems SW223BD01 maybe available as an oem product and to the extent I request an oem to build ardent for me, hopefully he can procure it. Otherwise d02 is there.

[BobEllis]

You're welcome of course.

The -01 gains 2 dB sensitivity and little else. OEM only probably means lots of 100 or more. Got 25 friends who want to build a set of Ardents? Good power is relatively cheap these days. A couple of nCore monos will do nicely.

[bvbellomo]

I was convinced Raal was the way to go as everything high end I heard used ribbons. I ended up with ss 9700s as the Raals were out of budget at the time, and after getting the crossover and zobels right, I was seriously impressed. I hit a redesign do to changing woofers and decided to upgrade to Beryllium. I was somewhat disappointed, not that it wasn't worth the money, but just not as big an improvement as I expected. So the Raals are great, but need a high crossover, don't have the same dispersion pattern as your mid/woofer and more potential for expensive repair. Beryllium is just as good to my ears without these problems. The ss9700 is a small step down, and probably other mid priced ss's and tl's are similar. To my ears, the more popular sub $50 budget tweeters are a huge step down, then another big step down to low end big brand commercial 2 ways (any finished speaker you can buy retail under $100), and an even bigger step down to whatever is built into a super thin flat screen tv. Ymmv

[Face]

I like the OEM and large RAAL tweeters. But if you have a reflective room, you may want something with narrower dispersion, such as one of SS's Be domes. Outside of the commercial realm, the only Be tweeter I've heard is the D3004/6040-10, and it's currently my favorite dome.

Sent from my SM-G935V using Tapatalk

[kabeer_g]

Thank you all for your inputs. While I am going to do research for a few more weeks, Wavecore Ardent is no at the top of my list.

Also if you have suggestions on professional speaker makers who might be able to build high quality Ardent for me, could you please make a recommendation? I am going to ask Rick Craig and Lee Taylor@ Taylor speakers to begin with.

[kabeer_g]

All

I think I might have to give up on Ardent. The cabinet construction is so complex that a couple of speaker makers I contacted are hesitant to take it on.

BTW is the front waffle 3 pieces laminated together - what are the materials for those 3 (alternatively if there is a summary of it in an existing thread, just point to it)

Any other recommendation for an existing design? I think I am quite keen on using the same accuron mid. For tweeter I could use 6640 Be or RAAL. For woofers any High end 7"-8" woofers. Ardent size is the upper end I terms of WAF.

[BobEllis]

Actually, the baffle is four layers - as drawn 2 layers of LBL, 2 of BB ply. I used 4 layers of LBL.

Any cabinet maker worthy of the name can make these cabinets. If you contacted speaker builders, they are probably leery of having their name attached to someone else's design, especially unheard. If I can do it on a saw that weighs the same as the cabinet on non level ground, any cabinet shop should be able to do it. It's a freaking braced box with tilted ends. The facets look hard, but rough cut with a handsaw and (power) plane to the final line and the job is done in less time than it takes to make the taper jig Jon used.

Check with cabinet shops if you don't want to build them yourself. Then all you'd have to do is wire up a "simple" crossover.


Finish veneering is a challenge, but you could always paint or follow the methods used by others. I liked the way the vacuum press worked, but it's another tool investment.

[Steve Manning]

All

I think I might have to give up on Ardent. The cabinet construction is so complex that a couple of speaker makers I contacted are hesitant to take it on.

BTW is the front waffle 3 pieces laminated together - what are the materials for those 3 (alternatively if there is a summary of it in an existing thread, just point to it)

Any other recommendation for an existing design? I think I am quite keen on using the same accuron mid. For tweeter I could use 6640 Be or RAAL. For woofers any High end 7"-8" woofers. Ardent size is the upper end I terms of WAF.

Where are you located out of curiosity?

[kabeer_g]

Washington DC

[dar47]

ooh, Steve that's close you should make 2 sets, haha

[Matt M]

Any other recommendation for an existing design? I think I am quite keen on using the same accuron mid. For tweeter I could use 6640 Be or RAAL. For woofers any High end 7"-8" woofers. Ardent size is the upper end I terms of WAF.

While I still believe the Ardents to be the most promising solution to you, there are alternatives worth considering:

Salk Sound (near Detroit):

https://salksound.com

Selah Audio (Garner, NC, 27529)

http://www.selahaudio.com/

Salk Sound sells custom finished speakers. I find the the prices reasonable. When you go for a full-fledged pair of Ardents and pay a cabinet maker you are in the same ball-park, i guess. Salk has both RAAL And Be versions of their soundscape speakers. That might be worth taking a look at.Selah sells both kits and finished speakers. For any solution be it Ardents or one of the others, having the option to listen before buying is a great plus!

To my knowledge, there are not too many Accuton C90-6-079 DIY-builds out there. AFAIK, there are Tony Gee's Soup (8" Eton woofer), Marc Heijliger's Milestones (8" Accuton) and of course the Original Ardents (dual-Seas ER18RNX) and the Wavecor Ardents. Not saying anything about relative performance here. :W
Also, I know three builds using the newer C90 cell driver: Hobby Hifi Celline (German DIY magazine), Hobby Hifi Audimax 2 (dual-mids, dual wavecor 7" woofers) and the Xen Speaker (8" Accuton woofer). I believe the Celline could be recommended. IMO Speakerheaven (custom speakers, Germany) built a very elegant variant of this design:

http://www.speakerheaven.de/fertiglautsprecher/celline.html

So, there are not really many alternatives. One of the reasons, I am currently doing my own c79 build using dual 5" woofers. More than enough output for my place and taste. But still a long way to go:


- Matt

[kabeer_g]

Matt, that's awesome info.

Having done the research for the last few days, doesn't seem to be a cost effective way of getting Ardent built from a cabinet maker.

Best bet seems to be Selah - Rick has a model called Estremo which uses dual 7" illuminator as a base and he has done variants with many different mids and tweeters. Seems he could do a variant with C90 mid and 6640 Be tweeter. That seems to be the safest bet.

On a seperate note, has anyone listened to Madisound Nada. A buddy of mine who's doing this with me is considering them.

[kabeer_g]

While I still believe the Ardents to be the most promising solution to you, there are alternatives worth considering:

Salk Sound (near Detroit):

https://salksound.com

Selah Audio (Garner, NC, 27529)

http://www.selahaudio.com/

Salk Sound sells custom finished speakers. I find the the prices reasonable. When you go for a full-fledged pair of Ardents and pay a cabinet maker you are in the same ball-park, i guess. Salk has both RAAL And Be versions of their soundscape speakers. That might be worth taking a look at.Selah sells both kits and finished speakers. For any solution be it Ardents or one of the others, having the option to listen before buying is a great plus!

To my knowledge, there are not too many Accuton C90-6-079 DIY-builds out there. AFAIK, there are Tony Gee's Soup (8" Eton woofer), Marc Heijliger's Milestones (8" Accuton) and of course the Original Ardents (dual-Seas ER18RNX) and the Wavecor Ardents. Not saying anything about relative performance here. :W
Also, I know three builds using the newer C90 cell driver: Hobby Hifi Celline (German DIY magazine), Hobby Hifi Audimax 2 (dual-mids, dual wavecor 7" woofers) and the Xen Speaker (8" Accuton woofer). I believe the Celline could be recommended. IMO Speakerheaven (custom speakers, Germany) built a very elegant variant of this design:

http://www.speakerheaven.de/fertiglautsprecher/celline.html

So, there are not really many alternatives. One of the reasons, I am currently doing my own c79 build using dual 5" woofers. More than enough output for my place and taste. But still a long way to go:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]27525[/ATTACH]

- Matt

That speakerhaven website is pure speaker porn

[Steve Manning]

ooh, Steve that's close you should make 2 sets, haha

It's always better in two's .....

[Steve Manning]

Washington DC

PM me and we can chat.

[Matt M]

@Nada:
Still haven't heard it, some people I known did, and I read a few things about it.

It is an unusually well received speaker in Germany. There it is some criticism but it is mostly in the form of "My product is a tiny bit better." :roll:
The Nada was originally designed by Christian Ganther of Klang+Ton DIY magazine. And that is most likely the version sold through Madisound. There is a separate design by AOS, who is also one of / or the one German Scanspeak distributor. The AOS version is ported and has a slightly different crossover.

Then there is a third version sold through Quint Audio. During a DIY meet in Quint Audio's listening room most attendees seemed to prefer the Quint version of the NADA over the original one. Not really fair because the Quint version was most likely voiced in that show room, nevertheless there seemed to be a clear bias.
From K+T measurements I would expect the Nada to be the more exciting and playful speaker. There is a small BBC-dip and a slightly elevated brilliance range. I am not really sure if the latter one is a good idea. They did a similar thing in their speaker "Bijou" which I had build and eventually tuned down quite a bit in that region.
The quint audio appears to be the the more neutral variant.
I guess it is a matter of taste. If the original Nada doesn't cut it, one could probably purchase crossover plans from Quint or AOS to try a different variant. The basic choice of drivers and cabinet is great IMO. If you count Tony Gee's Orphelia II (using the 8-ohm driver) there a four variants using that driver combination. I think there is good reason for it.

That speakerhaven website is pure speaker porn

Yep, inspiring stuff! ;x(

[kabeer_g]

@Nada:
Still haven't heard it, some people I known did, and I read a few things about it.

It is an unusually well received speaker in Germany. There it is some criticism but it is mostly in the form of "My product is a tiny bit better." :roll:
The Nada was originally designed by Christian Ganther of Klang+Ton DIY magazine. And that is most likely the version sold through Madisound. There is a separate design by AOS, who is also one of / or the one German Scanspeak distributor. The AOS version is ported and has a slightly different crossover.

Then there is a thirst version sold through Quint Audio. During a DIY meet in Quint Audio's listening room most attendees seemed to prefer the Quint version of the NADA over the original one. Not really fair because the Quint version was most likely voiced in that show room, nevertheless there seemed to be a clear bias.
From K+T measurements I would expect the Nada to be the more exciting and playful speaker. There is a small BBC-dip and a slightly elevated brilliance range. I am not really sure if the latter one is a good idea. They did a similar thing in their speaker "Bijou" which I had build and eventually tuned down quite a bit in that region.
The quint audio appears to be the the more neutral variant.
I guess it is a matter of taste. If the original Nada doesn't cut it, one could probably purchase crossover plans from Quint or AOS to try a different variant. The basic choice of drivers and cabinet is great IMO. If you count Tony Gee's Orphelia II (using the 8-ohm driver) there a four variants using that driver combination. I think there is good reason for it.


Yep, inspiring stuff! ;x(

How do you know so much
😲

[Matt M]

In general: by spending an embarrassing amount of time reading related forums, websites, magazines and books.
Regarding the Nada, I am interested in the design myself, so I did a bit more research on this one.

[kabeer_g]

In general: by spending an embarrassing amount of time reading related forums, websites, magazines and books.
Regarding the Nada, I am interested in the design myself, so I did a bit more research on this one.

Matt, do you have any view on sound of Celline vs 6.0 TSI vs. 5.0 EB?

In terms of sound, copy pasting again what I like:

In terms of listening:
1. Consumption is 50% music and movies
2. Music is Jazz/ Classic Rock/ R&B and Indian music (Sufi music)
4. Music source is entirely streaming - Spotify premium or a couple of apps that stream Indian music at 320kbps
5. Denon x4200 receiver and funk 18.0c subwoofer

I prefer sound that's got tight & punchy bass but still on the warm/neutral sound. e.g. I have MTM bookshelves with Revelator 5.5" and Aircirc tweeter and in music with brass instruments (e.g. trumpet) I have to reduce the volume little bit as otherwise it can sound a little unsoothing to my ears. Given that a lot of the Indian music is not recorded very well, speakers that are too analytical can get fatiguing. I had really enjoyed combo of Bryston Amp and Dynaudio C1.


I have sent them an email too.

[kabeer_g]

PM me and we can chat.

Steve will do. My situation is a little complicated at the moment. I am working on an assignment in Sydney, AU and in the next 3 months looking to get back to DC though work situation hasn't sorted out yet and there is a 30% chance that return gets delayed by 6-9 months.

[Steve Manning]

Steve will do. My situation is a little complicated at the moment. I am working on an assignment in Sydney, AU and in the next 3 months looking to get back to DC though work situation hasn't sorted out yet and there is a 30% chance that return gets delayed by 6-9 months.

No problem ...... I understand complicated. I'm in between jobs at the moment and don't have a good feel for my up coming schedule either. Let me know when you know what's going on, I might be able to help you out.

[Steve Manning]

Duplicate removed

[Matt M]

Matt, do you have any view on sound of Celline vs 6.0 TSI vs. 5.0 EB?

Celline:
What I know is taken from the original article in Hobby & Hifi magazine. What I don't know is how much Speaker Heaven did change in their design. They state 3.8 ohms minimum which is a lot lower than the HH measurements. That makes me a bit curious. I appreciate that they chose the older Accuton tweeter over the new Cell one. This older Accuton tweeter seems to have its fans (although measurements don't let it appear to be special). I have mixed feelings about the cell mid drviers. The c79 is a dedicated midrange range, the c90 has more midwoofer capability - it can can be crossover at a lower point which has been done in the Celline. That might be a good thing. On the other hand, there appears to be a bias toward the c79 in certain configurations. However, that issue is beyond my experience to dissect further. For my own build I choose to go with the C79, which was in part gut feeling, I have to admit.

Network 5.0 EB
This one would be the closest match to the Wavecor Ardents (dual 8" woofers, c79 midrange). I would guess that the Wavecor Ardents measure a lot better in the midrange in terms of off-axis-performance (it doesn't get any better) and beat the Accuton tweeter of the Network 5.0 in terms of distortion. If the EB version is a closed cabinet that would make them more comparable in terms of low end performance. Otherwise the BR version appears to be a ported cabinet which extends to 28Hz allegedly. Might make a subwoofer obsolete but not as 'tight' as the CB version. The Network 5.0 is a lot more sensitive (88dB) and still easy to drive (4.1 ohms minimum). It's got the c79 midrange, which is a plus IMO. In terms of voicing, the Network 5.0 might be more suitable to your needs. In a K+T review of the Network30 anniversary edition, they described the speaker as warm and non-fatiguing. The measurements showed a decline in SPL from 88 dB at 500 Hz to 85 dB at 5kHZ. That might be what you are looking for in terms of less-fatiguing treble. If the Network 5.0 is voiced similarly (which is likely due to sensivity issues), and you pair that with dual 8" woofers in closed cabinets, you might get that warm-but-tight you're looking far. But that's a lot of conjecture, I admit.

Network 6.0 TSI (7 inch)
I am not certain what to write about this one. It might have the expensive c173 variant Jon Marsh used in the Isiris, which would be nice. Midrange dispersion will be different from 5" midrange. My experience is that 2,5 ways need a lot of distance to the walls to sound balanced because they usually imply a high level of baffle step compensation.

The Network 5.0 could be an option - if you have the funds and the space to place them and you enjoy the idea of having these in your room. But I would definitely try to get some more information about the design. My second bet would then be the celline.

A caveat: directivity plays a major role in tweeter perception. When distortion is not a problem any more, the perception of a tweeters sound depends a lot on directivity (at least in a reasonably reverberant room). Adjusting tweeter level can help, but only so much before things do not sound natural any more. High directivity systems (e.g. waveguided ones, ring radiator tweeters) tend to be less fatiguing but also less hard & punchy. The other end is marked by wide dispersion systems, were the Accuton c12 tweeter belongs to (or the SB26ADC I am using). The SS 6640 Be is still wide-disperson, but not as pronounced as my other examples. From what I remember it should be comparable to your Aircirc. So that might be a problem (hard to say from afar), and you would be better off with a ring radiator or waveguide solution. Do you have listening experience with such systems?

Your home listening situation is also important: do you have carpet or tiles? Lots of furniture and stuff? What are the dimensions of your room? Do you have an open floor plan or do you listen with doors closed? Dry wall or concrete? How far from the wall (speaker front to back wall) will the speakers be placed? What is the distance to the room corners? You might want to check these specs with speaker heaven, too. They should have the experience what has worked out for their customers and what didn't.

- Matt

[kabeer_g]

Thanks Matt. 5.0 did appeal to me too.

On a seperate note, wondering if anyone had an opinion on 6640 Beryllium tweeter vs 1" cell tweeter from Accuton. I believe it's C25.

[fish fingers]

You shd also look at TLab tweets, if you dont mind the size of the faceplates. V flat response

Btw I thought TLab were bringing out mid domes? That was some time ago so I wondered what happened with that.