Dayton Classic WMTMW

[mpotoka]

Well I'm listening to something..I feel like my measurements are a bit suspect though. I don't ever remember this jaggieness on my impedance measurements....other strange thing is I could only get the impedance measurements to work properly with my Firewire Solo and I could only get the FR measurements to work properly with my Mobile Pre. Kind of annoying--I'm about to turn one of my linux machines into a windows 98 testing box..

[CupCak3]

Can you comment on listening impressions thus far?

[mpotoka]

Can you comment on listening impressions thus far?

You don't really want my listening impressions yet. I have a cobblejocked XO sitting on my desk with values "close" to what I think i want (maybe values within 30%) Then I heard some hissing--my laptop is too noisy so I switched to a different computer (maybe the noisy laptop is messing with the measurements even though I can't hear it in headphones) Then I thought to myself "Where's the bass????" Then I remembered the amp I am using is the sub of my computer sub-sat setup and figured it has some sort of filter inside it for the speaker outs. I hooked it up to a different amp and listened finally to a little bit of full range music.

I've been out of the office most of the day today--so I haven't been able to listen again. I will probably bring it home today and listen over the weekend (where I can flex its muscle a bit more)

From what I have heard--I have been pleased with how they sound. I do not have the most trained ear--maybe -----------k----------- wants to get together for a pre-crossover listen/comparison with his Khanspires....

[CupCak3]

hint hint ---------------k---------------




Well its sounds like you've made some good progress! Perhaps you could convince my boss that I can do projects like this at work... without getting fired

[---k---]

From what I have heard--I have been pleased with how they sound. I do not have the most trained ear--maybe -----------k----------- wants to get together for a pre-crossover listen/comparison with his Khanspires....

I wouldn't ever claim to have a trained ear. I'm free most Saturdays. PM me.

[Curt C]

I want to know if there is any issue with the location of the port in relation to the bottom woofer. If anything the port would get shortened about 3"-4". Here is a pic to illustrate what I am talking about. The picture is not a very good angle--I would say the top of the flare is about in the middle of the woofer.

When calculating what the length of the port is--do I measure from the outside of the flared edge or from the interior of the box? It would make a 1.5" difference depending where I measure.

Ever blown across the top of a pop bottle?:B
Every design is fraught with compromises, and yours is that pesky long port. If it were my design, I'd prefer using an elbow to move the port flare out of direct competition with the lower woofer, but at this stage, I'd say go for it and see what happens, as in its present position its somewhat blocked by the woofer magnet assembly. You can always go back in through the woofer hole and modify the port with an elbow later, if required.

Port length is measured from outside to outside. Depending on how you calculated the port length, you have to add additional length to compensate for the flares. Precision port has instructions on how to do this at their website.

C

[mpotoka]

Ever blown across the top of a pop bottle?:B
Every design is fraught with compromises, and yours is that pesky long port. If it were my design, I'd prefer using an elbow to move the port flare out of direct competition with the lower woofer, but at this stage, I'd say go for it and see what happens, as in its present position its somewhat blocked by the woofer magnet assembly. You can always go back in through the woofer hole and modify the port with an elbow later, if required.

Port length is measured from outside to outside. Depending on how you calculated the port length, you have to add additional length to compensate for the flares. Precision port has instructions on how to do this at their website.

C

Yes I realize--I didn't think of it in such simple terms though. How about going to a 3" port, or do I need to worry about chuffing then? At tuning I see about 44 mph at xmax...

If I put an elbow in it would push the port awfully close to the back wall.

I did some listening yesterday with my spare parts I had sitting around. The woofers were doing fine. The 5 1/4" sounded like they may have been clipping--I don't think they were bottoming. To me it sounded more like a popping noise than a mechanical banging type of noise. I had a 68 uf cap on them...

I also had issues with how low the tweeter was trying to play--when I tried to turn it up (of course I was sitting in a 42000 cubic foot room so that didn't help) it got real distorted and real sloppy. I unfortunately didn't have my laptop with me that I had modeled the crossover with--again they were purely close values (is there a way to reverse engineer a crossover point? Put in an values and it will tell you approximately what you are adding) maybe PCD has some reverse-function like that... I am not excited to learn the science behind how a cap or inductor work (but I probably should) Is there a "Crossover Science for Dummies" book out there?

Anyway it was informative and gives me somewhere to work from. I really wish I had the speaker at home so I could listen more often. This week I plan on finish the building of the 2nd (I'm about 80% done with it) and I should have an opportunity to get them painted in a heated part of the building at work. That's my goal at least--Then I can bring them home and take my time tuning the crossover.

[Curt C]

Yes I realize--I didn't think of it in such simple terms though.

Yes. Well, that's me: Mr. Simple...:duh:

How about going to a 3" port, or do I need to worry about chuffing then? At tuning I see about 44 mph at xmax...

We used 3" flared ports in the Statement design, and no ones ever complained about chuffing there. Seriously, see how what you have works, and if it does, there is no need to reinvent the wheel...

C

[mpotoka]

Well--I actually measured my box and braces and whatnot--I actually am sitting at a net volume right now of 73.7 l not counting any stuffing. The full length 4" Precision Port actually gives me a tuning of right about 25 hz--that works out pretty well. What I may do since I only have 1 4" tube right now is when I place another order I will order a 3" Precision Port and put that in box number 2. It will be a fun experiment if nothing else. A 3" port will only need to be about 9" to achieve the same tuning...

[mpotoka]

Ok--some progress. Couple of coats of paint--will have to wait a couple days to sand and finish.

[Dean100]

Looking good! :T

[jkrueger]

What a relief

What good news. I was starting to worry. My wife is visiting on the Mainland, and today she bought us our new house. Good news is I get a double garage...no cars. Of course such a palace of manliness will need some fantastic new speakers. Keep up the good work. ;x(

[mpotoka]

Well I called the painting done--I will take some pictures later today. I redid all measurements and measured both boxes. I am very excited about how they sound! I listened for about an hour last night after all cleaning up. It reminded me of when I first built my Modula MTs--I just wanted to sit for hours and listen. I put together a test computer--all the work i went through with trying a USB and Firewire card just weren't worth it (at least for now) Unmoving impulses make life so much easier with speaker workshop.

Attached are the frd and zma files--Curt if you were able to throw something together it would be fun for me to build an alternative XO just to see how they sound. My current XO dips to 3.24 ohms and my T-amp seemed to complain a bit (albeit its 4 ohm rating)

Or not--file too big. Where to host bigger files? Or should I just email them?

[Curt C]

Attached are the frd and zma files--Curt if you were able to throw something together it would be fun for me to build an alternative XO just to see how they sound. My current XO dips to 3.24 ohms and my T-amp seemed to complain a bit (albeit its 4 ohm rating)

Or not--file too big. Where to host bigger files? Or should I just email them?

Just email them to me, along with any info on how the measurements were done, in room, gating, measurement axis, etc. I'll see what I can whip up...

C

My email address is on my website...

[CupCak3]

I'm glad to hear you're enjoying them! I can't wait to see how the xovers for these guys turn out.

[HareBrained]

There's something about toiling over a speaker design and then finally getting to listen to it that keeps you building more of them. It's like being a hacker at golf. You cuss and curse and spend far more time finding the ball than hitting it. But then you hit that one shot that makes you feel like you could beat Tiger, and it's what has you going back to the course again.

Congrats on getting them finished. When do you actually move? My wife would love if I could find a job in Victoria. We've been up there many times and she always get this "I'm home." look about her (she is Canadian.)

[---k---]

We should schedule a date in May for a get together.

[jkrueger]

Moving to Abbotsford.....highjack?

Hey Harebrained

You mixed up your diyers. I am moving....not creating this cool speaker. (I will be building my own copy of them though.) I love it in Victoria. It is a great place to live. My new son needs his grandparents though. We will be off to the mainland at the end of the school year. June..ish.

[HareBrained]

Hey Harebrained

You mixed up your diyers. I am moving....not creating this cool speaker. (I will be building my own copy of them though.) I love it in Victoria. It is a great place to live. My new son needs his grandparents though. We will be off to the mainland at the end of the school year. June..ish.

Sorry. ops: I think I read right thru the bottom of the posts into yours. Thanks for the feedback on Victoria.

[jkrueger]

cost estimate?

mpotoka

Do you think that you could "ball park" your crossover costs? Do you think that this design is good enough to benefit from premium crossover parts?

[Undefinition]

Sorry to just drift into this conversation uninvited... ops: But mpotoka, where do you live? If it's in Chicagoland, I'd like to hear these some time as well.

[---k---]

Paul, He's near-south, in the City.


I'm willing to host a small get together in May. I would host a big bash, but my room really isn't setup for more that a pair of listeners at a time.

[mpotoka]

Yep--I live in the south loop. A get together sounds great. I could probably host an event as well--I've got a room that will easily seat 200 people.

[mpotoka]

mpotoka

Do you think that you could "ball park" your crossover costs? Do you think that this design is good enough to benefit from premium crossover parts?

Well the XO I'm running right now costs $99.60 in the parts express basket. (for the pair). Added in the 10 drivers brings the cost up to 296.52. Adding the 2 ports and the terminal cups makes it 330.10. Now I put some Sonic Barrier on the walls--I used up 4 sheets of the 1/2" stuff so that would bring the total to $362.70. This uses electrolytics on the 3 big caps for the Woofer/Mid crossover, and 1 Iron core and 1 P-core inductor. I am not in a position in any way to suggest if premium XO parts would be worth it or sound better--it isn't an argument I've read much about or discussed with anyone.

Also--it looks like if you purchased the Recession Destroyer kit--you could save about $30 from my total.

I may need to sort out some measurement issues before I'm ready to publish any specifics on the XO I'm using.

[mpotoka]

Sorry to just drift into this conversation uninvited... ops: But mpotoka, where do you live? If it's in Chicagoland, I'd like to hear these some time as well.

Paul,

I'd be happy to let you come by and listen any time--I'd be even more happy if you happened to have a calibrated mic that you could bring along! I greatly have the need to send in one of my mics to get calibrated...

I do live in the South Loop--the speakers are at my work which is at 16th and State Street South (next door to where they are building the new Columbia College Media Production Facility--it will be pretty neat to get into a few of their studios/screening rooms during the construction phase)

[NyxOne]

Hey mpotoka,

I'd like to know how your Classic Dayton Tower turned out ? Have you finished them ? Any crossover layout we can feast our eyes on ?

This project is really interesting considering the performance/cost.

Let's us know how it's going on!

Chuck

[mpotoka]

Hey mpotoka,

I'd like to know how your Classic Dayton Tower turned out ? Have you finished them ? Any crossover layout we can feast our eyes on ?

This project is really interesting considering the performance/cost.

Let's us know how it's going on!

Chuck

Chuck

I knew I was due for an update! I took some pictures this morning but won't be able to post them for a couple days. They are finished and living in my living room and I am enjoying them greatly.

Here's the Filter:



Here's a picture (compliments of Curt) showing the filters, phase, and impedance.



Here's my measured response (1/8th octave smoothed, spliced on-axis w/ groundplane)



I'll write more and post some pictures in the next day or so.

Cheers
Mike

[jkrueger]

Very Excited!! New garage speakers here I come!

Sweet! I can hardly wait to get my partsexpress basket full up. Would it be too much trouble for you to post a BOM? I am really looking forward to another build.


Jon :T ;x( :B :E 8O :T :B ;x( :B :rofl:

[NyxOne]

Hey Mike,

thanks for the update! I was following this thread with interest. This project looks like a lot of fun to me!

It might be interesting to know how your listening session went! Some suggestive comment are always welcome and fun to read.

I'm eager to see how they look finished! I'm sure they are terrific! :B

Edit : I just want to know, have you crossed the tweeter at around 1700-1800 ?!? If so, isn't that a bit low for this tweeter ?

Chuck

[mpotoka]

Bom:

Qty Part # Description

2 004-2 Dayton DNR-2.0 2 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
2 004-4 Dayton DNR-4.0 4 Ohm 10W Precision Audio Grade Resistor
6 027-352 47uF 100V Non-Polarized Capacitor
2 027-356 68uF 100V Non-Polarized Capacitor
4 027-430 Dayton DMPC-12 12uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
2 027-432 Dayton DMPC-15 15uF 250V Polypropylene Capacitor
2 260-303 Recessed Speaker Terminal Banana 5-Way Binding Posts
2 266-315 0.30mH 14 AWG Perfect Layer Inductor
4 295-310 Dayton DC200-8 8" Classic Woofer
2 268-350 Precision Port 3" Flared Port Tube Kit
2 266-562 4.0 mH 18 AWG Iron Core .39 Ohm DCR
2 275-075 Dayton DC28FS-8 1-1/8" Shielded Silk Dome Tweeter
4 295-302 Dayton DC130BS-4 5-1/4" Classic Shielded Woofer 4 Ohm
2 255-110 Jantzen 2.7mH 15 AWG P-Core Inductor

[mpotoka]

Hey Mike,

thanks for the update! I was following this thread with interest. This project looks like a lot of fun to me!

It might be interesting to know how your listening session went! Some suggestive comment are always welcome and fun to read.

I'm eager to see how they look finished! I'm sure they are terrific! :B

Edit : I just want to know, have you crossed the tweeter at around 1700-1800 ?!? If so, isn't that a bit low for this tweeter ?

Chuck

I haven't had a ton of time to listen to these yet. I'm out of town (and didn't try to bring them with) So I don't have a lot of comments. They sound big--a lot bigger than my Modula's sounded. They do not quite sound as crisp or dymanic as the modula's however (to be expected--RS level drivers vs classics) They actually sound better than I expected, so I am really happy about that. They get loud--easily--but again haven't had a good chance to work them out yet. They will be on display at the DIY Indiana event this coming Saturday--so hopefully there are lots of other people's comments.

Concerning the tweeter XO point--The tritrix were designed with effectively a 4th order at 1450 hz using the same tweeter http://www.geocities.com/cc00541/Tritrix_pg_2.html

[---k---]

Very nice. I like.

[1Michael]

I recently built a MTM with that 8'' woofer and the 020 silky tweeter tuned to I think 32Hz for my sister and the total project cost was only $300. I will post that design soon. These drivers do sound Very good for the cost :T

[NyxOne]

Nice job Mike! They are just like i pictured them! I really love the look of a large WMTMW tower! ;x(

I didn't realized that the Tritrix were crossing the tweeter so low!? Hummm ... curt know what his doing so I guess it's ok!

I've just noticed the wheel under. Great idea, your wife can't complain that they are hard to move around!

They do not quite sound as crisp or dymanic as the modula's however (to be expected--RS level drivers vs classics)

For the price, I don't think anyone can complaint! :B

Good luck for the "DIY Indiana event" and don't forget to let us know what people think of it!

Chuck

[jkrueger]

Are we there yet?

I am just wondering if there is any more discussion to be had regarding this design. I intend to go for it, but I would like to wait until all design changes have taken place. I apologize for sounding impatient. I am not in a hurry. when is the big DIY event? Can we expect some peer comments after this event? The last design I attempted with these classic drivers was unlistenable. I want to feel confident this time as I move forward with these 3-ways.

[mpotoka]

I am just wondering if there is any more discussion to be had regarding this design. I intend to go for it, but I would like to wait until all design changes have taken place. I apologize for sounding impatient. I am not in a hurry. when is the big DIY event? Can we expect some peer comments after this event? The last design I attempted with these classic drivers was unlistenable. I want to feel confident this time as I move forward with these 3-ways.

There have been some different comments but they are fairly scattered. If you search for inDIYana on http://techtalk.parts-express.com you can find what people said. Many people told me they were really impressed with how they sounded--I was actually almost the last person to go at the event and after hearing so many great designs I was worried mine weren't up to par--considering the cost they performed quite well.

I do need to modify the XO just a bit--a couple of people noticed a dip from 200-450 hz (evidenced by the on-axis measurements) but I wasn't sure what to do since my groundplane measurements showed it flat. It is probably an issue of the ground plane measurement not showing the baffle loss properly. I will adjust the XO and BOM later today.

[Paul Ebert]

I heard these at InDIYana and I was impressed with them. Given that the event was 9 days ago and included about 25 designs, I'm not sure I can give much in the way of details, but I liked them irrespective of cost. I did not notice the suckout, but I defer to those with more experienced ears.

I'd say they met their design goals very, very well.

[mpotoka]

Ok I edited the filter--I knocked down the woofer inductor as well as added a series 2 ohm resistor to the mids to bring them down just a touch.

Next step will be for some specific cabinets drawings.

Mike

[HareBrained]

Ok I edited the filter--I knocked down the woofer inductor as well as added a series 2 ohm resistor to the mids to bring them down just a touch.

Next step will be for some specific cabinets drawings.

Mike

Mike, were the environments different between the measurements? This could have accounted for the measurement differences. I suggest you listen to the changes in your environment before you posting the change. Besides, padding the mids is not a good idea. It'll remove some of the dynamics and lower the overall value of your design. Perhaps you need to label it as optional.

[jkrueger]

Soooo?

Does the updated version sound better? Which one do you like better? Which one should I build?

Jon :huh:

[mpotoka]

Ok--Build it with the 4 ohm inductor and pick get a few resistors--.5, 1, 1.5, 2--that you can use yourself to tame down the mids to your taste. My room is big but all hard surfaces everywhere. At the even the room was 8' tall with ceiling tiles and carpet--and about 30 people in the room by the time I auditioned them. Wolf thought the mids were just a little bit hot--its really a personal preference--the joy of DIY.

I am not sure exactly what your expectations are--what is your DIY experience/history?

Mike

[mpotoka]

Mike, were the environments different between the measurements? This could have accounted for the measurement differences. I suggest you listen to the changes in your environment before you posting the change. Besides, padding the mids is not a good idea. It'll remove some of the dynamics and lower the overall value of your design. Perhaps you need to label it as optional.

All measurements taken showed the mids to be slightly more sensitive than the tweeter--I left it as is for the DIY event--and a couple people mentioned it to me--it is certainly optional and really an easy component to pull in and out to voice to taste.

Concering the woofer-mid point--my on-axis measurements showed a large dip but my ground-plane was completely flat. Trying to discern between the baffle loss and floor bounce in my measurement I missed the mark slightly. Next time I'll my speakers higher off the floor when taking the measurements. The room will allow for a 50ms gate except for the floor...

Mike

[jkrueger]

Just a builder

Hey mpotoka

Thanks for the info. I have built 5 plans in the last 3 years. Some I have loved...Two I did not. I don't have measurement equipment, but I have a good ear. I don't mind listening for what I like. Is the "hot" plan with the 4ohm resistor?

Jon

[mpotoka]

Hey mpotoka

Thanks for the info. I have built 5 plans in the last 3 years. Some I have loved...Two I did not. I don't have measurement equipment, but I have a good ear. I don't mind listening for what I like. Is the "hot" plan with the 4ohm resistor?

Jon

The "hot" plan is removing the 2 ohm resistor that is in series before the 47uf cap on the mids. That is the one to "play" with--listen without, then you can try various values to see what you like the best.

[jkrueger]

Two questions... On the 4X8 cut sheet, have you oversized the baffle to flush trim later?..and...Did you end up adding any extra bracing within the cabinets? I have started this project, and will be picking away at it as fall arrives. Anyone interested in pics?