My Wavecor Ardent with center build

[Renron]

TEK,
Thank you for the updates and the pictures, I can see where you clipped the corner of the box, it makes it look faster!
Unless you bevel (45*) the corners of the MDF, you will still have the same problem of telegraphing the sub-structure to the veneer. Why not just a smooth THIN coat of epoxy over the plywood endgrain and joints?

For those who have used the Epoxy method, what brand / type of epoxy did you use? and what lessons did you learn? What would you do differently, or what worked very well?
Ron

[TEK]

The MDF edges is 3mm compared to 8cm for the current edges, sonfor the MDF edges the hope/idea is that any phatagrafing will be so little that it does not show.
The epoxy solution is a possibility and if I had psa backed veener I would most likely gone for that.
But with raw veneer and cold press (as I'm planning to do) I dont know a glue that will work.

[TEK]

Phu...

Then both the baffles is done. No mistakes (that could not be hidden as a planned action) was made - and I now have two baffles that are ready to be glued on :dancenana:
Have to say that I'm quite happy that I "decided" to go with 50 degree angel on the baffel instead of 40 degree as stated in the original drawing :W

This is how it looks now (the baffel is just mounted on - not glued yet).





Could anyone give me some pointers about how much work I should do on the inside of the speaker before I glue on the baffle?
What need to be done before the baffle is glued on?

[dar47]

You need to put some poly fill up behind the mid chamber. You need to run wiring for the mid and tweet section. I would plan my terminals are yours long enough to go through the back or do you need to take some material off where the terminals are going to be mounted through the back? Oh ya you may as well line your mid chamber as that would be hard to do after.

[TEK]

Thanks dar47.
I have just glued on the baffle on the first speaker.
I have run the wires and the mid-chamber has been lined with 2 layers, 1 cm each, damping mat for the side walls and one layer for the rear wall. Behind the damping mat I have some really heavy stuff. Butimex or something - not sure what it is called. That was mounted quite a long time back.
This should be kind-of the same as jon's lead + 16mm heavy damping filt - at least I hope so...

I also added some lamp wool behind the mid chamber. Filling the mid chamber as well as the bass chambers with lamp wool will be done just before mounting the drivers.

The binding posts will be mounted in the base - inspired by the avalon diamond solution - but of course without the bass port ;-)



I do not know what binding posts to use yet.

I will take some pictures when doing the second speaker - the phone was out of power, so no pictures from this session...

[Carl V]

The binding posts will be mounted in the base - inspired by the avalon diamond solution - but of course without the bass port ;-)

that is certainly neat and stealthy....but not very convenient. And limits you to Spades.

Regardless, good luck. You do nice work.

[TEK]

Hmm, might be that I chicken out and go for a combination of these instead:

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-sbpp-bk-binding-post-plate-black-anodized--091-602

http://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-bpfi-ni-fully-insulated-binding-post-pair-nickel--091-632

We'll see. It's something that will be ordered with the crossover parts - will have to do some price checking before final decition is made about where to buy, but it will be quite soon I think.

[Renron]

binding posts

I purchased a dozen of these binding post cups. I take the posts out of the El Cheapo plastic and use them by themselves. They are quite good and easy to work with. I've broken one by tightening it too much, but upon inspection it was a fault in the metal casting. The hole for bare wire attachment is large enough for a 10 gauge wire, or a banana plug in the end. The threads are short but if mounting on a base plate of aluminum or plastic it looks professional.
Not trying to be cheap, but the quality is there if you can live with the short threads.
$2.50 pair, one red /one black

http://www.parts-express.com/round-4-1-2-speaker-terminal-cup-with-insulated-banana-binding-posts--269-103

Ron

[TEK]

Thanks for the tips Renon - I'll look into that :-)

Now, I'm starting to figure out where to order the crossover parts - but I do need some help here.
Crossover drawing from the reference thread:



The crossover says that L2 and L5 are "400 uH 0.25 Ohm" and "400 uH 0.26 Ohm"
Dar47 was using this part: https://www.parts-express.com/erse-0...-coil--266-814
It has 0,28 Ohms resistance.

From the source I'm looking at they have the option between

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1988-039mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html

or this and tell them to take it down to exactly 0.40mH

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-1989-047mh-jantzen-air-core-wire-coil.html

So my question regarding this is if 399 uH actually is different from 400 uH, or if I should just think about that as the same?

When looking a bit closer, and at the datasheet, I realize that the resistance of Janzen 18AWG/0.39mH is 0.32 Ohm.
While AWG17 is 0.24 Ohm

Does this mean that when using Jantzen I should use AWG17 and not AWG 18? As the datasheet states +/- 10% on the Ohm I assume that the different between L2 "400 uH 0.25 Ohm" and L5 "400 uH 0.26 Ohm" is ignorable.
Meaning that my best choice from this Jantzen as this source is this: http://www.hificollective.co.uk/cata...wire-coil.html?
(or this winded down to 0.40)?

[TEK]

It seems like I'm ending up with something like this:



(all cost is in USD)

Comments accepted...

[dar47]

Looks like your on the right track, if the designer in this case Jon indicates a part number with a slightly different DCR I have no problem with it. If using just the circuit as a reference I try to match the value and if I have to because of availability I go for a larger gauge with a smaller DCR to not increase the circuit total resistance. Looks like that's the path you took. Don't think 399uf to 400 is a big deal, usually that's what that brand makes. Only other sub would be the MR's in the tweet but that's a big hit both Ben and I went for.:B

Lots of parts if your putting them in the cabinet so plan carefully to leave room for those woofers.

[TEK]

To say that I have "taken a path" is a bit of an overstatement.
I honestly have no clue about what I'm doing. But at least I do kindof start to know what values to look at and by looking both at the crossover design from the reference thread as well as your setup I kindof get a understanding about what can be replaced with what.
In general I have also got the idea that the high quality parts is best used in the tweeeter and mid section where you are most able to hear subtle differences.

From your comment I get that you go for higher ohm instead of the closes value to not increase the redistance, and thats the reason for selecting 18AWG at 0,28 ohm instead of 17AWG at 0,24 ohm for the scematic values of 0,25 and 0,26 ohm.
Maybe I should swap the 17AWG with 18AWG to apply to this principel?

[JonMarsh]

It seems like I'm ending up with something like this:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]24143[/ATTACH]

(all cost is in USD)

Comments accepted...

A quick scan and I agree with dar47- keep in mind that actual tolerance on parts is generally 5%, for higher grade parts, so something like 399 and 400 are essentially identical. Also, note that many film cap manufacturer's have higher manufacturing precision than they let on, so it's not uncommon for parts to consistently be 2-3% low . But still in spec. Same could be the case for inductors.

I'll go through your list this evening- got a busy day in the office today!

[Renron]

Tek,
It's not uncommon to purchase a larger value inductor / choke and unwind it to get the exact value you want. I bought an El Cheapo L/C/R meter just for this purpose, $16, and it's VERY accurate surprisingly. I've checked it against know values of brand new inductors from P.E. and Madisound for a baseline. http://www.ebay.com/itm/A6243L-Digit...item20e7a06805
Concerning the resistance (R) value of the inductor, the heaver gauge wire will have less resistance and provide more energy to the circuit. Think of adding a r02 (.02 resistor) in series with a driver, I doubt even "Doc" could hear that. (Did I just Blaspheme?) Don't sweat minor differences as Doc said 5% +/- of 100 can be either 95 or 105. Heck, differences between drivers themselves are often more than 5%. Probably not with the quality drivers we're working with, but more often than you would think.
When in doubt, use the same value inductor but thicker wire. ie; 17ga. instead of 18ga.
Ron

[TEK]

Thanks all of you.
After going trought the list I see that I will not be able to source all I need from the supplier I was going for. It seems like I will be going for PartsExpress/Madison.
I will have to update the part list and publish a revised version later today.

[TEK]

Anyone know what this can be replaced with?
"Erse 1,5mH, 16awg, 0,126ohm, iron core with disc", item number 266-900 at PartExpress.

A totally different note. I find that Jentzen is very expencive at parts express. Example: a 56uF, 400V crosscap is $19.41 at PartsExpress while $10,7 at hificollective... 4 of those means a price difference of $35
Btw: if anyone is interested, here is a rather extensive cap test: http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

[JonMarsh]

It can be replaced with a similar value (1.5mH) laminated iron core inductor, similar resistance, 500W. The laminated core is necessary to increase the permeability so that not many turns of wire are needed, and thus the DCR is kept low. I just don't know what's available in Northern Europe...

[TEK]

Basically this:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/-c-61_174.html (Mundorf, Duelund, Glasshouse and Jantzen)
But I will probably place one order at hificollective and one at PartsExpress - as I probably will get the parts for the In-Khan-Neatos from there anyway. But PartsExpress is out of stock for 266-900, so I have to find a replacement anyhow I do it.

[TEK]

Will this work?
000-5203 1.5mH Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs AWG15, 1.4 diameter wire, DCR 0,12R
here:

https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-15mh-15-awg-p-core-inductor-crossover-coil--255-104

or here:

http://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/000-5203-1-5mh-jantzen-iron-core-coil-with-disc.html

[TEK]

Upgraded version. I found that I'm saving approximate 300 usd on sourcing most of the jantzen and resistors from hificollectivet.
As mentioned I will add a order for the In-Kahn parts to Parts Express anyway - so it's no problem to get stuff from both locations.

Alternative #1:


Alternative #2:
Upgrade tweeter section to Clarity MR caps, as well as one in the mid-section (the Jantzen z-standard)

I see that I cut the total on this, it's 1176. The extra cost is all from for the ClarityCaps in the tweeter section.

For both alternatives I'm very unsure about the item for L4 as I miss some knowledge to evaluate my own suggestion.
If someone see something that should have been changed - please give me a hint.
When it comes to upgrading/changing caps I think that if I change anything it should be to move the sound signature towards "warm" and avoid sharpness and those high s' sounds.

[JonMarsh]

Will this work?
000-5203 1.5mH Jantzen Iron Core Coil with Discs AWG15, 1.4 diameter wire, DCR 0,12R
here:

https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-15mh-15-awg-p-core-inductor-crossover-coil--255-104

or here:
http://www.hificollective.co.uk/cata...with-disc.html

Yes, it likely would. I'd just hope there isn't any significant inductance variation in the quoted power operating range. 300-400 watts at 8 ohms (two drivers in series, you know) is a fair bit of SPL, after all. ...

[JonMarsh]

When it comes to upgrading/changing caps I think that if I change anything it should be to move the sound signature towards "warm" and avoid sharpness and those high s' sounds.

And understandable choice, but... it could be limiting the evolution of the system. Some of the caps that are nominally "warm" also are not all that transparent. My personal finding is that caps with the mechanical rigidity due to a tubular cased construction contribute less capacitor resonance and coloration. OTOH, I do prefer the specified Jantzen caps over the silver version of them; those do seem to emphasize the top octave, and unless you have really premium source components, that can be a problem.

[TEK]

Yes, it likely would. I'd just hope there isn't any significant inductance variation in the quoted power operating range. 300-400 watts at 8 ohms (two drivers in series, you know) is a fair bit of SPL, after all. ...

Would this be a safer choice?

https://www.parts-express.com/jantzen-audio-15mh-14-awg-c-coil-toroidal-inductor-crossover-coil--255-804

[Renron]

Tek,
Look at this inductor;

https://www.solen.ca/pub/index.php?catalog=description&nodiapo&id=847&recherche=&numRows=100&manufacturiers=&niveau1=1&niveau2=4&niveau3=70&s1=2&s2=&s3=&s4=

They manufacture their own, Less $$$ too.
14ga. should have zero problems with max wattage.
Ron

[TEK]

Thanks, but you must remember that I'm in Norway, the shipping fee will add additional 50 usd to the cost...
That's why I would prefer something available from PartsExpress or Hificollective.
So if a part from there is usable - it will still be much cheaper even if the part itself is quite more expensive.

[JonMarsh]

Would this be a safer choice?
https://www.parts-express.com/jantze...-coil--255-804

Maybe, maybe not- I've used some of the C core inductors in the past, but they measure strangely- at low signal drive, like from an LCR meter, they often read 15-20% high, but when you drive them with more current, it drops in to the right range. Laminated steel bobbins haven't exhibited that behavior.

[TEK]

Hmm just came to think about something...
when Parts-Express says back in stock 06/12/2015, what month is that? June or december?

[---k---]

In the USA, 6/12/15 is June 12.

[TEK]

You crazy americans
Then there is no problem - I just have to wait a few days and order then... I tough that it was 15. december ops:

(who find it logical to have month, day and then year???)

[TEK]

Time to glue on the second baffle.
Drilling holes (4mm) for the wirering for both the mid and the tweeter.
Each cabel goes trough the hole and is a quite exact fit.
Also drill some holes for the tweeter cables.
All wires are glued on/around to make an air- tight seal between the cable and the box.
As the wires goes out on the back of the mid-tone chamber, I had to get my child to help me pull them out. Her hands are a bit smaller than mine ;-)




The mid-tone chamber is filked with 2 layers of 1cm thick damping mat. The back wall gets one layer.



The same threatment for the tweeter cables as for the cables for the mid.


The baffle is finally glued on and clamped down for pressure!.

[TEK]

Now to that crossover.
If no-one has any input about things I should reconsider, I'll start ordering the parts very soon.

[kevinm]

Looking great, Tek!s

And in reference to the month/day thing, I agree. Would love if we switched to the metric system as well. You month then day is hard, trying working in inches, feet, and yards!

[TEK]

OK, then all the stuff from hificollective has been ordered.
Hope I got it right - lots of stuff.

I had to replace 2 of the Jantzen z-sup (for C2B2) with CliartyCap ESA because they only had two Jantzen z-sup in stock.
For the tweeter section I changed one of the ClarityCap from a 400v to a 650v, that was also due to stock.
Hope that will work out OK.
The parts from PartsExpress will have to wait until the Erse iron core inductor as well as the Dayton tweeter for the In-Khan-Neatos comes back in stock.

Final crossover ended up like this:

[Renron]

I'm really enjoying the pictures of your build. Thanks TEK!
Another month or so I'm hoping I can get started on my pair.
Thanks for posting the Parts list too.

Ron

[TEK]

Thanks for the interest and the kind words.

Today I have started sanding down the speakers.
Completed the first one.

Before I started sanding I wanted to ensure that the speakers was not filled with dust, as I have already started to add damping and fill inside them.

I first tougth I should use paper and tape.


That was quite a bit of work, and the result was not very good. Also, it was no easy way to remove it - for example to use the deiver cutouts to carry/handle the speakers (they are really heavy to move around - and thats before addong all drivers, crossover and so on).

Instead I used some 3mm MDF and cut out plates to use.
For the round cutouts I used the router with my circle jig.
For the other holes I used the template but just cut out the plates using a sharp knife.


After the plates was cutout it was put onto the
speaker to protect the inside.


A plate at the bottom as well.
Here the bottom is completely sanded down.


As mentioned before, I completed the sanding for one of the speakers. Will complete the second ome later (this week)

[TEK]

Had a tiny bit of progress, trying to keep at least a little progress even if the progress is quite slow...

Both speakers are now sanded down.
I have also test mounted the bases (just using two screeves), mostley to be able to put them down on the floor without having to worry about the bottom beeing scratched.

Also I have cut all 3mm mdf plates for the side panels and glued then up for one speaker. That one is currently under pressure.
I overcut the side panels quite a bit as I expected them to be quite "slippery" when bering glued.
Very happy for that now - they were absolutely very slippy and I do not think I would have got it right with an excact fit.
Ohh, yhea - I'm using one speaker as a pressure on the other
one, as I did not find a scrap piece large enough right then.

So, pretty much the usual stuff...

[JonMarsh]

Looking VERY good, TEK! :T So good, I even sent a few of your pictures by email to GF, asking her if these looked familiar- her first question was where are they being built!

She wants to come to Norway someday for one of the polar bear tours...

[TEK]

Thanks Jon
If you come anywhere near Trondheim be sure to give me a notice!
When it comes to polar bears, they run around in the street here, but that's no problem - we have learned the kids to just poke them in the eyes if they get too close!

[dar47]

Ha ha here in Churchhill Manitoba, North of Winnipeg they have high tundra vehicles to watch them and the play grounds are fenced but ya they wonder right through town on their way to the ice.

Looking forward to the veneering and it looks like you chose the smaller base, are the xovers going in the cabs on 3 boards?

[TEK]

I prefer the looks of the smaller base, so I decided to go for that.
The plan is to have the crossover inside the cabinet.I have not considered the number of boards jet, but I assume I will do the same as the others. If they used 3 then I will to.

When it comes to veneering I have to say that I'm rather nervous, but excited at the same time.
Not sure if it will turn out as I want - but we'll see. The time for doing the job is closing :-)

PS: if you want to see polar bears you have to go to Svalbard, that lies out in the sea quite a bit away from rest of Norway. In the Norwegian mainland you will have a hard time finding any polar bears ;-)

[JonMarsh]

I prefer the looks of the smaller base, so I decided to go for that.
The plan is to have the crossover inside the cabinet.I have not considered the number of boards jet, but I assume I will do the same as the others. If they used 3 then I will to.

When it comes to veneering I have to say that I'm rather nervous, but excited at the same time.
Not sure if it will turn out as I want - but we'll see. The time for doing the job is closing :-)

PS: if you want to see polar bears you have to go to Svalbard, that lies out in the sea quite a bit away from rest of Norway. In the Norwegian mainland you will have a hard time finding any polar bears ;-)

That's exactly where the trip goes to that she wants to go on, now that Antarctica is off her bucket list... I was showing her yesterday just how far north Svalbard is, it's particularly stunning when you compare it to the latitude of locales in North America, as it's well north of the Arctic circle, about half way between the mainland of Norway and the North Pole.

[TEK]

I would really like to go there myself, but that will have to wait until the kids are grown older.

No, while I'm slowly glue up the side panels I want to ask you all something.
I currently have a 7.1 setup (where the .1 actually is 3 subs). The Ardents will replace my current front speakers.

I'm wondering what others that combine theater sound and two channel hifi sound in the same setup use for electronics.

[JonMarsh]

I've done that, running the line level output from processor into stereo preamp, taking note of the volume control setting needed for balance with the rest of the rig. Some preamps have HT bypass mode for providing a fixed gain input mode (my Ayre).

[dar47]

i guess it's okay to pass through your receiver or pre-pro to a pre-amp as long as your not touching the signal (straight through wire not source direct from the receiver). Maybe just me but I don't know if the source direct mode is truly direct.

I prefer the pre-amp getting the signal first from the source and using built in HT bypass in the pre-amp to the pre-pro or receiver.

The only question with running subs with your Ardents for music only is what's doing base management? My Emo XSP-1 pre-amp, has base management and HT bypass for this purpose but I really like passing full range signal from the XSP-1 to my Behringer Inuke amp that has better base management for the subs for music and theater. Giving the signal first to a pre-amp with bypass seams easier for component switching when going from music to theater or the other way around.

How are you eqing the 3 subs? Are you going to use the subs for music only? Do you EQ each sub differently? Is your pre-amp as good as running a stand alone DAC acting as a pre-amp for digital source? I tested my NAD M51 dac only verses running the XSP-1 for volume control and there is no difference I can hear so this is much more convenient. Are you going to spin vinyl and if so does the pre-amp have a good phono stage? Mine does so it's one less piece of gear needed. My son Ben is struggling with finding a pre-amp he likes to do all of this as he is not a fan of the XSP-1's looks. I told him that this what doors are for. :rofl:

So for me it's source to NAD M51 to XSP-1 to amp and full range base to Inuke for the subs. Had a TT and may add one again later too.

[TEK]

Hi

Thanks for your input.

I currently have the following equipment:
HTPC (source 1)
TV-Tuner (source 2)
XBox One (source 3)
Marantz SR 7006 (receiver)
Thule PA350B (power amp, 8 Ohm: 2x 350W / 5x 120W)
Behringer Feedback Destroyer Pro (not currently used)

My music playback source is my HTPC, either using JRiver or Tidal Hifi. All my CD's and DVD's and Blu-Rays are ripped to disc using lossless format.

My sources is connected to the receiver using hdmi.
Thule is used as power amp for the main speakers (a setting in the receiver let med redirect the sound to an external amp)
The receiver has 2 sub outputs. One is going to the two front sub's. The second is going to the 3rd sub (placed in the back of the room).
All sub's are EQ'ed togheter as one sub. I'm currently only using the built-in EQ in the Receiver.
(The Behringeris not installed it into the chain due to some leveling problems at first attemt)

I would assume that my main week point is the receiver and that there is room for improvements here.
I'm thinking there are two ways to go from here:
1) Upgrade the receiver. Either to
a) a better receiver
or
b) to a separate processor/amp solution.
or
c) keep the receiver and processor part and increase on the amp side
For a) I could get a kick ass receiver and keep my current amp in 2 channel mode
For b) I could get a kick ass processor and go for 2 DIY mono amp's for the mains and use my current amp in 5 channel mode (120W x5) for the other speakers.
For c) I could do the same as for b) but my current receiver would still be used as a processor

2) Add a separate audio path for stereo
This would mean having a separate output from the PC to a dac/preamp, and from that preamp into the amp. This setup would mean that I would get 2 different input sources to the amp and some how would need to be able to switch between them. My current amp has regular and balanced inputs. That might be used to support to input sources. If I go for this, the preamp would probably be a DIY tube amp ;-)
I could of course also combine this solution with alternative 1 c).
In this setup I'm not sure how to utilize the sub's...

Alternative 2 would mean a bit of "turning on/over" when doing a stereo listening session. In real life it would probably mean that the receiver "audio path" normally would be used, and that I would then "turn over" when sitting down to do some high quality listening sessions.
If I understand you correct Dar47, this is your solution - but you pass the signal from the pre-amp and then trough the receiver while using source direct?
As you see from my idea I was thinking about actually bypassing the receiver all together and go directly from the pre-amp to the amp, but that will cause to input sources to the amp and some method to switch what input is used. Hmm, maybe a DIY amp with the option to have too input sources and something (for example a 12V trigger) to define what source to actually use?

Alternative 3 would be to say that "it's good enough - save your money and build the kick ass center you original planned instead" ;-)